Dalton's make or break year

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 08:22 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: It doesn't really make sense to move on from Dalton unless one of two things happens: he seriously regresses/implodes or they find someone who's as good or better. Not many people in the world can do what Andy Dalton does. Not many active qbs have had regular season records like Dalton had in 2015. 

RGIII's rookie year immediately comes to mind. 

[jj22]

(07-09-2019, 08:51 PM)motoarch Wrote: That's not the point and you know it.

The point is a guy like Tom Brady doesn't need his best players suited up and playing well.  He can toss it to any scrub behind a line made of Swiss cheese and still win.

But there is only 1 TB. Teams been looking for another one for years. Too many teams looking for Franchise qb's to carelessly get rid of one we know can win. Even if he needs the rest of the offense healthy.

I think Dalton gets a bad rep for not being able to elevate players like Brady.

We don't put that pressure on elite qb's like Rodgers.

Brady can do it, Brees, and Wilson. 32 teams, help me name a few you all think can make stars out of their no name receivers and elevate the team around them. Rivers? I'd add Rivers to that list.

[JWW1971]

(07-09-2019, 07:30 PM)BengalChris Wrote: There is no cap hit if the team trades or cuts Dalton. He has no guaranteed money left on his contract.

I was taking the info from this, it says he is a UFA at the end of the 20/21 season and there is a $17m cap hit next year.
Sorry if its incorrect
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/andy-dalton-7750/

[Essex Johnson]

(07-09-2019, 03:57 PM)jason Wrote: Hasn't it been his make or break season for 7 seasons running now?

For the Haters yes

[Bilbo Saggins]

(07-09-2019, 10:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: RGIII's rookie year immediately comes to mind. 

RG3 looked phenomenal until he was racked with injuries. A combination of his injuries and league defenses adjusting to dual-threat QBs were what led to his downfall imo. I used to wonder what would have become of RG3 had he been drafted by a team with a more long-term plan in place. Shanahan wasn't interested in developing RG3 into a pocket qb to protect his longevity, despite RG3 requesting it. 

This year will be interesting to see if the primetime meltdown thing was a ML thing or an AD thing. If he can avoid having his regular couple of "bad Andy" games under the new regime, that'll be a good sign.

[motoarch]

(07-09-2019, 10:19 PM)jj22 Wrote: But there is only 1 TB. Teams been looking for another one for years. Too many teams looking for Franchise qb's to carelessly get rid of one we know can win. Even if he needs the rest of the offense healthy.

I think Dalton gets a bad rep for not being able to elevate players like Brady.

We don't put that pressure on elite qb's like Rodgers.

Brady can do it, Brees, and Wilson. 32 teams, help me name a few you all think can make stars out of their no name receivers and elevate the team around them. Rivers? I'd add Rivers to that list.

I didn't bring tb into the conversation.  Fred did that, ask him.

[Au165]

Make or break years to me are things guys on their rookie contracts have, not guys in their 9th year. We have a good idea of what he is both floor and ceiling and so I don't think it's about how he plays this year as much as where they think the team is at next year in terms of what his future here is going to be. He is a capable NFL starter that when all things are going perfect he can play like a low end top 10 QB. When things aren't going well he can play like a QB somewhere around 20-16 in the league. What we do know is he is going to fall somewhere in that range year in and year out, so it all comes down to what the team thinks they need out of QB play to be successful.

[2MinutesHate]

If they start the rebuild at QB, we are already in trouble. The OL and LBs need to make huge strides this season or it could play out much like last year. My expectations are realistic but hopeful as well.

[*Nately120*]

(07-10-2019, 09:06 AM)2MinutesHate Wrote: If they start the rebuild at QB, we are already in trouble.   The OL and LBs need to make huge strides this season or it could play out much like last year.  My expectations are realistic but hopeful as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the o line is bigger issue than Dalton from now (or from years ago) to the day Dalton retires.

Also, if by some miracle our o line becomes good the last thing we will do is start over at QB.  

[fredtoast]

(07-09-2019, 07:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you're not part of the answer, you're part of the problem.

Exactly!

Since good play from the QB is a HUGE part of the answer we will not get rid of Dalton if he plays well.

[Luvnit2]

(07-09-2019, 01:38 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: Interesting article on players that are on the hot seat this year:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27148634/10-nfl-players-entering-make-break-years-how-leave-2020

I don't see Dalton losing his NFL QB gig for a very long time. He will either be here or will be starting on another team for next 5 to 7 years. Some of our fans do not respect AD, but he is a good NFL QB, not HOF great, but solid.

As for here, I think it depends on the draft in 2020. If we have the #1 overall pick and can get a HOF QB likely possibility, yes AD would probably be gone. If not, he could also end his career here as I don't see him being a greedy guy and type to do a team friendly deal to stay.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-10-2019, 08:10 AM)motoarch Wrote: I didn't bring tb into the conversation.  Fred did that, ask him.

Brady is Brady, but I don't recall him playing behind a bad oline.  Dante Scranecchia may just be the best oline coach the league has ever seen.  I'd call it a toss up between he and Howard Mudd.

[XsandOs]

(07-10-2019, 10:57 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Brady is Brady, but I don't recall him playing behind a bad oline.  Dante Scranecchia may just be the best oline coach the league has ever seen.  I'd call it a toss up between he and Howard Mudd.

That's their recipe. Their OL has always been one of the best in the game.

Then it's their option route concept. After pre-snap motion to determine coverage, Brady knows where he is going with the ball at snap.

Thats why it's so difficult for FA receivers to pick up their system. The receiver has to read the defense and their defender at the line of scrimmage, and adjust their route.

Their offense is amazing when they are in sync.

[*Nately120*]

(07-10-2019, 10:16 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't see Dalton losing his NFL QB gig for a very long time. He will either be here or will be starting on another team for next 5 to 7 years. Some of our fans do not respect AD, but he is a good NFL QB, not HOF great, but solid.

As for here, I think it depends on the draft in 2020. If we have the #1 overall pick and can get a HOF QB likely possibility, yes AD would probably be gone. If not, he could also end his career here as I don't see him being a greedy guy and type to do a team friendly deal to stay.

But aren't we all super pumped that we finally moved on from our 16 years of "solid but not great and wants to be here" HC?  

Yes it could be worse than Dalton, by a mile...but the guy should probably win a SB or two if he's going to be your starter for 16 years.  We've already seen how much fun nearly 2 decades of "not bad" can be.

[motoarch]

(07-10-2019, 10:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Brady is Brady, but I don't recall him playing behind a bad oline.  Dante Scranecchia may just be the best oline coach the league has ever seen.  I'd call it a toss up between he and Howard Mudd.

It was talked about frequently just how bad the online was the year they played the falcons in the super bowl.  All season the long it was a point of discussion.

Anyways bringing Brady into this misses my original point entirely.  My point was some other QBs can still get the job done when they are missing see of there favorite weapons or have injuries at some positions.

Sure Brady is one of them but again I DID NOT BRING HIM INTO THE CONVERSATION.  Fred did that.

I'm saying I don't like Dalton or that he's a bad qb.  I'm am saying he's not a special talent and after 8 years we've had enough of a sample size to know exactly what he is and to know he's probably not going to deliver us a super bowl and there are probably in the teams interest to start thinking about a successor if Zach can't get more out of him than we've seen over the last three years.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-09-2019, 01:47 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I really don't see it. Dalton would have to f-up to not be back in 2020.

I find it odd that players like DeVante Parker, who "...has never had 60 catches or 750 yards in a season..." is on the hot seat, but a guy like John Ross who hasn't had more than 210 yards isn't. It seems that the writer likes to consider dead money in contracts as the biggest motivating factor.

I did enjoy seeing Arte Burns being on the list though.

Dalton may still be back in 2020 but based on how he does this year, the Bengals might decide to draft a 1st round QB in next year's draft to replace Dalton after 2020.

As for John Ross, he's probably somewhat on the hot seat too but Parker is a couple years older than Ross. Therefore, it's assumed Parker "is what he is" whereas Ross still is viewed as having room to grow because of fewer years in the NFL. With that said, I think this is a make or break year for Ross too.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-10-2019, 12:37 PM)motoarch Wrote: It was talked about frequently just how bad the online was the year they played the falcons in the super bowl.  All season the long it was a point of discussion.

Anyways bringing Brady into this misses my original point entirely.  My point was some other QBs can still get the job done when they are missing see of there favorite weapons or have injuries at some positions.

Sure Brady is one of them but again I DID NOT BRING HIM INTO THE CONVERSATION.  Fred did that.

I'm saying I don't like Dalton or that he's a bad qb.  I'm am saying he's not a special talent and after 8 years we've had enough of a sample size to know exactly what he is and to know he's probably not going to deliver us a super bowl and there are probably in the teams interest to start thinking about a successor if Zach can't get more out of him than we've seen over the last three years.

Oh, I agree, but man, I remember watching one of the playoff games against Pitt, and I literally counted 10 seconds when Brady found Hogan in the EZ for what wound up being the TD that sealed the deal.  I certainly wasn't comparing TB to AD, or anyone else for that matter.  I was just adding the bit about how good Scarnecchia is.  He retired, and was begged back after a couple of years out.  I don't remember fully, but I think they missed and/or lost the SB in his absence.  Dude is the best out there right now.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-10-2019, 11:45 AM)XsandOs Wrote: That's their recipe. Their OL has always been one of the best in the game.

Then it's their option route concept. After pre-snap motion to determine coverage, Brady knows where he is going with the ball at snap.

Thats why it's so difficult for FA receivers to pick up their system. The receiver has to read the defense and their defender at the line of scrimmage, and adjust their route.

Their offense is amazing when they are in sync.

....and when that doesn't work, ol Billy brings in a FB and plays smashmouth.  They're simply a juggernaut.

Brady runs it to perfection.

[motoarch]

(07-10-2019, 01:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: Oh, I agree, but man, I remember watching one of the playoff games against Pitt, and I literally counted 10 seconds when Brady found Hogan in the EZ for what wound up being the TD that sealed the deal.  I certainly wasn't comparing TB to AD, or anyone else for that matter.  I was just adding the bit about how good Scarnecchia is.  He retired, and was begged back after a couple of years out.  I don't remember fully, but I think they missed and/or lost the SB in his absence.  Dude is the best out there right now.

I want him to succeed and was a bigger defender of his for a long time but it's gotten hard the last couple years.  Some of it's out of his control.  Losing key receivers, a rotating door of tight ends injured rbs and a make shift oline.  It's hard and he's a class act person to boot.

I'm not a Dalton hater but I do think it's time to consider options if any are available.  If this season is as bad as most 'experts' are predicting we may have a very early draft pick and I wouldn't mind seeing them pick up a potential replacement.

If Taylor has him lighting up the scoreboard I'll happily eat crow.  I'm looking forward to seeing this team surprise the league and would love to see Dalton shut up his critics.  Including me.

[fredtoast]

(07-10-2019, 12:37 PM)motoarch Wrote: My point was some other QBs can still get the job done when they are missing see of there favorite weapons or have injuries at some positions.

But the fact is that Dalton has had several good games when Green was missing and in 2013 when Brady didn't have Gronk the Bengals completely shut down Brady (52.2 rating) the Pats offense (6 points, 248 yds),  and Dalton had a higher passer rating (88.8) for the year than Brady did (87.3).