Dalton's make or break year

[BengalChris]

(07-11-2019, 05:58 AM)kevin Wrote: Good post.  All these were good quarterbacks.  You have to be on a good team.  I could list quarterbacks who won play-off games and some very average names in the list.  It helps to be on a good team.  Some fans think football is all about the quarterback.  It is not.  I have seen teams win NFL Championship/ Super Bowl with a average quarterback but great blocking and tackling.  

In Bengals history you have #1 Ken Anderson. #2 Boomer Esiason. #3 Andy Dalton. #4 Carson Palmer....the list gets pretty weak after that. #5 should be Virgil Carter.  So Dalton is one of the best quarterbacks in Bengals history.  It is not his fault this team can't block or tackle.  Under Mike Brown the Bengals have not had a great O Line and a great Defense at the same time, season after season, as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England and other power house teams.  Those who think it is all about the quarterback really don't know football.  Now the 1980's Bengals had years of great O Line and great Defense, but Paul Brown was still alive.  Once Paul Brown died, his son didn't have a clue, the apple falling too far from the tree. 

As for fans on here. Many had Johnny Manziel coming in being great. The #1 selling jersey that year.  For all those who had McCarron as a super star, it's never happened.  However he did throw to AJ Green what should have been play-off game winning TD, but rest of team just played most stupid football that I've ever seen that last minute.

Again, I don't see how Bengals blocking is going to be better, and the D was awful in 2018.  This is NOT a good team, hence all the coaches fired.  I'm all into NEW DEY,  but I admit going into training camp this is a bad team.   We are lucky to have Dalton at QB because he gives these sad sacks the best chance of winning some games.  How BAD was Bengals at end of season ?  They brought in Hue Stinks.   Some fans actually wanted Hue Stinks to become the coach.  That's pretty BAD and why I'm into NEW DEY, but it might take a few years to turn around this BAD team.  Starting at Seattle is a hard road game for good teams, jet lag into a good crowd and team.

Can't change the fact that Dalton has been absolutely horrible in play off games, even when he had a good team around him.

[fredtoast]

(07-12-2019, 03:00 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Can't change the fact that Dalton has been absolutely horrible in play off games, even when he had a good team around him.

It is only a 4 game sample size.  There have been super bowl QBs who were worse over their first 4 playoff games.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Yes he’s only been absolute dog poop the first 4 playoffs games of his career. Number 5 baby will be different!!!! I can see it now.

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-11-2019, 09:52 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Name me 5 Bengals that have played as badly as Dalton in the playoffs?

Cmp% 55.70
Yds 873 (in 4 games)
1 TD
6 Int
PR 57.8
Fumbles 4

Dodging my question cuz its hard eh?

Here are my five players who have performed just as poorly as Dalton, in respect to how well they perform in the regular season:

(All of the below is based on playoff appearances from 2011-2015)

1. Reggie Nelson (one of my favorite Bengals) - 5 playoff appearances, 0INTs, 0PDs, 0FFs, 2 sacks

2. Carlos Dunlap - 5 playoff appearance, 0.5 sacks, 6 QB hits, 7 solo tackles, 6 assists

3. AJ Green - 4 playoff appearances, 232 yards and 1 TD on 18 receptions, highest yard total of 80 yards. 47 yards, in 2011, 80 in 2012, 34 in 2013, and 71 in 2015 (sure, blame Dalton on this one, at least that argument somewhat holds)

4. Geno Atkins - 4 playoff appearances, 2.5 sacks, 9 solo tackles, 4 assists

5. Gio Bernard - 3 playoff appeances, 21 rushes for 79 yards, 2 fumbles including the costly one in SD that cost us the game IMO



But please, go on about how bad Dalton is while the rest of the team has really stepped up! Has he done well? Hell NO! But nobody else has done anything worth mentioning.

It's sad when our best playoff performer of the Dalton era is Rex freaking Burkhead.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-12-2019, 09:22 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Dodging my question cuz its hard eh?

Here are my five players who have performed just as poorly as Dalton, in respect to how well they perform in the regular season:

(All of the below is based on playoff appearances from 2011-2015)

1. Reggie Nelson (one of my favorite Bengals) - 5 playoff appearances, 0INTs, 0PDs, 0FFs, 2 sacks

2. Carlos Dunlap - 5 playoff appearance, 0.5 sacks, 6 QB hits, 7 solo tackles, 6 assists

3. AJ Green - 4 playoff appearances, 232 yards and 1 TD on 18 receptions, highest yard total of 80 yards. 47 yards, in 2011, 80 in 2012, 34 in 2013, and 71 in 2015 (sure, blame Dalton on this one, at least that argument somewhat holds)

4. Geno Atkins - 4 playoff appearances, 2.5 sacks, 9 solo tackles, 4 assists

5. Gio Bernard - 3 playoff appeances, 21 rushes for 79 yards, 2 fumbles including the costly one in SD that cost us the game IMO



But please, go on about how bad Dalton is while the rest of the team has really stepped up! Has he done well? Hell NO! Buts l nobody else has done anything worth mentioning.

It's sad when our best playoff performer of the Dalton era is Rex freaking Burkhead.

So Carlos Dunlap not racking up sacks is equal to the QUARTERBACK playing like someone in the special Olympics?

This place is hilarious. Sorry that expectations are higher for the most important position, and (usually) the leader of the team.

If your QB isn’t at least competent in the playoffs, you better have the 2000 Ravens or 85 Bears defense out there. But I guess it’s easier to build a team like that than it is to find one guy who doesn’t shit the bed...

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-12-2019, 09:29 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So Carlos Dunlap not racking up sacks is equal to the QUARTERBACK playing like someone in the special Olympics?

This place is hilarious. Sorry that expectations are higher for the most important position, and (usually) the leader of the team.

If your QB isn’t at least competent in the playoffs, you better have the 2000 Ravens or 85 Bears defense out there. But I guess it’s easier to build a team like that than it is to find one guy who doesn’t shit the bed...

Dalton under-performing doesn't overshadow the fact that the entire team has been garbage in the playoffs. That is the point that is going right over your head. 

Hell, you even said earlier that the team sucking and Andy sucking are mutually exclusive. So, when will you admit that the rest of the team has been just as crappy? Your hate for Dalton is blinding you to the fact that it is a team game in which we have been extremely under-prepared, out-coached, and outperformed in EACH playoff game.

I have never said Dalton hasn't looked bad. I've never said we don't need better QB performance in the playoffs. All of that is VERY clear. 

However, if you overlook the fact that your best ball-hawk forced 0 turnovers in the playoffs, or that your two best pass rushers are phased out every game, then you are taking a naive approach to analyzing our playoff failures.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-12-2019, 10:27 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Dalton under-performing doesn't overshadow the fact that the entire team has been garbage in the playoffs. That is the point that is going right over your head. 

Hell, you even said earlier that the team sucking and Andy sucking are mutually exclusive. So, when will you admit that the rest of the team has been just as crappy? Your hate for Dalton is blinding you to the fact that it is a team game in which we have been extremely under-prepared, out-coached, and outperformed in EACH playoff game.

I have never said Dalton hasn't looked bad. I've never said we don't need better QB performance in the playoffs. All of that is VERY clear. 

However, if you overlook the fact that your best ball-hawk forced 0 turnovers in the playoffs, or that your two best pass rushers are phased out every game, then you are taking a naive approach to analyzing our playoff failures.

The point is not going over my head. I don’t even come close to agreeing that those you listed have been as bad as Dalton. Should I list his stats again? He’s been atrocious. Not just mediocre, not just so-so (which is what I’d argue the players you listed have been), he’s been epically bad. Not sure how a WR or RB is supposed to overcome that.

And stop with the stupid “hater” “lover” bs. It’s ridiculous. I’m a Bengals fan. I don’t “hate” anyone that plays for my team. I will however hold players accountable, and not make a million excuses year after year. There’s a reason Dalton gets no respect outside Cincinnati, and his playoff performances are a huge part of that.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Benson stood out in a playoff even with Dalton playing like playoffs Dalton. I doubt any wide receiver can be any good if their quarterback is fumbling the ball like a hot potato. I still recall a wide open Green in the end zone for the game winner only for Dalton throwing it 10 yards into the stands Good memory

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-12-2019, 10:48 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The point is not going over my head. I don’t even come close to agreeing that those you listed have been as bad as Dalton. Should I list his stats again? He’s been atrocious. Not just mediocre, not just so-so (which is what I’d argue the players you listed have been), he’s been epically bad. Not sure how a WR or RB is supposed to overcome that.

And stop with the stupid “hater” “lover” bs. It’s ridiculous. I’m a Bengals fan. I don’t “hate” anyone that plays for my team. I will however hold players accountable, and not make a million excuses year after year. There’s a reason Dalton gets no respect outside Cincinnati, and his playoff performances are a huge part of that.

I don't know why you won't acknowledge the fact that nearly every key player on the team has sucked come postseason. You say you hold the players accountable, yet you only seem to have one player you want to hold truly accountable. Just admit that the entire team in general has been terribad in the playoffs so we can end this argument. 

Oh, and I know, yes, the QB is the most important position. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't believe you can completely throw out the effect of a penetrating D-line or ball-hawking secondary in the playoffs. Dalton has been epically bad as you said, but the rest of the team hasn't done anything to impress either. 

[GreenCornBengal]

(07-12-2019, 10:54 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Benson stood out in a playoff even with Dalton playing like playoffs Dalton.  I doubt any wide receiver can be any good if their quarterback is fumbling the ball like a hot potato.  I still recall a wide open Green in the end zone for the game winner only for Dalton throwing it 10 yards into the stands     Good memory

You're thinking of 09 when we had Carson Palmer. Benson was great in that game, I'll give you that.

Ced played in Dalton's rookie playoff game where he racked up 14 yards on 7 carries. At least he pounded in a 1 yard TD! Don't forget his catch for -2 yards lol

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-12-2019, 03:00 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Can't change the fact that Dalton has been absolutely horrible in play off games, even when he had a good team around him.

How many of those good teams had open receivers in the playoffs that Dalton didn't throw to? I watched every game, I didn't see any, but I am open to new evidence if you have any.

[BengalChris]

(07-13-2019, 07:12 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: How many of those good teams had open receivers in the playoffs that Dalton didn't throw to? I watched every game, I didn't see any, but I am open to new evidence if you have any.

I see. It's someone else fault that Dalton managed 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in 4 playoff games. There's no way to slice his play and say it was even okay.

Now, I'm one who is saying that Dalton isn't on the hot seat this year. But that could change with another bad playoff game.

[t3r3e3]

(07-12-2019, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is only a 4 game sample size.  There have been super bowl QBs who were worse over their first 4 playoff games.

True, but Andy is right there at the bottom of the bell curve with the Dilfers, Williams’s, and Hostetlers of the world. He’s sucked in the Playoffs, period. Passer rating in the 50’s, 1 TD, 8 TO’s.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-13-2019, 05:40 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I see. It's someone else fault that Dalton managed 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in 4 playoff games. There's no way to slice his play and say it was even okay.

Now, I'm one who is saying that Dalton isn't on the hot seat this year. But that could change with another bad playoff game.

I'm saying they were out coached. I hate repeating myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about go here
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-How-Andy-Dalton-reads-defense-as-well-as-anybody-in-the-league

And Gruden didn't run those routes on every play like the Patriots do.

[impactplaya]

I think in the playoffs is where the Qbs start to.seperate themselves.
Andy has been a really good 16 game season QB.
Dalton is going to be 30 31.
if he gets this team to the playoffs he can no longer make rookie mistakes.
its true he hasnt had much help.from other guys.
but the truth is QBs have to truly make plays come playoff time.
they are the tone setters.
its not like Andy has faced a HOF QB on the other side of the ball
cmon who was the other QB Dalton went against
TJ Yates....Phillip Rivers... ( he did very little in that game)
who else am I missing.?
at least in past history Boomer and Kenny out dueled some HOFers....
Fouts...Kelly....?? anybody else?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-13-2019, 08:31 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I think in the playoffs is where the Qbs start to.seperate themselves.
Andy has been a really good 16 game season QB.
Dalton is going to be 30 31.
if he gets this team to the playoffs he can no longer make rookie mistakes.
its true he hasnt had much help.from other guys.
but the truth is QBs have to truly make plays come playoff time.
they are the tone setters.
its not like Andy has faced a HOF QB on the other side of the ball
cmon who was the other QB Dalton went against
TJ Yates....Phillip Rivers... ( he did very little in that game)
who else am I missing.?
at least in past history Boomer and Kenny out dueled some HOFers....
Fouts...Kelly....?? anybody else?

Andrew Luck. That game I’ll give Dalton a bit of a pass for. We were missing multiple WRs.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-13-2019, 08:31 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I think in the playoffs is where the Qbs start to.seperate themselves.
Andy has been a really good 16 game season QB.
Dalton is going to be 30 31.
if he gets this team to the playoffs he can no longer make rookie mistakes.
its true he hasnt had much help.from other guys.
but the truth is QBs have to truly make plays come playoff time.
they are the tone setters.
its not like Andy has faced a HOF QB on the other side of the ball
cmon who was the other QB Dalton went against
TJ Yates....Phillip Rivers... ( he did very little in that game)
who else am I missing.?
at least in past history Boomer and Kenny out dueled some HOFers....
Fouts...Kelly....?? anybody else?

Boomer won the MVP with the number one rushing attack in the NFL, but for some reason, that "MVP QB" only made the playoffs twice in 10 seasons as a Bengals QB and never made the playoffs with the Jets or the Cardinals. This "MVP QB" won two playoff games with that awesome running game and also won once in 1990 against Cody Carlson when Warren Moon was injured. Boomer has a career record of 62-61 with Cincinnati and 80-93 overall. Take away the last season with the Dead Cat Bounce, he was 58-60 in his first 9 seasons as a Bengal. He "led" the Bengals to his only 3 winning seasons as a QB in all 14 seasons. Dalton is 68-50-2 in 8 seasons with 5 winning seasons.


Without a good team, Boomer wasn't making plays but none of the Dalton haters will ever accept that. In the Super Bowl run, he threw for a grand total of 346 yards in three playoff games with 45% completion and a passer rating of 48. Two years later he threw for a total of 254 yards in two playoff games. 

Now, compare the rosters and tell me how many from 2011-2015 would make the roster of the 1988 team? AJ is legit, Whitworth might make the bench but he's not pushing Munoz out of his spot, Reggie Nelson might push Wilcots and Geno most likely wouldn't start over a pre-injury Krumrie. That's it. Coaching staff? No question. Sam Wyche way over Marvin Clewless.

Boomer's only three winning full seasons as a pro, almost all with 28 teams
1986 Bengals #2 in rushing #3 in passing missed the playoffs
1988 Bengals #1 in rushing #11 in passing #1 overall offense (SB Champ Niners #2 in rushing)
1990 Bengals #3 in rushing #15 in passing (with only 28 teams, barely bottom half of the league in passing)
He was 4-1 in 1997, his final year, but the team was only 7-9 in a 30 team league.

Dalton's first four complete seasons, all with 32 teams
2011 Bengals #19 in rushing #22 in passing 
2012 Bengals #19 in rushing #17 in passing
2013 Bengals #18 in rushing #8 in passing
2014 Bengals #6 in rushing #22 in passing(Jeremy Hill's only decent season)

Bottom line, without a good supporting cast, Boomer doesn't do much. He had very little to do with those playoff victories in 1988. Apparently, 1 TD and 3 INT over three games with 115.3 yards per game means glory for life. Only in Cincinnati.

[BengalChris]

Wow! This has turned into the Dalton excuse thread. Has the feel of a "Ross is great if it weren't for everyone else" kind of thread.

[XsandOs]

We were outrushed by almost 300 yards in those 4 playoffs games and had almost a 10 minute time of possession disadvantage per game.

The only years where we had the personnel to advance (2013 and 2015), San Diego used our run scheme against us in 2013 and in 2015 Dalton wasn't playing.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-09-2019, 07:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you're not part of the answer, you're part of the problem.

By this logic, we should dump Atkin and AJ Green if we lose 10 games.

After all, they're not part of the answer. (Remember, this is assuming Dalton plays well and we lose).