Dalton's make or break year

[Joelist]

(07-14-2019, 12:32 AM)XsandOs Wrote: We were outrushed by almost 300 yards in those 4 playoffs games and had almost a 10 minute time of possession disadvantage per game.

The only years where we had the personnel to advance (2013 and 2015), San Diego used our run scheme against us in 2013 and in 2015 Dalton wasn't playing.

The real common factor in the playoff losses was our offensive line being blown off the ball (all of them) and in all but one the defensive live got blown off the ball too. For all some people like to think the Pats OL has not been strong they consistently win at the LOS and especially in the playoffs they do. 

[*jason*]

(07-14-2019, 12:47 AM)Joelist Wrote: The real common factor in the playoff losses was our offensive line being blown off the ball (all of them) and in all but one the defensive live got blown off the ball too. For all some people like to think the Pats OL has not been strong they consistently win at the LOS and especially in the playoffs they do. 

This. ^^^^^

And to your point. The one time that I remember the Patriots o line getting worked over was against the Giants in 2007.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(07-12-2019, 07:56 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Yes he’s only been absolute dog poop the first 4 playoffs games of his career.  Number 5 baby will be different!!!!  I can see it now.

So did Kitna, Palmer, and MacCarron. 

Did the Rams dump their entire roster after "dog poop" performances under Jeff Fisher?

If it's the exact same dog and pony show under a new regime, then we'll know where to lay the blame.

[XsandOs]

(07-14-2019, 12:47 AM)Joelist Wrote: The real common factor in the playoff losses was our offensive line being blown off the ball (all of them) and in all but one the defensive live got blown off the ball too. For all some people like to think the Pats OL has not been strong they consistently win at the LOS and especially in the playoffs they do. 

Patriots OL is the foundation of their success. Followed by, and as extension thereof; is their option route concept.

[XsandOs]

(07-14-2019, 12:47 AM)Joelist Wrote: The real common factor in the playoff losses was our offensive line being blown off the ball (all of them) and in all but one the defensive live got blown off the ball too. For all some people like to think the Pats OL has not been strong they consistently win at the LOS and especially in the playoffs they do. 

In 2013 regular season, the same Bengal OL created a 75+ rushing yards advantage against the Chargers.

The difference in the playoffs was their OL vs our front seven on defense.

[Joelist]

(07-14-2019, 01:08 AM)XsandOs Wrote: In 2013 regular season, the same Bengal OL created a 75+ rushing yards advantage against the Chargers.

The difference in the playoffs was their OL vs our front seven on defense.

And in the playoff game our OL again got blown off the line and yes so did our DL. 

Football starts in the trenches - win those and you go a long way to winning the game. 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-14-2019, 12:05 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wow! This has turned into the Dalton excuse thread. Has the feel of a "Ross is great if it weren't for everyone else" kind of thread.

Sorry you feel that way. That was actually a response to impactplaya's "At least Boomer and Anderson out dueled HOFers. Fouts . . .  Kelly . . . Anybody else?" 

No. The other two QBs that Esiason "beat" were Dave Kreig and Cody Carlson.

If you are going to praise Boomer . . . why? He had way more to work with than Dalton has ever had and still didn't really do a lot but people don't want to remember the truth about their heroes.

Jim Kelly in the Championship game
14-30
165 yards
1 TD - 3 INT
Sacked 3 times for 27 yards

Buffalo 17 rushes for 45 yards

Boomer Esiason
11-20
94 yards
1 TD - 2 INT
Sacked 3 times for 20 yards

Cincinnati 50 rushes for 175 yards

That's what happens as time gets farther away from these events. People act like the Bengals won because of Boomer, which they didn't, but lose because of Dalton. Switch the rushing around and that looks like a breakdown of a typical Marvin Lewis playoff game. The Bengals lost because of Marvin Lewis more than anything else. They were out coached in every playoff game under ML. That happened once under Sam Wyche.

Playoffs under ML
2005 Pittsburgh 34 rushes - 144 yards  . . . Bengals 20 for 84
2009 NY Jets 50 rushes - 171 yards . . . Bengals 22 for 171
2011 Houston 35 rushes - 182 yards . . . Bengals 19 for 76
2012 Houston 39 rushes - 158 yards . . . Bengals 16 for 80
2013 San Diego 40 rushes - 196 yards . . . Bengals 25 for 113
2014 Indianapolis 25 rushes - 114 yards . . . Bengals 21 for 110 - Luck was 31-44 for 376 yards
2015 Pittsburgh 29 rushes - 167 yards . . . Bengals 24 for 91
ML opponents average 36 rushes for 161.7 yards . . . Bengals 21 rushes for 103.4

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2019, 09:52 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Name me 5 Bengals that have played as badly as Dalton in the playoffs?

Cmp% 55.70
Yds 873 (in 4 games)
1 TD
6 Int
PR 57.8
Fumbles 4

Boomer Esiason's '88 postseason the year he won League MVP

Comp% 45.3
Yds 346 (avg 115.3 per game compared to Dalton's 218.8)
1 TD
3 Int
PR 48.0

[Socal Bengals fan]

(07-14-2019, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Boomer Esiason's '88 postseason the year he won League MVP

Comp% 45.3
Yds 346 (avg 115.3 per game compared to Dalton's 218.8)
1 TD
3 Int
PR 48.0

Can you imagine Dalton playing in the 80s my lord his stats would really suck compared to today.

[impactplaya]

Dave Kreig was a very good NFL qb for more than 10 years.
hes one of those QBs thats a tier under a HOF QB.
261 career TD passes in a different era is pretty darn good

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-14-2019, 12:05 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wow! This has turned into the Dalton excuse thread. Has the feel of a "Ross is great if it weren't for everyone else" kind of thread.

July is always 'rush to defend the QB' month. 

Getting close to training camp and everyone forgets how bad they were the previous year.

[impactplaya]

Andy just needs to take that next step as a QB..
lets hope he still.hasnt played his best football yet

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-14-2019, 11:37 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Can you imagine Dalton playing in the 80s my lord his stats would really suck compared to today.

Again, something that people like to look past . . . would he have this team or the Bengals roster in the 80s? You all love Whitworth(Benched under Munoz), or Zeitler(Benched under Montoya). You hate Hart and Andre Smith (Mike Wilson or Joe Walter anybody?). You all have hope for Price(Kozerski puts him on the bench), does Andy take Marvin Lewis with him to the 80s or does he get a good coach like Sam Wyche?

The Bengals did not lose BECAUSE of Dalton, the Bengals lost mostly because of being under prepared and not making proper adjustments(ML). This leads to a lot of players standing around waiting for SOMEONE ELSE to step up and make a play.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-14-2019, 11:37 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Can you imagine Dalton playing in the 80s my lord his stats would really suck compared to today.

That’s why I think it’s best to actually compare him to his own peers. The game has just changed too much to be comparing a QB from the 2010’s to ones that played 30 years ago.

Now there’s a couple things you can look at like completion percentage and passer rating, but total yards is obviously going to be skewed in the favor of the modern day QB. They just didn’t throw as much back then. Here’s the number of passes Boomer attempted in his 3 playoff games in 88 (19, 20, 25). Here’s Dalton’s in his 4 games (42, 30, 51, 35).

[Luvnit2]

(07-14-2019, 03:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s why I think it’s best to actually compare him to his own peers. The game has just changed too much to be comparing a QB from the 2010’s to ones that played 30 years ago.

Now there’s a couple things you can look at like completion percentage and passer rating, but total yards is obviously going to be skewed in the favor of the modern day QB. They just didn’t throw as much back then. Here’s the number of passes Boomer attempted in his 3 playoff games in 88 (19, 20, 25). Here’s Dalton’s in his 4 games (42, 30, 51, 35).

I agree, different rules 30 years ago, defensive backs could mug receivers, QB's could be picked up and thrown to the ground or try and break their neck (Steelers against Kenny Anderson).

They did not throw as much because it was harder to throw it a lot back then.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(07-14-2019, 03:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s why I think it’s best to actually compare him to his own peers. The game has just changed too much to be comparing a QB from the 2010’s to ones that played 30 years ago.

Now there’s a couple things you can look at like completion percentage and passer rating, but total yards is obviously going to be skewed in the favor of the modern day QB. They just didn’t throw as much back then. Here’s the number of passes Boomer attempted in his 3 playoff games in 88 (19, 20, 25). Here’s Dalton’s in his 4 games (42, 30, 51, 35).

The Bengals in the 80s were a running team, not a passing team. But since Boomer touched the ball on every play, people think he was the reason why they won. They won because of James Brooks, Stanley Wilson, and then later Ickey Woods.

It doesn't matter if it was difficult to pass then or not . . . Boomer had three winning seasons out of 14 and only because they were #1 in rushing ('88), #2 in rushing ('86) and #3 '(90).

The 11 seasons Boomer didn't have a top ranked rushing team to carry him, he was a losing QB.

The Bengals won in the 80s because of the running game and Sam Wyche, they lost recently mostly because of Marvin Lewis.

[*Nately120*]

(07-14-2019, 03:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree, different rules 30 years ago, defensive backs could mug receivers, QB's could be picked up and thrown to the ground or try and break their neck (Steelers against Kenny Anderson).

They did not throw as much because it was harder to throw it a lot back then.

I recall hearing an interview with Mel Blount (I think) and he was saying how prior to the new (at the time of the interview) PI rules, the strategy was to knock a WR so far off his route that the QB had to look to see where he was before he threw the ball.  The fact that a timing route is even possible in today's NFL is a testament to how things have changed.

[t3r3e3]

(07-14-2019, 12:32 AM)XsandOs Wrote: We were outrushed by almost 300 yards in those 4 playoffs games and had almost a 10 minute time of possession disadvantage per game.

The only years where we had the personnel to advance (2013 and 2015), San Diego used our run scheme against us in 2013 and in 2015 Dalton wasn't playing.

When the QB turns it over 8 times, produces one TD, and a passer rating in the 50’s you’re playing from behind and losing time of possession. In other words, teams are running on you because you’re losing. While it’s not all on Andy, his pathetic play was a major reason they lost. The bottom line is Dalton is not elite. He’s never going to be a guy who can elevate average personnel groupings to excellence. If the Bengals don’t build an elite defense and a far better o line Dalton likely will never sniff a Playoff win, let alone a Super Bowl.

[BengalChris]

(07-14-2019, 04:18 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Sorry you feel that way. That was actually a response to impactplaya's "At least Boomer and Anderson out dueled HOFers. Fouts . . .  Kelly . . . Anybody else?" 

No. The other two QBs that Esiason "beat" were Dave Kreig and Cody Carlson.

If you are going to praise Boomer . . . why? He had way more to work with than Dalton has ever had and still didn't really do a lot but people don't want to remember the truth about their heroes.

Jim Kelly in the Championship game
14-30
165 yards
1 TD - 3 INT
Sacked 3 times for 27 yards

Buffalo 17 rushes for 45 yards

Boomer Esiason
11-20
94 yards
1 TD - 2 INT
Sacked 3 times for 20 yards

Cincinnati 50 rushes for 175 yards

That's what happens as time gets farther away from these events. People act like the Bengals won because of Boomer, which they didn't, but lose because of Dalton. Switch the rushing around and that looks like a breakdown of a typical Marvin Lewis playoff game. The Bengals lost because of Marvin Lewis more than anything else. They were out coached in every playoff game under ML. That happened once under Sam Wyche.

Playoffs under ML
2005 Pittsburgh 34 rushes - 144 yards  . . . Bengals 20 for 84
2009 NY Jets 50 rushes - 171 yards . . . Bengals 22 for 171
2011 Houston 35 rushes - 182 yards . . . Bengals 19 for 76
2012 Houston 39 rushes - 158 yards . . . Bengals 16 for 80
2013 San Diego 40 rushes - 196 yards . . . Bengals 25 for 113
2014 Indianapolis 25 rushes - 114 yards . . . Bengals 21 for 110 - Luck was 31-44 for 376 yards
2015 Pittsburgh 29 rushes - 167 yards . . . Bengals 24 for 91
ML opponents average 36 rushes for 161.7 yards . . . Bengals 21 rushes for 103.4

In 1988 we had the NFL's #1 offense and it was Boomer who ran it. That's why he was the league MVP.

Anderson won two NFL passing titles by his 5th year in the league. While the total yards were not stellar by today's standards, in that day they were. In those days receivers could be mugged all the way down the field.

Different eras cannot be compared stat wise, especially in the passing game as the rules have been changed a number of time in favor of more passing and scoring.

Then there's the Super Bowl thing. Go there and you are better than the guy who hasn't been close.

[Socal Bengals fan]

The year is 2045 , Trump the 4th is President, California has united with Mexico, we are still debating if Dalton is our guy. Good times ahead