Dalton's make or break year

[XsandOs]

(07-14-2019, 06:26 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote:  The bottom line is Dalton is not elite.  He’s never going to be a guy who can elevate average personnel groupings to excellence.  

GB went 7-9 and 6-9-1 the past two years.

Saints went 7-9 for 3 straight years from 2014 to 2016.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-15-2019, 08:30 PM)XsandOs Wrote: GB went 7-9 and 6-9-1 the past two years.

Saints went 7-9 for 3 straight years from 2014 to 2016.

That doesn't count.

[Catmandude123]

(07-15-2019, 08:30 PM)XsandOs Wrote: GB went 7-9 and 6-9-1 the past two years.

Saints went 7-9 for 3 straight years from 2014 to 2016.

They also won Super bowl in recent memory 2010 2011. But heh that doesn't mean anything. Dalton is = Rodgers, Brees, and Manning. We homers all know that, right fellow homers. Geesh.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 09:23 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: They also won Super bowl in recent memory 2010 2011. But heh that doesn't mean anything. Dalton is = Rodgers, Brees, and Manning. We homers all know that, right fellow homers. Geesh.

I see you are having a lot of trouble staying on point.

Rodgers and Brees won Super bowls when they had a lot of talent around them, but you are 100% wrong when you claim they can win without talent around them.

Understand now?

[Bengalfan4life27c]

If Dalton were too leave after the season chances he could win a SB with the Pats if Brady were too retire? some times you don't know what you got until its gone

[*Nately120*]

(07-16-2019, 02:02 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: If Dalton were too leave after the season chances he could win a SB with the Pats if Brady were too retire? some times you don't know what you got until its gone

I'd expect Dalton to do better in NE than here, but if you're telling me the Patriots could replace the greatest QB of all time with Dalton and not miss a beat...well...I don't know.

At any rate, a thread about Dalton turns into a thread where we compare him to every and any QB of the past 40 years and now we are talking about putting him on multiple teams.  The real question is "Can Dalton win with the Bengals?" and so far the most compelling thing Fred has pointed out is that no QB could win here.

Anderson, Esiason, Palmer, and Dalton have all had stretches of losing season and post-season flops. There are QBs we've discussed who won a single SB in Rodgers, Brees, Dilfer and then didn't win when they didn't have enough talent, so maybe Dalton is like them.  Dalton had one elite year in the NFL and instead of flopping in the SB he broke his thumb and ended up on the sideline.

To win in the NFL you need a lot of talent.  A QB accounts for a lot, but not everything.  The biggest thing seems to be ownership though.  That explains why virtually every franchise except the expansion Browns, the Bengals, and the Lions have managed to do something of note in the past 25 or so years. 

That's my take.  Is this a make or break year for Dalton?  Hardly.  By week 5 or 6 I expect our o-line or one of the coaches to be cited as "proof" that 2019 was a giant waste of time and no one could succeed here.  Marvin, Mike Brown, Zampese, the o-line, Austin, Lazor, Bratkowski, injuries and a slew of other people/circumstances have been cited as a means to put off "make or break" years for our QBs for (apparently) the past 50 years.

So it goes.

[Catmandude123]

(07-16-2019, 02:02 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: If Dalton were too leave after the season chances he could win a SB with the Pats if Brady were too retire? some times you don't know what you got until its gone

LOL add Brady to the list that is Daltons equal. The difference between Dalton and those other QBs is they don't STB EVERY single time there is a crucial game.

[Catmandude123]

(07-16-2019, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I see you are having a lot of trouble staying on point.

Rodgers and Brees won Super bowls when they had a lot of talent around them, but you are 100% wrong when you claim they can win without talent around them.

Understand 

The point is you and others are living in a dream world when you try to compare Dalton to the top QBs. Brady won with a running back who couldn't even get on the field with the Bengals this year. He had the weakest team in the entire playoffs and still won the SB. Your are crazy to even say Daltons name in the same breath as Brady. UNDERSTAND NOW?

[*PhilHos*]

(07-16-2019, 02:34 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: LOL add Brady to the list that is Daltons equal. The difference between Dalton and those other QBs is they don't STB EVERY single time there is a crucial game.

Except that's not true. Playoffs, yes, Dalton has "STB", but in "crucial" games? No, not "EVERY single time".

I also find it funny how in one breath people say that Dalton can't win without the talent around him being really good or playing extremely well, but then turn around and say it's Dalton's fault that he played poorly in the playoffs. Either Dalton needs to be surrounded by top notch talent to succeed in which case his poor showing in the playoffs lies at the feet of his teammates for not making Dalton look better OR Dalton is an above average QB who has, so far, played like dog shit in the playoffs the fault of which lies mainly at his own feet.

So which is it, Dalton haters? 

[*PhilHos*]

(07-16-2019, 02:44 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Your are crazy to even say Daltons name in the same breath as Brady. 

But ... isn't that what you're doing right now? 

[Catmandude123]

(07-16-2019, 02:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Except that's not true. Playoffs, yes, Dalton has "STB", but in "crucial" games? No, not "EVERY single time".

I also find it funny how in one breath people say that Dalton can't win without the talent around him being really good or playing extremely well, but then turn around and say it's Dalton's fault that he played poorly in the playoffs. Either Dalton needs to be surrounded by top notch talent to succeed in which case his poor showing in the playoffs lies at the feet of his teammates for not making Dalton look better OR Dalton is an above average QB who has, so far, played like dog shit in the playoffs the fault of which lies mainly at his own feet.

So which is it, Dalton haters? 

He hasn't won in the past and will not win in the future with the talent on this team. I know it and deep down you known it too. The o-line is the same as or worse than last year. Oft injured TE position, wr3 is a huge question mark. If he needs players around him to win then the season is already over. The only way for the Bengals to be successful this year is for Dalton and Dalton alone to improve his game beyond what he has done in the past. While it can be done discounting the importance of a top QB is only a foolhardy game.

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2019, 02:44 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The point is you and others are living in a dream world when you try to compare Dalton to the top QBs. Brady won with a running back who couldn't even get on the field with the Bengals this year. He had the weakest team in the entire playoffs and still won the SB. Your are crazy to even say Daltons name in the same breath as Brady. UNDERSTAND NOW?

I understand that you never explained why Brees and Rodgers had those losing seasons if they dont need talent around them to win.

Plus the Pats won 11 games with matt cassel at QB the year Brady was out.

[*Nately120*]

(07-16-2019, 03:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I understand that you never explained why Brees and Rodgers had those losing seasons if they dont need talent around them to win.

Plus the Pats won 11 games with matt cassel at QB the year Brady was out.

I don't have an issue with the comparison game, so much as how haphazardly we use it.  I'm pretty sure going into 2018 where we had an defense that was almost record-breakingly bad someone pointed out that Trent Dilfer won a SB with an elite defense.  Stuff like that...but it's all off-season noise and we have to discuss something.

[Catmandude123]

(07-16-2019, 03:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Plus the Pats won 11 games with matt cassel at QB the year Brady was out.

Yes he had a Daltonesque year that year. He didn't make the playoffs.

[XenoMorph]

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: He hasn't won in the past and will not win in the future with the talent on this team. I know it and deep down you known it too. The o-line is the same as or worse than last year. Oft injured TE position, wr3 is a huge question mark. If he needs players around him to win then the season is already over. The only way for the Bengals to be successful this year is for Dalton and Dalton alone to improve his game beyond what he has done in the past. While it can be done discounting the importance of a top QB is only a foolhardy game.

only so much one dude can do...   

Dalton can throw the passes but someone has to catch them... and plays have to have time to develop.

Wins and losses aren't on 1 person. All active players play a part. everyone has to do their job well for the whole to work.


This is why super disciplined teams find ways to win.. Something we haven't been in a while.



There are only 3 top 3 QBs any year....  very rarely do we see 2 squaring off in the SB...   QBs cant do it alone.  Or Peyton Manning would have many more than 2 rings.

[Catmandude123]

(07-16-2019, 03:19 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: only so much one dude can do...   

Dalton can throw the passes but someone has to catch them... and plays have to have time to develop.

Wins and losses aren't on 1 person. All active players play a part. everyone has to do their job well for the whole to work.


This is why super disciplined teams find ways to win.. Something we haven't been in a while.



There are only 3 top 3 QBs any year....  very rarely do we see 2 squaring off in the SB...   QBs cant do it alone.  Or Peyton Manning would have many more than 2 rings.

If they don't make the playoffs this year then it is time to replace the players around Dalton or draft a new QB. To repeat this year in and year out is insane.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: He hasn't won in the past 

False. Dude has a winning record as a starting QB in the NFL. That's not easy to do over the course of 5+ seasons. Especially for a franchise run by a guy trying to run it like it's still the 70s.

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote:  will not win in the future with the talent on this team.

You must be filthy rich what with winning the lottery all the time.

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The o-line is the same as or worse than last year. 

You don't seem to realize that coaching can play a huge role. That's not to say that the oline will be better this year, but it's possible if it's the same players that our current coaching staff can overcome their deficiencies unlike the last coaching staff. Yes, it's unknown if they will, but it's still possible.

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Oft injured TE position, wr3 is a huge question mark. If he needs players around him to win then the season is already over. 

He doesn't need all stars around him to win. That's been evident by his having a winning record. We have enough talent to win a playoff game or 2. It's going to come down to coaching and lack of injuries. 

(07-16-2019, 03:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The only way for the Bengals to be successful this year is for Dalton and Dalton alone to improve his game beyond what he has done in the past. While it can be done discounting the importance of a top QB is only a foolhardy game.

Spoken like someone who CLEARLY doesn't understand the game of football. The Bengals can be successful in numerous ways: Dalton playing even better, sure, but ZT being a better HC than Merv, the defense playing at an elite level, other players on offense lifting Dalton to higher levels, etc.

If you think the only way for the Bengals to be successful is for Dalton to be an elite QB, well, I'm going to start calling you Mike Brown because that's the exact same thought process he has and I would be embarrassed if MB and I looked at football the same way.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-16-2019, 03:25 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: If they don't make the playoffs this year then it is time to replace the players around Dalton or draft a new QB. To repeat this year in and year out is insane.

Or, and this might be a radical idea to you, Mike Brown, but how about replacing the INEFFECTIVE players and coaches and upgrading players and coaches where you can?

[*Nately120*]

(07-16-2019, 03:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Or, and this might be a radical idea to you, Mike Brown, but how about replacing the INEFFECTIVE players and coaches and upgrading players and coaches where you can?

Which players are ineffective, though?  As people have pointed out, football is such a team game and relies so heavily upon coaching and scheme that it is very difficult to single out players than need to be replaced.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-16-2019, 03:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Which players are ineffective, though?  As people have pointed out, football is such a team game and relies so heavily upon coaching and scheme that it is very difficult to single out players than need to be replaced.

How many times have we all lamented that certain players are retained long after they should be (say like Oughebhi sp?)? It's those players I'm thinking of.

But my point was pointing out the absurdity of replacing only Dalton or only those around Dalton. Instead of upgrading whereever is needed (including coaching staff)