Dalton's make or break year

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

I'm not blaming anyone until I see how this team responds under Zac Taylor. I always read "so and so's not going to get any better after X amount of years". Those are people that think coaching doesn't matter. It absolutely does. For Exhibit A, I give you: Carson Palmer under Bruce Arians.

[XsandOs]

(07-19-2019, 02:09 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I'm not blaming anyone until I see how this team responds under Zac Taylor. I always read "so and so's not going to get any better after X amount of years". Those are people that think coaching doesn't matter. It absolutely does. For Exhibit A, I give you: Carson Palmer under Bruce Arians.

Could not agree more!

Exhibit B - Jared Goff

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-19-2019, 02:15 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Could not agree more!

Exhibit B - Jared Goff

Another good example.  Scheme and coaching to players' strengths vs "do your job" are absolutely huge parts of a team's success or failure.

We now have a HC who is VERY hands on with our offense.....he's even going to call the plays.  If he is good, the offense will improve.  Defense still concerns me, but I think a minimalist approach, and just adapting to the players vs having them adapt their style to the scheme will at least make that unit average.  Average is a whole lot better than what we saw last season.

[fredtoast]

(07-19-2019, 02:09 PM)Wyche Wrote:   For Exhibit A, I give you:  Carson Palmer under Bruce Arians.

Palmer only had 3 seasons where he finished in the top 10 in passing yards, passing tds, and passer rating

Palmer Bengals '05....4th yds...1st tds...2nd rating
Palmer Bengals '06....5th yds...2nd tds...6th rating

Palmer Cards  '15.....4th yds...2nd tds...3rd rating

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-19-2019, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer only had 3 seasons where he finished in the top 10 in passing yards, passing tds, and passer rating

Palmer Bengals '05....4th yds...1st tds...2nd rating
Palmer Bengals '06....5th yds...2nd tds...6th rating

Palmer Cards  '15.....4th yds...2nd tds...3rd rating

Palmer got hurt in AZ too.....twice if I remember correctly?  Anyway, the point was Palmer had a resurgence late in his career under an offensive minded coach after flaming out in OAK, and here.  People on these Dalton threads say there's no way he'll bounce back in year 8, even though there is a new set of eyes calling the shots for the team and the offense.

Those 1st 2 years here also had some of the best offensive line play in Cincy since the 80s.

[Tiger Teeth]

Good lord. Let's just line up all the Dalton supporters over here, and the Dalton haters over there and let the rumble begin. The fact is, going into this season AD is going to be the leader of this team. And we have a new coach to replace Merv. Can't we wait and at least give them a chance before we just say they all suck?

[XsandOs]

(07-19-2019, 03:02 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Good lord.  Let's just line up all the Dalton supporters over here, and the Dalton haters over there and let the rumble begin.  The fact is, going into this season AD is going to be the leader of this team.  And we have a new coach to replace Merv.  Can't we wait and at least give them a chance before we just say they all suck?

I am not necessarily a Dalton supporter nor a hater.

Realizing how much blame the QB receives for losses, but yet how dependent a QB is on the other 10 players to do his job, and the other 21 players to get a win - I feel that simple stats do not necessarily reflect the overall construct.

Lastly, coaching - specifically play-calling, has everything to do with QB success. With the headsets now, motion is used early to detect defense, and the coach calls in the play. So coaching, as Wyche's Warrior has stated, is paramount to QB success.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-19-2019, 03:25 PM)XsandOs Wrote: I am not necessarily a Dalton supporter nor a hater.

Realizing how much blame the QB receives for losses, but yet how dependent a QB is on the other 10 players to do his job, and the other 21 players to get a win - I feel that simple stats do not necessarily reflect the overall construct.

Lastly, coaching - specifically play-calling, has everything to do with QB success. With the headsets now, motion is used early to detect defense, and the coach calls in the play. So coaching, as Wyche's Warrior has stated, is paramount to QB success.

Exactly my position as well.  The thing is, if you bring rational discussion to the subject that doesn't align with the negative diatribes, you're a homer or lover.  

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-19-2019, 02:09 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm not blaming anyone until I see how this team responds under Zac Taylor.  I always read "so and so's not going to get any better after X amount of years".  Those are people that think coaching doesn't matter.  It absolutely does.  For Exhibit A, I give you:  Carson Palmer under Bruce Arians.

Absolutely it matters !!

This isn't just a bash ML post but just look at his record in the 2nd half of games especially against the better teams/P.T./playoffs. We didn't just get beat like a drum after halftime because all of those teams got lucky.

[Tiger Teeth]

(07-19-2019, 04:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly my position as well.  The thing is, if you bring rational discussion to the subject that doesn't align with the negative diatribes, you're a homer or lover.  

+Rep for the use of negative diatribes.

[BrownAssClown]

I wish the OP would not have used the words "Dalton" and "Break" to start this topic. The way the OL is shaping up with injuries and retirements let's hope Dalton does not get broken.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Dalton is amazing I’m glad we got him. He’s an excellent pregame motivator, he throws a beautiful deep ball , he’s clutch in prime time games n the playoffs. I’m glad the Bengals didn’t reach for a quarterback like Watson , Haskins , Mahomes , because Dalton is irreplaceable!!

[Shake n Blake]

(07-19-2019, 08:58 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Even if he did suck.....Trent Dilfer, dude.

But he's better than Dilfer ever was. Even when you adjust for era and compare to peers.

Ah dammit, I got sucked into this debate again. 

(07-19-2019, 01:53 PM)Earendil Wrote: Sometimes I feel like we are going to be having this argument long after Dalton retires.

It's like Hatfield's vs McCoy's, I swear. Pick your side and pass the ammunition.

(07-19-2019, 04:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly my position as well.  The thing is, if you bring rational discussion to the subject that doesn't align with the negative diatribes, you're a homer or lover.  

I got labeled a Dalton homer years ago, even though I was one of a select few that said we should sign Peyton back in 2012. *Shrugs*

[XsandOs]

(07-19-2019, 09:14 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dalton is amazing I’m glad we got him. He’s an excellent pregame motivator, he throws a beautiful deep ball , he’s clutch in prime time games n the playoffs. I’m glad the Bengals didn’t reach for a quarterback like Watson , Haskins , Mahomes , because Dalton is irreplaceable!!

To be fair, following were our options:

We had the chance to draft Gabbert, Locker or Ponder - instead of AJ Green, with the sixth pick.

Then we had our pick of Dalton, Kaepernick or Mallet, Stanzi, or Yates with our second round pick.

We didn't have a shot at Newton. So that was our reality.

I feel that Gruden would have succeeded with Ponder. He went too high.

[*Nately120*]

(07-19-2019, 09:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But he's better than Dilfer ever was. Even when you adjust for era and compare to peers.

Ah dammit, I got sucked into this debate again. 

Dalton is better than Dilfer, much like 25+ starting QBs in any given year.  With that said, Dilfer's crappy post-season numbers are still better than Dalton's.

[Tiger Teeth]

(07-19-2019, 09:14 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dalton is amazing I’m glad we got him. He’s an excellent pregame motivator, he throws a beautiful deep ball , he’s clutch in prime time games n the playoffs. I’m glad the Bengals didn’t reach for a quarterback like Watson , Haskins , Mahomes , because Dalton is irreplaceable!!

I detect sarcasm in your comments.  

[*rfaulk34*]

I didn't read the last couple pages because i have a question. 

All of the great QBs that have been mentioned, at some point or another, has overcome adversity around them in a crucial game to pull it out. 

Can anyone list the Sunday night, Monday night or playoff game(s) where Dalton has overcome adversity around him to lead the team to a win? Is there even one in a 8 year career? I'm asking because none pop out in my head right now. The final game of '12 where they beat the Steelers on the road--where he threw the pass to AJ before the winning FG--comes to mind. The Monday night(?) game against Denver maybe? He didn't even have 200 yds passing but he had a 93 rating. 

I'm wondering because, as i said, the great one's will do that a time or two and i'm interested if Dalton has ever done it.

[*jason*]

(07-20-2019, 04:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I didn't read the last couple pages because i have a question. 

All of the great QBs that have been mentioned, at some point or another, has overcome adversity around them in a crucial game to pull it out. 

Can anyone list the Sunday night, Monday night or playoff game(s) where Dalton has overcome adversity around him to lead the team to a win? Is there even one in a 8 year career? I'm asking because none pop out in my head right now. The final game of '12 where they beat the Steelers on the road--where he threw the pass to AJ before the winning FG--comes to mind. The Monday night(?) game against Denver maybe? He didn't even have 200 yds passing but he had a 93 rating. 

I'm wondering because, as i said, the great one's will do that a time or two and i'm interested if Dalton has ever done it.

Atlanta last year?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-20-2019, 04:44 PM)jason Wrote: Atlanta last year?

Not prime time...

[*jason*]

(07-20-2019, 09:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not prime time...

Oh... I missed the night and playoff caveat in his post. Sometimes I forget that 1 pm Eastern games don't count.