Dalton's make or break year

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2019, 01:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton is an unusual QB.  When he is good he is among the better QBs in the league, but when he is bad he is among the worst.

Some people claim that Dalton is a steady, but unspectacular QB.  I say he is kind of the opposite.  He can be really good or he can be really bad.

There are only 6 active QBs who have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton since 2011, but there is only 1 QB with more games with a passer rating of 70 or lower.

People greatly underestimate the streakiness o' Dalton.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-22-2019, 03:26 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: So we’ve compared Dalton to Brees , Brady n Manning in this thread.   Plus now we can’t call manhole covers “manhole “ in California.   I think the world is officially crazy.

This post right here is what I hate most about this message board. Nowhere did I suggest Dalton = Brees. I made a solid point, but instead of addressing it, you pretend I was equating Dalton to Brees or Manning. No. I was simply showing the importance of coaching and probably the organization itself.

(07-22-2019, 10:12 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: So you believe Brees would have lost four straight PO games?

I do. Palmer, Dalton, Kitna and McCarron all stunk to high Heaven in the playoffs under Marv. Why would Brees be any different? 

I can't put enough emphasis on Marvin replacing Sean Payton as Brees' coach. People on here seem to massively underestimate the impact Head Coach and schemes have. 

(07-22-2019, 11:26 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yep, and if you recall, I was on that Peyton bandwagon with you.  Hell, I was even for bringing in Bridgewater when he was drafted.

Yes you were. I wasn't on the Bridgewater bandwagon though. I let that one cruise right on by.

(07-22-2019, 09:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Fair or not, I can easily see the tide turning against Dalton if we notch a 4th losing season in a row.  The narrative is going to be that his winning seasons are behind him and it's time to reboot at the position.

Not saying it's right just saying 4 losing seasons in a row would look super not awesome.

If we lose this season, I think it's time to shake the roster up. That can include Dalton. 

It will be a shame that we wasted 4 years not fixing this o-line, but this core is getting on in years.

[Luvnit2]

If the team tanks in 2019 prior to the trade deadline, I think the roster shake up should commence immediately. If we can trade AD, Green, Geno, Dunlap and others for top draft picks, then do it. Why wait until season's end if we can get more for the trade value to teams trying to win it all this year if we tank?

I hate the idea of a rebuild being an old guy, but 4 years in a row time for new faces and a rebuild IMHO. I would miss all the guys I mentioned, I respect them all. But, they deserve a shot at winning also so it may be great news for them. New core would be:

Mixon
Williams
Price
Boyd
Bates
W. Jackson
Hubbard
Lawson
Sample

And the rookies who may surprise us in 2019 like Pratt, Wren and others

[Catmandude123]

(07-23-2019, 01:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton is an unusual QB.  When he is good he is among the better QBs in the league, but when he is bad he is among the worst.

Some people claim that Dalton is a steady, but unspectacular QB.  I say he is kind of the opposite.  He can be really good or he can be really bad.

There are only 6 active QBs who have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton since 2011, but there is only 1 QB with more games with a passer rating of 70 or lower.

Help!! Send someone to Freds house. Someone has commandeered his computer and is typing derogatory comments about Andy Dalton.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-09-2019, 01:38 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: Interesting article on players that are on the hot seat this year:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27148634/10-nfl-players-entering-make-break-years-how-leave-2020

If the O-line plays decent and the Offense stays relatively healthy it should be Dalton's best season to date.

More like breakout season.

[*Nately120*]

(07-23-2019, 04:20 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If the team tanks in 2019 prior to the trade deadline, I think the roster shake up should commence immediately. If we can trade AD, Green, Geno, Dunlap and others for top draft picks, then do it. Why wait until season's end if we can get more for the trade value to teams trying to win it all this year if we tank?

If we are well on our way to a disappointing season in 2019 I fully expect us to stand pat and blame Jim Turner and/or Lou Anarumo for making the 2019 season a waste of time in the way Zampese and Austin have already done.  Let's face it, we are optimistic about the new coaches, but we have also spent a lot of the off-season explaining why the defense, Dalton, Ross, and so on were flat-out ruined by numerous coaches.

We've written off the past 3 losing seasons as being ultimately pointless due to our coaches, so I'm just wondering if our current coaching staff is good enough top to bottom to prevent us from going down that whole "[INSERT HOF PLAYER HERE] couldn't succeed in this system, so what do you expect!?" rabbit hole.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-20-2019, 04:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I didn't read the last couple pages because i have a question. 

All of the great QBs that have been mentioned, at some point or another, has overcome adversity around them in a crucial game to pull it out. 

Can anyone list the Sunday night, Monday night or playoff game(s) where Dalton has overcome adversity around him to lead the team to a win? Is there even one in a 8 year career? I'm asking because none pop out in my head right now. The final game of '12 where they beat the Steelers on the road--where he threw the pass to AJ before the winning FG--comes to mind. The Monday night(?) game against Denver maybe? He didn't even have 200 yds passing but he had a 93 rating. 

I'm wondering because, as i said, the great one's will do that a time or two and i'm interested if Dalton has ever done it.

Apparently, in everyone's haste to rush to excuses, the question that was asked still hasn't been answered. 

The "great" QBs have all done this at some point. I guess i could bother re-stating that Dalton is obviously a good QB, and at times can play great but that would probably be a waste of time...again...since no one bothers to actually read a post and answer the question(s) asked. 

I'm just going to go ahead and state that he hasn't done it in 8 seasons and just look forward to another season where he plays well in meaningful games on Sunday afternoon, with the ability to up his game in prime time, but still not record a game where fans or announcers point out how it was his play that led the team to victory when things were falling apart around him. 

Maybe i'm just silly to think there should be at least one game where this happens, in an eight year career as a starting QB on a team that made the playoffs in 5 straight years. 

I was obviously looking for an instance where it could be pointed out that he has the ability to carry a team when it needs him most (see: not a 1:00 game on Sunday--unless it's to make the playoffs), but just as obviously, there's none to be found. 

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2019, 03:46 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Apparently, in everyone's haste to rush to excuses, the question that was asked still hasn't been answered. 

The "great" QBs have all done this at some point. I guess i could bother re-stating that Dalton is obviously a good QB, and at times can play great but that would probably be a waste of time...again...since no one bothers to actually read a post and answer the question(s) asked. 

I'm just going to go ahead and state that he hasn't done it in 8 seasons and just look forward to another season where he plays well in meaningful games on Sunday afternoon, with the ability to up his game in prime time, but still not record a game where fans or announcers point out how it was his play that led the team to victory when things were falling apart around him. 

Maybe i'm just silly to think there should be at least one game where this happens, in an eight year career as a starting QB on a team that made the playoffs in 5 straight years. 

I was obviously looking for an instance where it could be pointed out that he has the ability to carry a team when it needs him most (see: not a 1:00 game on Sunday--unless it's to make the playoffs), but just as obviously, there's none to be found. 

I don't think you are correct.  I don't think every "great" QB has led his team to victory in a prime time game when "everything was falling apart around him".

I think you are just making that up.

And, again, I think it is funny that you consider a Thursday night game against a scrub team to be "bigger" than a Sunday afternoon game against a division leader.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-24-2019, 03:46 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Apparently, in everyone's haste to rush to excuses, the question that was asked still hasn't been answered. 

The "great" QBs have all done this at some point. I guess i could bother re-stating that Dalton is obviously a good QB, and at times can play great but that would probably be a waste of time...again...since no one bothers to actually read a post and answer the question(s) asked. 

I'm just going to go ahead and state that he hasn't done it in 8 seasons and just look forward to another season where he plays well in meaningful games on Sunday afternoon, with the ability to up his game in prime time, but still not record a game where fans or announcers point out how it was his play that led the team to victory when things were falling apart around him. 

Maybe i'm just silly to think there should be at least one game where this happens, in an eight year career as a starting QB on a team that made the playoffs in 5 straight years. 

I was obviously looking for an instance where it could be pointed out that he has the ability to carry a team when it needs him most (see: not a 1:00 game on Sunday--unless it's to make the playoffs), but just as obviously, there's none to be found. 

1. No one said Dalton was a "great" 

2. Dalton played for probably the worst prime-time and playoff coach in the history of sports. Kinda hurts his chances of having "willed" us to win, when we're not doing much winning in those scenarios. Palmer sucked in prime-time/playoffs too. Doesn't that indicate something?

3. Even still, there ARE some examples:

- 280 yards + 1 TD + 81.7 rating vs Steelers
- 146 yards + 2 TDs + 93.7 rating vs Broncos (stats weren't great, but he had several key throws/runs in that game, sans AJ Green)
- 234 yards + 3 TDs + 139.8 rating vs Browns (yeah people won't count it "cuz Browns", yet they count 2.0 vs Browns)
- 296 yards + 1 TD + 111.8 rating vs playoff Dolphins team 
- 265 yards + 4 TDs + 107.7 rating vs Ravens

Those are all since 2014, and this is leaving out some prime-time games where he played great, but the team still lost. Such as:

- 315 yards + 2 TDs + 99.8 rating vs Cardinals (we lost because our defense allowed 34 points)
- 234 yards + 2 TDs + 96.2 rating vs Steelers (our defense gave up 184 yards and 13 points on the Steelers last 3 drives)
- 230 yards + 2 TDs + 86.4 rating vs Steelers (literally everything other than our pass game was terrible)

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-24-2019, 02:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you are correct.  I don't think every "great" QB has led his team to victory in a prime time game when "everything was falling apart around him".

I think you are just making that up.

And, again, I think it is funny that you consider a Thursday night game against a scrub team to be "bigger" than a Sunday afternoon game against a division leader.

Name a great QB and i'll see if i can disprove you. I'm not looking for the strict parameters of that statement. I'm just looking for a game that he clearly led the team to a win with his talent.

As to the last part...that's your strawman. I don't think Thursday Night games are more important than Sunday afternoon.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-24-2019, 03:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. No one said Dalton was a "great" 

2. Dalton played for probably the worst prime-time and playoff coach in the history of sports. Kinda hurts his chances of having "willed" us to win, when we're not doing much winning in those scenarios. Palmer sucked in prime-time/playoffs too. Doesn't that indicate something?

3. Even still, there ARE some examples:

- 280 yards + 1 TD + 81.7 rating vs Steelers
- 146 yards + 2 TDs + 93.7 rating vs Broncos (stats weren't great, but he had several key throws/runs in that game, sans AJ Green)
- 234 yards + 3 TDs + 139.8 rating vs Browns (yeah people won't count it "cuz Browns", yet they count 2.0 vs Browns)
- 296 yards + 1 TD + 111.8 rating vs playoff Dolphins team 
- 265 yards + 4 TDs + 107.7 rating vs Ravens

Those are all since 2014, and this is leaving out some prime-time games where he played great, but the team still lost. Such as:

- 315 yards + 2 TDs + 99.8 rating vs Cardinals (we lost because our defense allowed 34 points)
- 234 yards + 2 TDs + 96.2 rating vs Steelers (our defense gave up 184 yards and 13 points on the Steelers last 3 drives)
- 230 yards + 2 TDs + 86.4 rating vs Steelers(literally everything other than our pass game was terrible)

How sad is it these games are being used as examples...

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2019, 03:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: As to the last part...that's your strawman. I don't think Thursday Night games are more important than Sunday afternoon.

Then why limit your question to just prime time games?

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2019, 03:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How sad is it these games are being used as examples...

No sadder than a supposed "fan" ignoring the other examples.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-24-2019, 03:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. No one said Dalton was a "great" 

2. Dalton played for probably the worst prime-time and playoff coach in the history of sports. Kinda hurts his chances of having "willed" us to win, when we're not doing much winning in those scenarios. Palmer sucked in prime-time/playoffs too. Doesn't that indicate something?

3. Even still, there ARE some examples:

- 280 yards + 1 TD + 81.7 rating vs Steelers
- 146 yards + 2 TDs + 93.7 rating vs Broncos (stats weren't great, but he had several key throws/runs in that game, sans AJ Green)
- 234 yards + 3 TDs + 139.8 rating vs Browns (yeah people won't count it "cuz Browns", yet they count 2.0 vs Browns)
- 296 yards + 1 TD + 111.8 rating vs playoff Dolphins team 
- 265 yards + 4 TDs + 107.7 rating vs Ravens

Those are all since 2014, and this is leaving out some prime-time games where he played great, but the team still lost. Such as:

- 315 yards + 2 TDs + 99.8 rating vs Cardinals (we lost because our defense allowed 34 points)
- 234 yards + 2 TDs + 96.2 rating vs Steelers (our defense gave up 184 yards and 13 points on the Steelers last 3 drives)
- 230 yards + 2 TDs + 86.4 rating vs Steelers (literally everything other than our pass game was terrible)

I don't know why you're just ignoring my question and throwing numbers at me. 

When is the last time a "big" game (again, not your standard 1:00 Sunday game--and again again--that doesn't mean they're not "important") ended and you could say, "man, if it wasn't for Dalton's performance, that game would have been an "L"?

All asked because...when prime time comes around and when playoff games come around, you want a QB that can go out and do his part to get the "W". 

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-24-2019, 03:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why limit your question to just prime time games?

Because prime time games are different than your regular Sunday afternoon game. The lights are brighter and the pressure is more intense. 

THAT is the thing that moves a QB from good to great; everyone watching and him balling out. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-24-2019, 03:46 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Apparently, in everyone's haste to rush to excuses, the question that was asked still hasn't been answered. 

The "great" QBs have all done this at some point. I guess i could bother re-stating that Dalton is obviously a good QB, and at times can play great but that would probably be a waste of time...again...since no one bothers to actually read a post and answer the question(s) asked. 

I'm just going to go ahead and state that he hasn't done it in 8 seasons and just look forward to another season where he plays well in meaningful games on Sunday afternoon, with the ability to up his game in prime time, but still not record a game where fans or announcers point out how it was his play that led the team to victory when things were falling apart around him. 

Maybe i'm just silly to think there should be at least one game where this happens, in an eight year career as a starting QB on a team that made the playoffs in 5 straight years. 

I was obviously looking for an instance where it could be pointed out that he has the ability to carry a team when it needs him most (see: not a 1:00 game on Sunday--unless it's to make the playoffs), but just as obviously, there's none to be found. 

That's an easy one......the opening day Jets game when he was sacked 7 times, and pressured all day long, but threw for 366 yds, a TD, 77% completion percentage, and a 114 rating.

I'd say he did it the whole season in 2014 when he threw 25 TDS, ran for 5, and caught one when Jones and Eifert went down for the season, AJ missed a significant chunk of the season, and we still managed 10 wins and limped into the playoffs with Rex Burkhead as WR2 and Mo Sanu as WR1.

You know what was different back then?  We could block at least half assed.  It's really that simple.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-24-2019, 03:29 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's an easy one......the opening day Jets game when he was sacked 7 times, and pressured all day long, but threw for 366 yds, a TD, 77% completion percentage, and a 114 rating.

I'd say he did it the whole season in 2014 when he threw 25 TDS, ran for 5, and caught one when Jones and Eifert went down for the season, AJ missed a significant chunk of the season, and we still managed 10 wins and limped into the playoffs with Rex Burkhead as WR2 and Mo Sanu as WR1.

You know what was different back then?  We could block at least half assed.  It's really that simple.

That was a regular Sunday afternoon game...

How many NFL fans that aren't Bengals fans do you think even know about that game?

[Shake n Blake]

(07-24-2019, 03:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How sad is it these games are being used as examples...

Nothing sad about it. You do realize that 230 yards + 2 TDs + 86.4 rating is a solid performance in a Steelers division game...right? We also don't win that Broncos game without several key plays from Dalton.

Also, good job ignoring the other - better - examples.

(07-24-2019, 03:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't know why you're just ignoring my question and throwing numbers at me. 

When is the last time a "big" game (again, not your standard 1:00 Sunday game--and again again--that doesn't mean they're not "important") ended and you could say, "man, if it wasn't for Dalton's performance, that game would have been an "L"?

All asked because...when prime time comes around and when playoff games come around, you want a QB that can go out and do his part to get the "W". 

Bro those were prime-time games that I listed. None of those would've been W's without Dalton's performance.

Not sure why you're ignoring factual evidence. You asked for examples of Dalton willing us to victory in prime-time and I provided (at least) 3 good examples.

4 TD's against the Ravens not good enough for ya?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-24-2019, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No sadder than a supposed "fan" ignoring the other examples.

Stop questioning my fandom. It’s beyond old at this point. Just because I’ve been frustrated with our QB for a few years does not make me less of a “fan” than you and the rest of the excuse makers.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2019, 03:28 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Because prime time games are different than your regular Sunday afternoon game. The lights are brighter and the pressure is more intense. 

THAT is the thing that moves a QB from good to great; everyone watching and him balling out. 

In 2015 Dalton completed 78% of his passes for 3 tds and a 137.5 passer rating in 31-10 Thursday night victory against the Browns.

In 2016 against a playoff bound Dolphins team he completed 71% of his passes for 285 yards and a 110 passer rating in a 22-7 primetime win

In 2018 against a Division Champion Ravens team he threw for 265 yards, 4 tds, and a 108 passer rating in a 34-23 primetime win