At what point are you OK with a total rebuild

[XenoMorph]

(07-18-2019, 03:56 PM)Wyche Wrote: True.....but I think they need to get creative, and make that happen.  That kid looks like the real deal........

im not willing to tank seasons for a crap shoot in the draft.

[Murdock2420]

(07-19-2019, 03:13 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: im not willing to tank seasons for a crap shoot in the draft.

Normally I'd agree but this kid doesn't look like a crap shoot, this is the Luck, Manning type of QB that turns a franchise around on his own.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-19-2019, 03:18 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Normally I'd agree but this kid doesn't look like a crap shoot, this is the Luck, Manning type of QB that turns a franchise around on his own.

Right.....and as you noted.....he already looks good in orange.


(....and I'm a Noles fan FWIW  )

[Whatever]

(07-19-2019, 03:18 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Normally I'd agree but this kid doesn't look like a crap shoot, this is the Luck, Manning type of QB that turns a franchise around on his own.

You're probably looking at 0-16 to get him, though.  Teams will tank hard for Lawrence.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-18-2019, 11:15 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: New coach gives us hope for the coming year but if we get poor results are we better off playing the same cards in 2020 or should they cut their losses and try to build a whole new team? Even if they win eight games they are stuck drafting from a point that the QBs are gone. When the trade deadline comes and we are floundering I believe trading our aging players for draft picks will make the rebuild easier. The short time results would definitely be disheartening but I believe it would start us off in the new decade in a much better position. I know my views are not what is popular but it may be necessary to cut bait and rebuild.

I think they have seen that they can beat any team with Dalton when he is protected.  If would not "cut bait"  at this point.  I would double down on what I have, maybe go out and sign the LT that wants out of Washington, and see what this coaching staff can do with this roster.  My belief is that the team will vastly surprise the expectations placed on them by virtue of better coaching. The team could make the postseason and struggle if their paper-thin depth is tested with injuries down the stretch, but I would still go for it.

If you aren't trying to win, what are you doing in the game?

In 2015, they gave the eventual Super Bowl Champions everything they could handle in their stadium with a backup QB.  I think every team has depth issues and less than half of the league are honest contenders.  This team can contend.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(07-18-2019, 01:46 PM)jj22 Wrote: Do we trust Tobin with a rebuild?

The guy who's drafted 1 probowler since 2013 (or whenever we draft Eifert).....

No. If anybody should be on the hotseat this year it should be Tobin. 

Hopefully he is gaining knowledge with the experience he has been through. And some of these guys start producing. He has a pretty shoddy draft history here lately. I won't doubt it was old complacent marv holding guys back. But if Malik and Pratt cant play LB in the NFL and the new additions on the OL over the last couple years continue to struggle... Those are two pretty important positions he just fails at filling.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-18-2019, 11:15 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: New coach gives us hope for the coming year but if we get poor results are we better off playing the same cards in 2020 or should they cut their losses and try to build a whole new team? Even if they win eight games they are stuck drafting from a point that the QBs are gone. When the trade deadline comes and we are floundering I believe trading our aging players for draft picks will make the rebuild easier. The short time results would definitely be disheartening but I believe it would start us off in the new decade in a much better position. I know my views are not what is popular but it may be necessary to cut bait and rebuild.

I am not okay until Geno and AJ start falling off personally, I haven't seen yet enough and I like our up and coming talent immensely in Mixon, Lawson, Hubbard, Price, Jonah, Bates, Pratt, Boyd, Ross, Traveon, Sample, Wrenn etc. Not time for a rebuild IMHO. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-19-2019, 04:55 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think they have seen that they can beat any team with Dalton when he is protected.  If would not "cut bait"  at this point.  I would double down on what I have, maybe go out and sign the LT that wants out of Washington, and see what this coaching staff can do with this roster.  My belief is that the team will vastly surprise the expectations placed on them by virtue of better coaching. The team could make the postseason and struggle if their paper-thin depth is tested with injuries down the stretch, but I would still go for it.

If you aren't trying to win, what are you doing in the game?

In 2015, they gave the eventual Super Bowl Champions everything they could handle in their stadium with a backup QB.  I think every team has depth issues and less than half of the league are honest contenders.  This team can contend.  

Well said Racer my brother, been a bit, makes me feel good to see your posts again.

I would like to get Trent but man, it seems like Westerman can only play LG well, so what do we do with Glenn?

Never played on the right side of the Line, Glenn.

[Murdock2420]

(07-19-2019, 04:23 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right.....and as you noted.....he already looks good in orange.


(....and I'm a Noles fan FWIW  )

Indeed, and is a fan of tigers.... 

(07-19-2019, 04:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: You're probably looking at 0-16 to get him, though.  Teams will tank hard for Lawrence.

Worth it. Tank hard, trade away for more picks if you need them, do whatever it takes to get that 1 spot and get this kid in town.

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2019, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Right now we have a core of solid players, but they are all near the point where they will start declining.  

The more I have thought about this the more I realize that our "core" has gotten a lot smaller recently we lost Boling and Burfict this year and since 2015 we have lost Whit, Zeitler, Eifert, Reggie Nelson, Marvin Jones, Mohammed Sanu, Peko, and Adam Jones.

We have drafted some very good players the last couple of years (Mixon, Lawson, Bates, Hubbard) but we lost a shit load of talent from that team.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-19-2019, 05:56 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Indeed, and is a fan of tigers.... 



Worth it. Tank hard, trade away for more picks if you need them, do whatever it takes to get that 1 spot and get this kid in town.

You think Lawrence is that sure of a thing Murdock?

[HarleyDog]

(07-19-2019, 05:56 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Worth it. Tank hard, trade away for more picks if you need them, do whatever it takes to get that 1 spot and get this kid in town.

Would never accept tanking from this team. Never ever ever never ever. One player is not worth giving up your dignity and losing a locker room because they just weren't enough. We are far from a rebuild anyway. IMO we are just a player or two short of having something special and that's where the coaches come in. Coach em up and get the best out of every one of those guys. Guys who want to give all they got. Take it!

[Shake n Blake]

Obviously they're going to run it back at least one more time with this core. We'll see how that goes. We have a lot of skill position talent and a decent QB, but the line is in shambles and the defense hasn't replaced departed talent very well. It kinda reminds me of (gasp) the 90's.

Back when we had guys like Pickens, Scott, Dillon and Blake, but not much else. We're probably in a bit better shape than that, but you probably get the gist.

I'm fine with a rebuild if they don't win this year. Honestly, I expected my interest level to pick back up when we brought in Taylor, but the bland offseason outside of that kinda took away some of that luster for me. Then we lost Jonah, which was a pretty huge loss. Now we get to see if another staff can pull off a miracle with this shoddy o-line. I didn't expect this problem to last 4+ years.

[NKURyan]

The problem with the plan of tanking for Trevor Lawrence is that if he doesn't want to come here it'd all be for nothing.

Is he that type of guy? I have no clue. But I'm willing to bet that two years out nobody has any idea what this kid's intentions are, and selling a franchise coming off a (theoretical) 0-16 season and (theoretically) 6 losing seasons in a row, with no real history of winning, a pretty meager and negative fanbase... that's no sure thing at all. It's fun to sit here and pretend that we could get Lawrence to fall right in our laps and that he'd come marching in to save the franchise... but who's to say he'd be the slightest bit interested in that?

Can't count on it, so don't do it.

[BengalFanInNJ]

I believe in tanking when you are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Of course, the draft is nothing but a crapshoot anyway so you may as well win as many games as you can.

[bonesaw]

2016

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-19-2019, 05:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Well said Racer my brother, been a bit, makes me feel good to see your posts again.

I would like to get Trent but man, it seems like Westerman can only play LG well, so what do we do with Glenn?

Never played on the right side of the Line, Glenn.

I would put Glenn at LG and give the biggest, strongest three the middle spots.  I think ZT had that in mind all along.  Westerman, Redmond, and Jordan can provide quality depth and competition for the RG spot.  Maybe the next year, either Trent goes to RT (makes sense) or we try Jonah over there.  

Either way, I want a great line...always been the formula for success with AD.  

[Murdock2420]

(07-19-2019, 05:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You think Lawrence is that sure of a thing Murdock?

Honestly, yes. I am a little biased being a Clemson fan but just watching him play. His command of the huddle, his vision, he has to be about as close to a sure thing as there has been in years.
 
Which of course means the Bengals would draft him and he'd end up like Ki-Jana Carter probably... 

[Murdock2420]

(07-19-2019, 06:22 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Would never accept tanking from this team. Never ever ever never ever. One player is not worth giving up your dignity and losing a locker room because they just weren't enough. We are far from a rebuild anyway. IMO we are just a player or two short of having something special and that's where the coaches come in. Coach em up and get the best out of every one of those guys. Guys who want to give all they got. Take it!

With the holes on the O-line, and at LB it is more then 1 or 2 players away. I get the not wanting to tank thing, but would you trade one season of bad play, and shipping off guys on the last year of their deals for high picks to get a guy that gives you a chance in every game? 

To me, I sacrifice that one season for 8 to 10 years of having the most important position on the field solidified. Would you sacrifice a 0-16 season to have 10 years of Rogers in his prime? We survived the 90's and there was no real hope in those years, this would be sucking for a reason.

[GreenCornBengal]

If we do tank for someone, they will be injured in year 1, and will have the inevitable 'year 2 rookie' syndrome that so many Bengals have had lately.

Tanking for a first round QB with our first round curse sounds like suicide.