At what point are you OK with a total rebuild

[t3r3e3]

(07-18-2019, 08:05 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: It would seem to most fans your opinion is correct.  Building a winning franchise in the NFL is not easy but some teams have better scouting, facilities, management to produce champions.  Bengals are not there yet and I know some others with myself have suffered since the 1990's.  

But things changed over the past season.  New Management paradigm, Direction, Coaching staff.  I would feel better about the upcoming season if the first rounder did not get injured before the season started.  Real downer for me.  Also, I wish Taylor had his first choice of DC and OC.  I do not know if Turner was his first choice, but it was a comfortable choice as he likes people he worked with in the past.  

Remember, Marvin Lewis came in and changed the culture of a laughing stock of a franchise and made the team respectable and post-season bound.  Lewis was not given the power to hire his own assistants or OC or DC, at least not initially.  Lewis had to tolerate the likes of Paul Alexander and Bratkowski. 

Things have changed this year in Bengal land but more changes will come and hopefully make the Franchise not only competitive but feared opponent.  

Other than a head coaching change, what actually changed?

Pathetic FA period?

Disastrous assistant coach hiring period?

Brown family speaking in condescending terms when pressed about team building strategy?

The bottom line is nothing much has changed. The same lackluster approach to building a high end NFL franchise is still alive and well. The team tried harder to get the stadium deal with the county redacted than to bring in difference makers in FA.

[*psychdoctor*]

(07-20-2019, 07:33 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Other than a head coaching change, what actually changed?

Pathetic FA period?

Disastrous assistant coach hiring period?

Brown family speaking in condescending terms when pressed about team building strategy?

The bottom line is nothing much has changed.  The same lackluster approach to building a high end NFL franchise is still alive and well.  The team tried harder to get the stadium deal with the county redacted than to bring in difference makers in FA.

Sweeping coaching changes for the first time in nearly 30 years.  They hired more coaches and assistants then ever.  
Mike Brown has stepped back.  Yes, he is alive and shows up at practices. But he is no longer THE decision maker.  
Paul Alexander was not retained.  Bengals passed on H. Jackson which is great.  In the past, Bengals would have hired Jackson as HC and not look outside the organization.  This is a big change.  Even Veteran players are excited by the change in coaches.  

What "disastrous" assistant coach are you referring?  The preseason hasn't even started.  How are you reaching a conclusion about assistant coaches ability when not a single game has been played?  
  
What difference maker FA did you expect the Bengals to sign?  Bengals tend to sign their own or to extend contracts. 
 
The area that worries me the most is the O-Line and backers.  They did not improve at all there.  I do not know what FA offensive lineman they could have signed though.  The injury to JW hurts in a bad way.  

[t3r3e3]

(07-20-2019, 09:07 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: Sweeping coaching changes for the first time in nearly 30 years.  They hired more coaches and assistants then ever.  
Mike Brown has stepped back.  Yes, he is alive and shows up at practices. But he is no longer THE decision maker.  
Paul Alexander was not retained.  Bengals passed on H. Jackson which is great.  In the past, Bengals would have hired Jackson as HC and not look outside the organization.  This is a big change.  Even Veteran players are excited by the change in coaches.  

What "disastrous" assistant coach are you referring?  The preseason hasn't even started.  How are you reaching a conclusion about assistant coaches ability when not a single game has been played?  
  
What difference maker FA did you expect the Bengals to sign?  Bengals tend to sign their own or to extend contracts. 
 
The area that worries me the most is the O-Line and backers.  They did not improve at all there.  I do not know what FA offensive lineman they could have signed though.  The injury to JW hurts in a bad way.  

Just because the Bengals finally joined the 20th century and allowed the head coach to fill his staff does not mean the staff is excellent. Hiring Jim Turner is flat embarrassing. Anuramo was about the 7th or 8th choice for DT. For that matter, the reason the HC choice is suspect is Taylor was a OC for about a season and a half if you count college, and was clearly a knee jerk reaction to the Rams success.

Going into FA/the draft OL and LB were obvious weaknesses. They’re still obvious weaknesses. It’s more of the same...

[Socal Bengals fan]

(07-20-2019, 09:33 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Just because the Bengals finally joined the 20th century and allowed the head coach to fill his staff does not mean the staff is excellent. Hiring Jim Turner is flat embarrassing. Anuramo was about the 7th or 8th choice for DT. For that matter, the reason the HC choice is suspect is Taylor was a OC for about a season and a half if you count college, and was clearly a knee jerk reaction to the Rams success.

Going into FA/the draft OL and LB were obvious weaknesses. They’re still obvious weaknesses. It’s more of the same...

Marvin is gone. 16-0 baby !! But we had injuries last year. And the o lt Team in the NFL with injuries sounds like. Happy with the Taylor hire, everything since has sucked ass.

[t3r3e3]

(07-20-2019, 10:06 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Marvin is gone. 16-0 baby !! But we had injuries last year. And the o lt Team in the NFL with injuries sounds like. Happy with the Taylor hire, everything since has sucked ass.

I like the fact they moved on from Marvin; would have rather hired Bienemy. Other than HC, the rest of the offseason was par for the course for Mike and Family. The FO’s apathetic approach makes it hard to keep loving the team. Not gonna bail, but it’s hard to get invested on what’s looking like 5-11 and the closing window of the AJ/Geno era.

[*psychdoctor*]

(07-20-2019, 09:33 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Just because the Bengals finally joined the 20th century and allowed the head coach to fill his staff does not mean the staff is excellent.  Hiring Jim Turner is flat embarrassing.  Anuramo was about the 7th or 8th choice for DT.  For that matter, the reason the HC choice is suspect is Taylor was a OC for about a season and a half if you count college, and was clearly a knee jerk reaction to the Rams success.

Going into FA/the draft OL and LB were obvious weaknesses.  They’re still obvious weaknesses.  It’s more of the same...

No one is saying the staff is excellent.  I was referring to your original comments that there were really no changes.  Bengals wanted an offensive minded coach and Taylor was the hot commodity along with Eric Bieniemy.  I was leaning toward Bieniemy myself but also think Taylor was a good choice.  

I am holding judgment on Turner until after this season just to see if Hart et al.  improve.  I really wanted JDR for DC.  Taylor wanted others but they declined.  You can't blame Taylor if candidates decline.  

I will say the Bengals are unspectacular with FA picks. They do not bring in difference makers.  And yes, the OL and LB positions have not improved.  I do not understand why the OL has been neglected for years in terms of quality along the line. It seems the Bengals are content to just get by with the OL. Paul Brown always built the trenches. Bengals need to go back to this way of thinking.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-19-2019, 09:41 PM)NKURyan Wrote: The problem with the plan of tanking for Trevor Lawrence is that if he doesn't want to come here it'd all be for nothing.

Is he that type of guy? I have no clue. But I'm willing to bet that two years out nobody has any idea what this kid's intentions are, and selling a franchise coming off a (theoretical) 0-16 season and (theoretically) 6 losing seasons in a row, with no real history of winning, a pretty meager and negative fanbase... that's no sure thing at all. It's fun to sit here and pretend that we could get Lawrence to fall right in our laps and that he'd come marching in to save the franchise... but who's to say he'd be the slightest bit interested in that?

Can't count on it, so don't do it.

I agree, Dalton isn't the problem with this team anyways...

(07-19-2019, 11:08 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I would put Glenn at LG and give the biggest, strongest three the middle spots.  I think ZT had that in mind all along.  Westerman, Redmond, and Jordan can provide quality depth and competition for the RG spot.  Maybe the next year, either Trent goes to RT (makes sense) or we try Jonah over there.  

Either way, I want a great line...always been the formula for success with AD.  

Yeah, it all starts from the trenches out and I cannot imagine Mixon running behind a great Line. Could be amazing.

Just saw the latest fluff piece from Hobspin about Westerman though, we will see. Not like Glenn was even good at LT last year, let alone LG.

Doesn't matter if you have the body type if you do not have the technique to play LG. 

From what I have seen Westerman is a better LG than Glenn at this point even. Doesn't matter about size if you play like a wimp like Glenn did last season at times. Regardless of what a guy like Fred would say about pay, that doesn't matter either, have to perform well. Glenn didn't last season and I saw him whiff quite a few times where he should of pancaked dudes. All I want is the best five starting on the Line but I do agree that it seems Turner, Zac and Callahan want a big strong bully Line which I am all for as long as they play like it.

(07-20-2019, 12:28 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Honestly, yes. I am a little biased being a Clemson fan but just watching him play. His command of the huddle, his vision, he has to be about as close to a sure thing as there has been in years.
 
Which of course means the Bengals would draft him and he'd end up like Ki-Jana Carter probably... 

So that idea is out eh? lol

[THE PISTONS]

I don't know that NFL Teams really need to do a full trade all the stars for draft picks and lose for 3-4 years like teams in other sports do. Yeah the Raiders and Browns are both in various phases of it, but I think it's not necessary.

IF you can nail 2-3 drafts in a row and get a bunch of quality players over that 2-3 years...you are competing. It's what we did starting with Dalton and Green years ago. We just started to miss a lot at some point. And we missed in a big way with Ced and Fisher.

Then with cap space, you sign a few upgrades and bam...you remake your roster in a hurry.

That said, we just don't use free agency in a big way except on rare occasions.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-20-2019, 07:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree, Dalton isn't the problem with this team anyways...



Yeah, it all starts from the trenches out and I cannot imagine Mixon running behind a great Line. Could be amazing.

Just saw the latest fluff piece from Hobspin about Westerman though, we will see. Not like Glenn was even good at LT last year, let alone LG.

Doesn't matter if you have the body type if you do not have the technique to play LG. 

From what I have seen Westerman is a better LG than Glenn at this point even. Doesn't matter about size if you play like a wimp like Glenn did last season at times. Regardless of what a guy like Fred would say about pay, that doesn't matter either, have to perform well. Glenn didn't last season and I saw him whiff quite a few times where he should of pancaked dudes. All I want is the best five starting on the Line but I do agree that it seems Turner, Zac and Callahan want a big strong bully Line which I am all for as long as they play like it.


So that idea is out eh? lol

Agree. I'm really worried about the offensive line. Individually I can't look at any single player and be like...That guy is even average. They're all below average or worse.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-21-2019, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agree. I'm really worried about the offensive line. Individually I can't look at any single player and be like...That guy is even average. They're all below average or worse.

They all definately need to improve big time. I think there is hope with Price and Westerman with their upside, same with Jonah eventually and Jordan but losing Boling and Jonah hurts no lie. I am usually really positive but with the loss of Jonah my previous thoughts of the Line being better than last year are now in question in my mind till I see it. I actually like Turner though, we will see how he works out. Taylor and Callahan's Offense needs to help the Line out, possible with Dalton and Mixon, both are pretty good at making a Line look better than it really is.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-21-2019, 06:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They all definately need to improve big time. I think there is hope with Price and Westerman with their upside, same with Jonah eventually and Jordan but losing Boling and Jonah hurts no lie. I am usually really positive but with the loss of Jonah my previous thoughts of the Line being better than last year are now in question in my mind till I see it. I actually like Turner though, we will see how he works out. Taylor and Callahan's Offense needs to help the Line out, possible with Dalton and Mixon, both are pretty good at making a Line look better than it really is.

I think the question is though: Can a team win with only 3-4 guys on offense that would be starters on most teams?

None of our offensive lineman would start on most teams. Green would. Mixon would. Boyd would.

Dalton would start on maybe half of the NFL Teams. Same with Eifert.

So basically over half of our offense is below average starters.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-21-2019, 07:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think the question is though: Can a team win with only 3-4 guys on offense that would be starters on most teams?

None of our offensive lineman would start on most teams. Green would. Mixon would. Boyd would.

Dalton would start on maybe half of the NFL Teams. Same with Eifert.

So basically over half of our offense is below average starters.

I'm attaching an article on Glenn because I think it shows what Glenn was before coming to Cincinnati (insert Bengalized joke here).  He was injured during parts of last season and clearly underachieved.  How much of it was Glenn and how much of it was the scheme and learning from a new offensive line coach?  He is learning a new offense again, but maybe he returns to his prior to 2018 form?  

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-bills-t-cordy-glenn-still-recovering-from-injury

A couple key points from the article:  

• Seen as one of the premier pass-blocking tackles in the league, Glenn has ranked inside the top 20 every season but one in terms of pass-blocking grade with grades of 84.0 (2013), 83.2 (2014), 87.6 (2015) and 86.4 (2016). The only exception came in his rookie season.
• Last season, Glenn only surrendered 17 total pressures, which ranked third among OTs, and had a pass-blocking efficiency of 96.4, which ranked eighth.
  

I see Glenn as a key piece in terms of returning to his prior form, or at least closer to it than he was last year.

Westerman is finally going to get his shot at the position he supposedly covets, and if he can avoid some strange disease where he drops 20 lbs right before the season starts, he could be an upgrade over Boling.  Sure, he lacks Boling's consistency but he is definitely a stronger guy and showed in limited action what he could do in the past couple years.

Price is the guy I am most excited about.  He looks absolutely massive, and seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder.  He will be 100% for the first time in his young NFL career, and with a full camp and everyone learning a new offense together, I think his leadership and abilities will shine.  I think he will be the most improved player on the team.  

I honestly haven't watched Miller enough to speak accurately about him.  All I know is the Bengals wanted him and he has solid rankings, especially in run blocking.  A big upgrade over last year's tough but undisciplined Redmond.

And everyone's favorite whipping boy, Bobby Hart.  A man who turns 25 at the start of the season.  He has all the measurables.  He has a lot of NFL experience, but always made the dumb penalty at the wrong time.  I think he played well enough last year that being next to a more experienced RG will show a significant upgrade over a year ago.  People forget that Whit didn't start at OT until he was 27.  I remember Whit getting absolutely destroyed by Dwight Freeny at a game when he got moved to LT and he was coming back to the huddle with a dazed look on his face and shaking his head in disbelief.  I thought to myself:  "That guy has no business being out there" and now he is a borderline HOF.

I am not calling Hart a future HOF, but I do believe he will be in the top half of the league this year.  And that will be the makings of a very solid line.  There isn't a lot of depth, but the added running backs combined with the added emphasis on the rushing attack should play to the strengths of this line.  

[kevin]

(07-18-2019, 11:15 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: New coach gives us hope for the coming year but if we get poor results are we better off playing the same cards in 2020 or should they cut their losses and try to build a whole new team? Even if they win eight games they are stuck drafting from a point that the QBs are gone. When the trade deadline comes and we are floundering I believe trading our aging players for draft picks will make the rebuild easier. The short time results would definitely be disheartening but I believe it would start us off in the new decade in a much better position. I know my views are not what is popular but it may be necessary to cut bait and rebuild.

Geeze, Fans on here are so into the Draft.  No, I don't want to see an all rookie team.   and no to the guy who is all into the 2021 draft in 2019.   The Bengals actually have a bunch of young players sitting under the Christmas Tree they have hardly used yet.   Then there is this thing of Trades. Fans think NFL trades are so easy to make.  People in the game say they are not.  

Now lets look at Bengals success in Drafts.  Every 1st round pick each year is injured and misses most or all their rookie year.  Excuse me if I'm not excited about trading for more of that. 

I'm all for NEW DEY.   That does not mean I want every veteran shipped off for an all rookie team to get clobbered.  If Bengals are lucky they may add a few good rookies each year that may become starters.  But the draft brings a lot of Duds also.  Making the jump from college to pro is not that easy.  For every few draft picks that do good, the majority don't make it. 

IF this team can block in 2019,  they have the players to pass, catch, run, score.  IF this team can block, Green, Boyd, Mixon, Dalton and others could score a lot of points.  It is not impossible for this team to block. 

So I'm not all into the negativity carried over from the last few bad seasons.  Or the negativity of people posting they don't like the off season moves. I'm not into the negativity at all.  So at what point am I for blowing it all up in a total rebuild ?   They just blew it up getting all new coaches and many new players. No, I don't ever want everybody let go for an all rookie team.  They would get killed and most would not develop into good starters anyway.  So here is to 2019 and NEW DEY.   I'm not even thinking 2020 draft and I'm sure not thinking 2021 draft and these coaches and players aren't either. GO BENGALS in 2019.  

I'm hoping the Bengals have some young players on this team that are here for a lot of years. The Bengals have good young talent at every position. This team already has many stars of the future on it. Bengals already have a lot of good young players from last 3 or 4 drafts that are just getting going. Bates Motel for one.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-22-2019, 09:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm attaching an article on Glenn because I think it shows what Glenn was before coming to Cincinnati (insert Bengalized joke here).  He was injured during parts of last season and clearly underachieved.  How much of it was Glenn and how much of it was the scheme and learning from a new offensive line coach?  He is learning a new offense again, but maybe he returns to his prior to 2018 form?  

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-bills-t-cordy-glenn-still-recovering-from-injury

A couple key points from the article:  

• Seen as one of the premier pass-blocking tackles in the league, Glenn has ranked inside the top 20 every season but one in terms of pass-blocking grade with grades of 84.0 (2013), 83.2 (2014), 87.6 (2015) and 86.4 (2016). The only exception came in his rookie season.
• Last season, Glenn only surrendered 17 total pressures, which ranked third among OTs, and had a pass-blocking efficiency of 96.4, which ranked eighth.
  

I see Glenn as a key piece in terms of returning to his prior form, or at least closer to it than he was last year.

Westerman is finally going to get his shot at the position he supposedly covets, and if he can avoid some strange disease where he drops 20 lbs right before the season starts, he could be an upgrade over Boling.  Sure, he lacks Boling's consistency but he is definitely a stronger guy and showed in limited action what he could do in the past couple years.

Price is the guy I am most excited about.  He looks absolutely massive, and seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder.  He will be 100% for the first time in his young NFL career, and with a full camp and everyone learning a new offense together, I think his leadership and abilities will shine.  I think he will be the most improved player on the team.  

I honestly haven't watched Miller enough to speak accurately about him.  All I know is the Bengals wanted him and he has solid rankings, especially in run blocking.  A big upgrade over last year's tough but undisciplined Redmond.

And everyone's favorite whipping boy, Bobby Hart.  A man who turns 25 at the start of the season.  He has all the measurables.  He has a lot of NFL experience, but always made the dumb penalty at the wrong time.  I think he played well enough last year that being next to a more experienced RG will show a significant upgrade over a year ago.  People forget that Whit didn't start at OT until he was 27.  I remember Whit getting absolutely destroyed by Dwight Freeny at a game when he got moved to LT and he was coming back to the huddle with a dazed look on his face and shaking his head in disbelief.  I thought to myself:  "That guy has no business being out there" and now he is a borderline HOF.

I am not calling Hart a future HOF, but I do believe he will be in the top half of the league this year.  And that will be the makings of a very solid line.  There isn't a lot of depth, but the added running backs combined with the added emphasis on the rushing attack should play to the strengths of this line.  

One hidden thing in the Glenn statistics is that in 2016 he got injured and only played in 11 games...so while his grade was high, that injury seemed to be the start of his decline. Then the next season he only played in 6 games.

Then we traded for him and he played in 13 games.

But, the last 2 years he's graded out poorly.

Buffalo likely saw the decline coming and traded him.

[NKURyan]

(07-21-2019, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agree. I'm really worried about the offensive line. Individually I can't look at any single player and be like...That guy is even average. They're all below average or worse.

I suppose I feel OK about Glenn and Price. Glenn because he's done well in the past and I don't remember noticing him all that often last year, and Price because I'm expecting him to take a step forward in his second year. Neither is a sure thing admittedly, but I can roll with both I suppose.

For a guy that quotes PFF scores as much as you do I think you at least have to be willing to give Westerman a chance. My understanding is they've scored him very high and like him a lot - I think they've called him a guy they like to see more of and so I'm not going to necessarily throw in the towel on him just yet.

I do worry about the right side of the line. Maybe the coaching staff actually does manage to improve the play of Hart, but I need to see it before I believe it. I think there's a decent chance we see Jordan at RG. A lot of question marks over there. I expect Drew Sample to spend a lot of time lined up next to Hart as well.

My biggest concern is just depth, particularly at tackle. Not sure what happens if Glenn gets hurt. 

[GreenCornBengal]

I personally feel a change in offensive scheme will really help the O-line perform better this year. Watching the Rams last year, they gave guys help, chipped, entangled, and confused the defense.

On the other hand, our offense left our worst O-lineman in 1v1 situations with HoF type players all too often. Watching last years games felt like watching the exact same gameplan each week and betting on the chance that 'we just have to do our jobs better!"

[fredtoast]

(07-21-2019, 07:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: None of our offensive lineman would start on most teams.

Here you go again just making stuff up.

Cordy Glenn has always been a starter and would start on most teams.

Nick Price is a first round pick who would start on most teams.

John Jerry has over 100 career starts.

John Miller was a starter last year and has been a starter most of his career.

[fredtoast]

(07-21-2019, 07:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So basically over half of our offense is below average starters.

Half of all the starters in the league are below average.

[fredtoast]

(07-20-2019, 12:31 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: With the holes on the O-line, and at LB it is more then 1 or 2 players away. I get the not wanting to tank thing, but would you trade one season of bad play, and shipping off guys on the last year of their deals for high picks to get a guy that gives you a chance in every game? 

To me, I sacrifice that one season for 8 to 10 years of having the most important position on the field solidified. Would you sacrifice a 0-16 season to have 10 years of Rogers in his prime? We survived the 90's and there was no real hope in those years, this would be sucking for a reason.

Here is the problem with your logic.  Lots of "can't miss" guys actually miss.

You mention Rodgers and he is a perfect example.  Alex Smith was the #1 overall "can't miss" pick in the '05 draft  and he won a total of 19 games in his first six seasons.  Rodgers was not taken until the bottom quarter of the first round (24th) just one pick in front of Jason Campbell.

[Catmandude123]

(07-22-2019, 10:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: One hidden thing in the Glenn statistics is that in 2016 he got injured and only played in 11 games...so while his grade was high, that injury seemed to be the start of his decline. Then the next season he only played in 6 games.

Then we traded for him and he played in 13 games.

But, the last 2 years he's graded out poorly.

Buffalo likely saw the decline coming and traded him.

Buffalo already had his replacement so trading him wasn't much of a risk. Dropped 10 mil off the roster and moved up in the draft. Pretty good move. Something the Bengals would ever do with their vets. They are loyal to a fault.