QB candidates for 2020 Draft

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-04-2019, 09:07 AM)Au165 Wrote: Coming out of the weekend, I'd handicap them Burrow>Tua>Fromm>Herbert...the rest. People are going to hate Fromm here in Cincy because he reminds them of Andy Dalton but there are a ton of teams who would love a QB like that in the mid to late 1st. I am in the camp that would prefer to get a QB who can carry a team, and that isn't Fromm, but he is a guy who you will be able to win with in this league.

As to Herbert, the stats look better than the tape. He looks like the same guy who chose to go back to school last year and I will say what I said a month ago, whoever drafts Herbert will be drafting another QB within 4/5 years.

I think Hurts brings more to the NFL than Fromm.  Fromm is a game manager but has skill.  As for Herbert and Eason.  Both have cannons for arm but I agree with earlier post that he should stay in school.

For those that think QB will be there in round 3, I just think there will be a run on QB early.  I really would like Bengals to take Chase Young and Hurts in 1-2 but I am not certain Hurts will be there.  I think he should but if not Hurts, then maybe Love or Gordon would bring more than Finley.  

If Finley looks good these last 8 games, I still think Bengals will take Burrow.  Burrow is elite of group.  My only concern is his attitude.  

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2019, 10:21 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Hurts brings more to the NFL than Fromm.  Fromm is a game manager but has skill.  As for Herbert and Eason.  Both have cannons for arm but I agree with earlier post that he should stay in school.

For those that think QB will be there in round 3, I just think there will be a run on QB early.  I really would like Bengals to take Chase Young and Hurts in 1-2 but I am not certain Hurts will be there.  I think he should but if not Hurts, then maybe Love or Gordon would bring more than Finley.  

If Finley looks good these last 8 games, I still think Bengals will take Burrow.  Burrow is elite of group.  My only concern is his attitude.  

I'm very iffy on Hurts because he didnt look as good as he does now in the SEC and I know how very average QBs can tear up the bad defensive in the Big12....especially the Powerhouse Oklahoma QBs.

[Au165]

(11-04-2019, 10:21 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Hurts brings more to the NFL than Fromm.  Fromm is a game manager but has skill.  As for Herbert and Eason.  Both have cannons for arm but I agree with earlier post that he should stay in school.

For those that think QB will be there in round 3, I just think there will be a run on QB early.  I really would like Bengals to take Chase Young and Hurts in 1-2 but I am not certain Hurts will be there.  I think he should but if not Hurts, then maybe Love or Gordon would bring more than Finley.  

If Finley looks good these last 8 games, I still think Bengals will take Burrow.  Burrow is elite of group.  My only concern is his attitude.  

Fromm is an NFL QB 100%, there is a place for that guy in the NFL leading a team. "Game Manager" has a bad connotation around it but you can win in this league with game managers. He can make NFL throws when he needs to but he is also facing the better competition then guys like Herbert, Hurts, Eason. He could be Andy Dalton, and as much as some hate the guy, Andy Dalton was the 2nd best QB from that class and a top 15ish QB drafted since he was taken, as crazy as that sounds. 

Hurts to me offers very little in terms of NFL success. He is a product of the Oklahoma system and bad Big 12 defenses boosted by CD Lamb possibly being the next OBJ in terms of his ability to take a 5 yard slant 80 yards at any second. In terms of passing he plays within the system but he is a relatively average passer. Don't let big numbers fool you into projecting future success, as Mayfield continues to struggle and Murray is yet to be determined I'd be leery of OU QB's.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2019, 11:58 AM)Au165 Wrote: Fromm is an NFL QB 100%, there is a place for that guy in the NFL leading a team. "Game Manager" has a bad connotation around it but you can win in this league with game managers. He can make NFL throws when he needs to but he is also facing the better competition then guys like Herbert, Hurts, Eason. He could be Andy Dalton, and as much as some hate the guy, Andy Dalton was the 2nd best QB from that class and a top 15ish QB drafted since he was taken, as crazy as that sounds. 

Hurts to me offers very little in terms of NFL success. He is a product of the Oklahoma system and bad Big 12 defenses boosted by CD Lamb possibly being the next OBJ in terms of his ability to take a 5 yard slant 80 yards at any second. In terms of passing he plays within the system but he is a relatively average passer. Don't let big numbers fool you into projecting future success, as Mayfield continues to struggle and Murray is yet to be determined I'd be leery of OU QB's.

I'm with you on Jake Fromm he doesnt put up the flashy stats but he wouldnt in the run heavy Georgia offense but he RUNS that offense it's not done from the sideline. Fromm sets his protections makes checks etc. He is an NFL ready QB day 1.

That's a big sell for Burrow you know hes ready to play day 1.

[*Synric*]

Steve Clarkson, one of the top QB coaches, will be on The Draft Dudes podcast Wedensday to talk about Tua Tagovailoa and Joe Burrow before their head to head matchup Saturday.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-04-2019, 11:58 AM)Synric Wrote: I'm very iffy on Hurts because he didnt look as good as he does now in the SEC and I know how very average QBs can tear up the bad defensive in the Big12....especially the Powerhouse Oklahoma QBs.

Hurts is more mature and has experience now.  Hard to determine if his improvements are a natural progression of repetitions or if he is a product of a system.  I will say this about Hurts from a psychological perspective, he is mentally tough and is a leader.  

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-04-2019, 05:27 PM)Synric Wrote: Steve Clarkson, one of the top QB coaches, will be on The Draft Dudes podcast Wedensday to talk about Tua Tagovailoa and Joe Burrow before their head to head matchup Saturday.

I think Dolphins will pick Tua.  I have no evidence for this opinion, just a feeling.  If not for his injuries, I think Tua would go number 1, but Burrow is shooting up draft boards.

I think Burrow is Bengals guy, and I would be thrilled to have him but I also would like Chase Young and Hurts.  Herbert is mentally tough and he is growing on me but he does seem to get rattled and Oregon has a good OL.  

[Hammerstripes]

Jake Fromm = Andy Dalton. To me they are the same QB. I like both, but we've already seen what a Dalton type QB can do in Cincy.

That being said, I think Eason's propensity to make some big errors along with some big throws is a problem. If we don't go Tua/Burrow/Herbert, I would rather what until next year. There's much too big of a drop after those 3.

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-04-2019, 07:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Jake Fromm = Andy Dalton.  To me they are the same QB.  I like both, but we've already seen what a Dalton type QB can do in Cincy.

That being said, I think Eason's propensity to make some big errors along with some big throws is a problem.  If we don't go Tua/Burrow/Herbert, I would rather what until next year.  There's much too big of a drop after those 3.

I think Eason needs to stay another year.  He has the arm, but his decision making needs more time.  This last game, his WR did not help.  

If the Bengals have the #1 pick, they could trade down a couple slots and still get one of the big 3 QB.  I still think Burrow is their guy.  Just a feeling.  

[Hammerstripes]

(11-04-2019, 07:11 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Eason needs to stay another year.  He has the arm, but his decision making needs more time.  This last game, his WR did not help.  

If the Bengals have the #1 pick, they could trade down a couple slots and still get one of the big 3 QB.  I still think Burrow is their guy.  Just a feeling.  

For me, the best scenario would be for them to have the #1 pick, either the Jets or Redskins at #2.  The Dolphins offer up a 2 to jump up and get Tua, we sit still at 3 and take Burrow.

From what I've seen, the only 2 guys that I want are Burrow and Tua in that order.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-04-2019, 10:21 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Hurts brings more to the NFL than Fromm.  Fromm is a game manager but has skill.  As for Herbert and Eason.  Both have cannons for arm but I agree with earlier post that he should stay in school.

For those that think QB will be there in round 3, I just think there will be a run on QB early.  I really would like Bengals to take Chase Young and Hurts in 1-2 but I am not certain Hurts will be there.  I think he should but if not Hurts, then maybe Love or Gordon would bring more than Finley.  

If Finley looks good these last 8 games, I still think Bengals will take Burrow.  Burrow is elite of group.  My only concern is his attitude.  

I get RG3 vibes from Hurts. I think he can be very successful in the right offense, but there's risk there. If he's not in an offense that utilizes his mobility, he'll have a higher chance to bust.
I see Fromm as a game manager too but I think that can succeed in the NFL pretty much anywhere. The key will be putting him with a team with a good defense and running game. Fromm could end up being Brady's new backup to be groomed.
Herbert reminds me of Carson Wentz.
Tua has some Russell Wilson to him.
Eason reminds me of...Matthew Stafford maybe?

[*bfine32*]

If we do go Tua and now he's my favorite. We will probably move Jonah Williams to RT. Tua is one of those very rare Lefty QBs

[Au165]

(11-05-2019, 05:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If we do go Tua and now he's my favorite. We will probably move Jonah Williams to RT. Tua is one of those very rare Lefty QBs

I don't think we will. People think moving a tackle from one side to the other is easy, but honestly it's not. They are wired to kick step a certain way and use hand placement a certain way and it's not as simple as just flipping it. Williams hasn't played RT since his freshman year and it was his elite LT play that got him drafted where he was. One added benefit to a left handed QB is that you usually attach the TE with the RT so you gain the benefit of having a double team on the blindside rusher and your best O linemen singled up on the front side. 

One other thing to remember, the best pass rushers simply move now to the best match up. It used to be that the blindside offered an advantage but then everyone moved their best tackles there so coordinators responded by just moving their best rusher to the other side. A lot of the best rushers in the league rush opposite the best tackle now.

[shanebo]

(11-04-2019, 07:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Jake Fromm = Andy Dalton.  To me they are the same QB.  I like both, but we've already seen what a Dalton type QB can do in Cincy.

That being said, I think Eason's propensity to make some big errors along with some big throws is a problem.  If we don't go Tua/Burrow/Herbert, I would rather what until next year.  There's much too big of a drop after those 3.

Agree that Fromm reminds me of Dalton.  Unless he shows a lot more over the last few games of the season, I really have no interest in drafting him.

I'm really liking Eason, though.  Although he sucked v Utah, he looked really good against Oregon.  Better than Herbert, I thought.  He actually reminds me of a poor man's Brett Favhre.  Or a rich man's Jay Cutler.  He's my third favorite in this class, after Tua and Burrow.  I'd be fine taking him at the top of Rd. 2. 

[Hammerstripes]

(11-06-2019, 01:46 PM)shanebo Wrote: Agree that Fromm reminds me of Dalton.  Unless he shows a lot more over the last few games of the season, I really have no interest in drafting him.

I'm really liking Eason, though.  Although he sucked v Utah, he looked really good against Oregon.  Better than Herbert, I thought.  He actually reminds me of a poor man's Brett Favhre.  Or a rich man's Jay Cutler.  He's my third favorite in this class, after Tua and Burrow.  I'd be fine taking him at the top of Rd. 2. 

That's the problem.  There's no way in the world he's getting out of the top 15.

[*bfine32*]

(11-06-2019, 11:20 AM)Au165 Wrote: I don't think we will. People think moving a tackle from one side to the other is easy, but honestly it's not. They are wired to kick step a certain way and use hand placement a certain way and it's not as simple as just flipping it. Williams hasn't played RT since his freshman year and it was his elite LT play that got him drafted where he was. One added benefit to a left handed QB is that you usually attach the TE with the RT so you gain the benefit of having a double team on the blindside rusher and your best O linemen singled up on the front side. 

One other thing to remember, the best pass rushers simply move now to the best match up. It used to be that the blindside offered an advantage but then everyone moved their best tackles there so coordinators responded by just moving their best rusher to the other side. A lot of the best rushers in the league rush opposite the best tackle now.

Williams was a Freshman All-American at RT. Regardless where the Defense lines up the QB still has the same blindside and that's where you want your best pass protector. 

[*psychdoctor*]

(11-06-2019, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Williams was a Freshman All-American at RT. Regardless where the Defense lines up the QB still has the same blindside and that's where you want your best pass protector. 

I think Jonah would move to RT if they grab someone like Wanagoho, Thomas, Austin Jackson, I Jackson.  My concern of moving Williams to the RT however, is he seems to be finesse type which better serves LT.  IF Williams struggles, I think he could move to inside.  

[*bfine32*]

(11-06-2019, 08:26 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think Jonah would move to RT if they grab someone like Wanagoho, Thomas, Austin Jackson, I Jackson.  My concern of moving Williams to the RT however, is he seems to be finesse type which better serves LT.  IF Williams struggles, I think he could move to inside.  

It most likely all changes. The left side becomes the strong side. You want your best pass protector on the blindside.

[Au165]

(11-06-2019, 07:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Williams was a Freshman All-American at RT. Regardless where the Defense lines up the QB still has the same blindside and that's where you want your best pass protector. 

Right....and then they moved him. Why did Saban move him to LT with a left handed QB if it's so important to protect that blindside? Answer, because it really isn't the big a deal. Like I said you are more likely to attach a TE to the RT so with that in mind you can double the blind side. You play guys at their best position, not because of some old wives tale about how important the "blind side" is. It is a pretty commonly held belief today that it really isn't anymore important than the other tackle position. The Raiders paid Trent Brown massive money and everyone thought it was to be the "blind side" protector, but instead they played him at RT, the position they felt he played best (Which he has played really well this year by the way).

If you have the athletic this is a great explanation by Ross Tucker who used to be a linemen but now is an analyst. It starts diving into the schematic reasons why in today's NFL it really doesn't matter.

https://theathletic.com/1023509/2019/06/12/there-is-no-longer-a-distinction-between-left-tackles-and-right-tackles/

The final thought is kind of my point...

Quote:What does it all mean?


It means you better have a right tackle who can pass protect and not play like a slower-footed ogre like some teams have put out there. Look at the teams that went far in the playoffs last year and you quickly realize they all had very good right tackle play. It’s become a premium position in a passing league focused on affecting the quarterback even if the salaries haven’t all caught up to that reality yet.

It also means that if you hear someone continuing to make a distinction between left and right tackle you should probably stop listening to them because their thinking is outdated.

[shanebo]

(11-06-2019, 02:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: That's the problem.  There's no way in the world he's getting out of the top 15.

Really?  You think he'll go that high?  (not challenging you, just curious ...)  From what I've seen, most pundits, to the extent you can believe/trust them, have the QBs ranked as Tua, Herbert, Burrow, Fromm (in some order), then Eason, then Love, then Hurts.  

I don't think that 5 QBs will be drafted in the top 15 -- that's only happened once (1999), and only 3 teams currently picking in the top 15 are desperate for a QB (Bengals, Dolphins, and Bucs).  I guess the Chargers (currently 14) could grab a Rivers replacement, and the Titans (15) could decide that Tannehill/Mariota is a no go.  I think Titans are more likely to go QB than Chargers.  Carolina (19) could trade up, I guess, since the scuttlebutt is that Cam is no mas and Kyle Allen is mediocre.  So it could happen.  Man, that '99 draft is the stuff of nightmares ... if we pick No. 3 again, that's some real bad juju!

Or do you think that Eason will leapfrog Herbert and Fromm, and be the third QB off the board?  Pull a Josh Allen?  That would be disappointing, but the most likely scenario.  Even though it may not matter for us since I'm pretty sure we'll go Tua or Burrow regardless ...