Post Trade Deadline, did the team get better?

[Yojimbo]

Did the moves make the Reds more likely to make the postseason this year? To me, at best it is treading water and at worst the got worse by losing their biggest bat.

Going into the deadline, the biggest weakness was the bullpen and they added nothing there, while numerous relievers were traded around the league. We swapped out Roark for Bauer, so slight improvement there, but the weakest link, Mahle, was already bumped from the rotation with the return of Wood.

[NKURyan]

Short term I think they are slightly better, but still not good enough to actually accomplish anything of value.

Long term they're just treading water. Another player who'll be gone after next season (if he isn't dealt before then), while swapping one prospect (Trammel) for another (Hannah).

If the Reds are average-to-good enough next year to convince themselves they're in it (which evidently means <10 games under .500), they won't trade Bauer and they'll walk away with nothing ("but hey, we tried!"). If the Reds aren't competitive next year they'll flip Bauer and once again we'll look another year or two down the line.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Yes, they are better and Puig was not even close to their biggest bat. Defensively, he was easily their best outfielder but he is still behind almost every fast ball thrown to him. I'm confused as to why anyone would throw him an off-speed pitch in the strike zone. I could be wrong, but I don't remember him squaring up a fastball all year and I've watched every game. He may have gotten a blooper hit or a swinging bunt off of a fastball but I don't remember him crushing a line drive off of a fastball, even for an out. It was all curves and sliders in his highlight reels.

Bauer is better than Roark and I loved watching Roark pitch.
Gennett wasn't squaring up many pitches either. I've not given up on Peraza. Remember, only Barry Larkin has more hits in a season playing SS in a Reds uniform and he only did that once. Peraza's 182 hits last year is second most ever for a Reds SS and that list includes Zack Cozart and Dave Concepcion.

They tried to get relievers but other teams were asking too much for a two month rental so they pulled back. To me it all now keys on whether Hernandez can bounce back or not.

[Circleville Guy]

If Bauer and Wood both pitch their best baseball, things could still get interesting this year. I doubt that it happens but it could. It’s important to evaluate JVM, Peraza and Ervin this year to know what to obtain in the offseason. The goal this offseason should be to add players that are better than platoon level players and to add relievers.

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2019, 05:06 PM)NKURyan Wrote:  Another player who'll be gone after next season (if he isn't dealt before then)

Roark would have been gone after THIS season.  Bauer is signed through next season.

[NKURyan]

(08-01-2019, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Roark would have been gone after THIS season.  Bauer is signed through next season.

That's exactly what I said, Fred - another player (Bauer) who'll be gone after next season. When all is said and done he might spend two more months worth of games in a Reds uniform than Roark did. Huzzah.

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2019, 06:41 PM)NKURyan Wrote: That's exactly what I said, Fred - another player (Bauer) who'll be gone after next season. When all is said and done he might spend two more months worth of games in a Reds uniform than Roark did. Huzzah.

So how is swapping a player that will be gone after this year for a BETTER guy who will be here a year longer "treading water"?

Roark was with the Reds for 105 games.  Bauer should be here over TWICE as long (219 games).

Can't believe there are Reds fans who would rather constantly watch 100 loss seasons instead of actually trying to win.

[NKURyan]

(08-01-2019, 07:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So how is swapping a player that will be gone after this year for a BETTER guy who will be here a year longer "treading water"?

Roark was with the Reds for 105 games.  Bauer should be here over TWICE as long (219 games).

Can't believe there are Reds fans who would rather constantly watch 100 loss seasons instead of actually trying to win.

Did you even read my first post in this thread? JFC, I flat out said "short term I think they are marginally better".

Either the Reds are "competitive" next year, Bauer doesn't get traded, and he walks at the end of the season putting the Reds right back to square one, or the Reds are out of it, trade Bauer for the future, and the Reds are right back to square one again. Meaning that, like I said right in my first post, they're treading water LONG TERM.

You need to try actually reading what people write, it might save you some trouble. It's like you try to be as obtuse as possible.

As for watching 100 loss seasons, I'm sure Astros fans and Cubs fans are really ticked off about having to sit through those now that they've won world championships and are consistently among the best in the league. I can't believe there are fans happy to watch them stumble towards between 65 and 75 wins every year instead of actually trying to win, but there you are.

[*psychdoctor*]

The Reds' pitching staff definitely improved and will be formidable for 2020. Trading Puig will give Ervin more playing time and trading Gennett will give JVM playing time so the offense may be slightly improved. Trammell for Hannah is about the same.

I said this in other threads and I do not mean to grumble but Stroman was making 7.7 Mil per year, the Reds could have maybe signed him to an extension similar to Gray or slightly higher for the long-term.

Bauer is against extensions longer than a year but who knows. He may like Johnson and others here and sign long-term.

Short-term: Reds are better for 2020.
Long-Term: Reds are not there yet and probably would have not improve long-term even if they kept Puig and Gennett for the year. The Reds need to extend Wood if he is healthy.

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2019, 07:13 PM)NKURyan Wrote: As for watching 100 loss seasons, I'm sure Astros fans and Cubs fans are really ticked off about having to sit through those now that they've won world championships and are consistently among the best in the league. I can't believe there are fans happy to watch them stumble towards between 65 and 75 wins every year instead of actually trying to win, but there you are.

The reason the Stros and Cubs finally won a world series is because they stopped trading away every decent player they had for more prospects.

[NKURyan]

(08-03-2019, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The reason the Stros and Cubs finally won a world series is because they stopped trading away every decent player they had for more prospects.

No, they realized that you don't win championships with decent players and instead shipped them out for guys that they though would become great players in a couple of years, then started pursuing veteran guys through free agency and trades when the time was right for them to cash in and actually make a run at greatness rather than wasting those moves (and money) before the time was right to actually win. They realized that sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward and it paid off big for both teams.

[McC]

(08-03-2019, 01:25 PM)NKURyan Wrote: No, they realized that you don't win championships with decent players and instead shipped them out for guys that they though would become great players in a couple of years, then started pursuing veteran guys through free agency and trades when the time was right for them to cash in and actually make a run at greatness rather than wasting those moves (and money) before the time was right to actually win. They realized that sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward and it paid off big for both teams.

And it only took them fifteen years to get there.  And both have budgets probably twice what the Reds have.  So it's exactly the same. 

[NKURyan]

(08-03-2019, 02:50 PM)McC Wrote: And it only took them fifteen years to get there.  And both have budgets probably twice what the Reds have.  So it's exactly the same. 

Fifteen years? The Astros played in a World Series 10 years before 2015 (when they returned to the playoffs), and finished with a winning record as late as 2008. The Cubs were winning the division (twice!) less than 10 years before their World Series win. So that's a bit of an exaggeration, as at worst it took half that (and even less if you ignore the couple of years it probably took for both franchises to actually decide that it was the route to embrace).

[McC]

(08-03-2019, 10:00 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Fifteen years? The Astros played in a World Series 10 years before 2015 (when they returned to the playoffs), and finished with a winning record as late as 2008. The Cubs were winning the division (twice!) less than 10 years before their World Series win. So that's a bit of an exaggeration, as at worst it took half that (and even less if you ignore the couple of years it probably took for both franchises to actually decide that it was the route to embrace).

Okay.  And what about that tiny little insignificant thing called the budgets?

[grampahol]

Quote:Bauer is against extensions longer than a year but who knows. He may like Johnson and others here and sign long-term. 

I'm not sure how long Johnson himself may be with the Reds. How long of a contract did he receive?  I know Brewers fans were sorely disappointed to lose him so I wonder just how long he'll remain with the Reds now. Anyone? I wouldn't mind if the Reds were to lock him up for years to come, but he might have his eyes on a managers position in the near future.

[CJD]

I loved Puig just as much as the next guy, but calling him our biggest bat is a misnomer.
He was a hot bat at the time of the trade (most likely the reason we traded him, to be honest), as he was batting .290/.347/.568 in the last two months, but that was after 2 months of .226/.289/.405 baseball, so his full line for the season was only .252/.305/.473

Among relative regulars, he was our 5th or 6th best bat. Trading him for an above average starting pitcher will improve us as a team, especially since his leaving allows players like Josh Van Meter and Phillip Ervin to get more playing time. Both have only played in limited quantities, but in ~90 ABs each, JVM is batting .287/.398/.483 and Ervin is batting .333/.398/.548.

The ability to give them the remaining ~200 ABs of the season will give us some great insight into whether they are legit or if this is a flash in the pan.

While not immediately improving the team, trading Roark and Scooter served similar purposes. With Bauer coming in, Roark no longer had a rotation spot and Scooter was being pushed out by JVM and Jose Peraza, who is finally starting to hit, going from a .203/.268/.307 line in the first two months to a .284/.294/.412 line (granted he still is not walking at all).

We gave up a great prospect that may end up biting us in the ass in the long run (Trammell), but I have no doubt that we're better now than we were before the trade deadline.

[fredtoast]

(08-03-2019, 01:25 PM)NKURyan Wrote: No, they realized that you don't win championships with decent players and instead shipped them out for guys that they though would become great players in a couple of years, 

Uh, no.  Go look at the Stros lineup in 2017 when they won the series and tell me how many of their key players were acquired when they were minor league prospects.  I believe it is zero.  They either drafted the prospects themselves or brought in major league veterans.

[guyofthetiger]

The only thing that matters to me is the win/loss record. Are we winning more games? I have not kept track.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Currently 3-2 since the deadline with the bullpen blowing one of the losses

[*ochocincos*]

(08-01-2019, 05:06 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Short term I think they are slightly better, but still not good enough to actually accomplish anything of value.

Long term they're just treading water. Another player who'll be gone after next season (if he isn't dealt before then), while swapping one prospect (Trammel) for another (Hannah).

If the Reds are average-to-good enough next year to convince themselves they're in it (which evidently means <10 games under .500), they won't trade Bauer and they'll walk away with nothing ("but hey, we tried!"). If the Reds aren't competitive next year they'll flip Bauer and once again we'll look another year or two down the line.

Bauer is an upgrade to Roark, plus they will have him next year.
They have good, young offensive players in Senzel, Winker, Suarez, and Ervin. Joey Votto had a bad April and May at the plate but he's been continually improving his stat lines since the Summer started.
Basically, the only gaps right now offensively are middle infield, but most teams have that.

Bottom line: They can compete next year