Player Bias

[McC]

(08-15-2019, 01:06 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I've never rooted for Ross to fail. Repeatedly I've said that I wished he'd get it together and play well.

All I've ever done is point out his stats. And I'm not alone in that.

The Ross is great crowd only put forth excuses and blame to others.

Why do you keep saying this when it is so clearly untrue?  I call BS on that.

And exaggeration is a big part of your Ross schtick because there is no Ross is great crowd. 

You have an addiction.  Admitting it is step one of the cure.

[PDub80]

(08-12-2019, 12:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If anything, it's probably safe to say Ross and Dalton don't mesh well with their skill sets. Dalton's always done better with bigger receivers in the shorter to intermediate route range. Ross isn't a big guy who will win 50-50 balls deep, and Dalton can't hit WRs consistently in stride deep down the field.

All I'm saying is let's see if Ross still as unproductive if he's used often in the short to intermediate passing game, as he really felt misused.

Dalton seems to do fine throwing to Erickson and various, similarly sized running backs, right?

I think that Marvin Lewis had a problem with smaller receivers more than Andy Dalton.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2019, 08:04 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Dalton seems to do fine throwing to Erickson and various, similarly sized running backs, right?

I think that Marvin Lewis had a problem with smaller receivers more than Andy Dalton.

Except those guys you mention were used exclusively in the slot or flats. Ross was often used deep and on the outside.

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2019, 08:04 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I think that Marvin Lewis had a problem with smaller receivers more than Andy Dalton.

We made the playoffs in '12 when our #2 WR was only 5'7" (and our #3 WR was Armon Binns)

You know, back when Dalton had all that amazing talent around him that made him look good.

[Whatever]

(08-15-2019, 01:06 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I've never rooted for Ross to fail. Repeatedly I've said that I wished he'd get it together and play well.

All I've ever done is point out his stats. And I'm not alone in that.

The Ross is great crowd only put forth excuses and blame to others.

When you drag him up in multiple unrelated threads and openly say you want other guys to play him off the roster, it's obvious you're rooting against the guy.

Untrue.  You've done everything from saying the coaches ran him on special routes to get him open in the red zone to saying he can't run the right routes without extra end zone markings.  You also ignore any positive stats for Ross and any data that helps explain some of his negative ones.


Nobody is claiming Ross is great.  Everyone agrees that he needs to continue to improve.  However, his supporters also realize that he wasn't used to his strengths last year. They also realize that there isn't anyone better sitting behind him.   They also know you don't just cut a WR with 7 TD's who's still on their rookie deal.

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 11:14 AM)Whatever Wrote: When you drag him up in multiple unrelated threads and openly say you want other guys to play him off the roster, it's obvious you're rooting against the guy.

Untrue.  You've done everything from saying the coaches ran him on special routes to get him open in the red zone to saying he can't run the right routes without extra end zone markings.  You also ignore any positive stats for Ross and any data that helps explain some of his negative ones.


Nobody is claiming Ross is great.  Everyone agrees that he needs to continue to improve.  However, his supporters also realize that he wasn't used to his strengths last year. They also realize that there isn't anyone better sitting behind him.   They also know you don't just cut a WR with 7 TD's who's still on their rookie deal.

Lasor did design routes to get Ross open in the redzone and it's a good thing he did because those 7 TDs are what give Ross value. ZT commented early on that he was intrigued by how the last coaching staff used Ross in the redzone.

We need two WRs to step up to fill out the formation with Boyd. I don't care who they are as long as two of them do.

I don't remember ever advocating cutting Ross. He does have redzone value, as Lasor proved last season. He has little trade value at this point, 5th or 6th round pick, and I'd rather have the TDs.

The 10 yard confines of the endzone are difficult to get lost in. The 100 yards of field is apparently not that difficult.

Do I hope Ross steps up this year? Yes

Would I rather see a guy who stays healthy beat him out? Yes, but I'll take Ross stepping up just the same.

Am I overly harsh on him? Yes, he's a top 10 pick who is paid top 10 pick money but who hasn't prepared or played like a top 10 pick. Seems fair to me.

 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2019, 01:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Lasor did design routes to get Ross open in the redzone and it's a good thing he did because those 7 TDs are what give Ross value. ZT commented early on that he was intrigued by how the last coaching staff used Ross in the redzone.

We need two WRs to step up to fill out the formation with Boyd. I don't care who they are as long as two of them do.

I don't remember ever advocating cutting Ross. He does have redzone value, as Lasor proved last season. He has little trade value at this point, 5th or 6th round pick, and I'd rather have the TDs.

The 10 yard confines of the endzone are difficult to get lost in. The 100 yards of field is apparently not that difficult.

Do I hope Ross steps up this year? Yes

Would I rather see a guy who stays healthy beat him out? Yes, but I'll take Ross stepping up just the same.

Am I overly harsh on him? Yes, he's a top 10 pick who is paid top 10 pick money but who hasn't prepared or played like a top 10 pick. Seems fair to me.

 

It's not Ross's fault he was taken in the Top 10. I think most would say he was somewhat overdrafted but also hardly anyone would have said he wasn't a 1st round prospect at the time of the draft. The realistic expectation was he would go more in the 15-25 pick range.
Mayock had Ross at 14.
ESPN had Ross at 25.
Gil Brandt had Ross at 10.
SB Nation had Ross at 20.
CBS Sports had Ross at 16.

Also, the difference in pay between a top 10 pick and someone in the early 20's is literally only about $6 mill across four years.
For example, Ross signed a 4-year, $17.1 mill contract. Price, the 21st pick a year later, signed a 4-year, $11.7 mill contract. The difference is $5.4 mill over the course of 4 years. $1.35 mill difference per year if averaged out.

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 01:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's not Ross's fault he was taken in the Top 10. I think most would say he was somewhat overdrafted but also hardly anyone would have said he wasn't a 1st round prospect at the time of the draft. The realistic expectation was he would go more in the 15-25 pick range.
Mayock had Ross at 14.
ESPN had Ross at 25.
Gil Brandt had Ross at 10.
SB Nation had Ross at 20.
CBS Sports had Ross at 16.

Also, the difference in pay between a top 10 pick and someone in the early 20's is literally only about $6 mill across four years.
For example, Ross signed a 4-year, $17.1 mill contract. Price, the 21st pick a year later, signed a 4-year, $11.7 mill contract. The difference is $5.4 mill over the course of 4 years. $1.35 mill difference per year if averaged out.

$6M is a lot of money. So is $17.1M.

Price needs to step up.

Ross needs to step up.

Neither have to this point.

I was just as harsh on Ogbeuhi between his 2nd and 3rd years and people defended him left and right. He never stepped up, which was predictable due to the excuses being presented that were just plain BS.

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2019, 01:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: $6M is a lot of money. So is $17.1M.

Price needs to step up.

Ross needs to step up.

Neither have to this point.

I was just as harsh on Ogbeuhi between his 2nd and 3rd years and people defended him left and right. He never stepped up, which was predictable due to the excuses being presented that were just plain BS.

I disagree. Over the course of 4 years in the NFL, $6 mill is not a lot of money.

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 01:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I disagree. Over the course of 4 years in the NFL, $6 mill is not a lot of money.

If you were paid $17.1M over 4 years would you expect to get yourself ready and be fully 100% prepared and put forth your absolute best effort for that entire time?

I think you would expect that of yourself.

I've seen UDFA be better prepared and give it 100% effort for much less.

Ross needs all the practice reps he can get, something I believe we can all agree on. Yet, he's in the nurse's tent.

 

[*ochocincos*]

(08-15-2019, 01:58 PM)BengalChris Wrote: If you were paid $17.1M over 4 years would you expect to get yourself ready and be fully 100% prepared and put forth your absolute best effort for that entire time?

I think you would expect that of yourself.

I've seen UDFA be better prepared and give it 100% effort for much less.

Ross needs all the practice reps he can get, something I believe we can all agree on. Yet, he's in the nurse's tent.

 

How does one determine someone else's best effort?
How do you know Ross isn't putting in plenty of effort but just not taking the best approach?

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2019, 01:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I was just as harsh on Ogbeuhi between his 2nd and 3rd years and people defended him left and right. He never stepped up, which was predictable due to the excuses being presented that were just plain BS.

When you shit on all the players you are bound to be right sometimes.

Funny you didn't bring up this gem from this time last year

(06-28-2018, 02:36 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I've all but given up on Boyd.

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When you shit on all the players you are bound to be right sometimes.

Funny you didn't bring up this gem from this time last year

Boyd production went down in his second year and we sure could have used him. But, if you notice, I've praised him since he stepped up. It's not arbitrary. Step up, praise. Don't step up, no praise.

And I don't shit on all the players. I've stood up for a number of them over the years and have been wrong on that side too.

I've both defended and chastised Dalton. Depending on how he does.

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2019, 03:33 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Boyd production went down in his second year and we sure could have used him. But, if you notice, I've praised him since he stepped up. It's not arbitrary. Step up, praise. Don't step up, no praise.

And I don't shit on all the players. I've stood up for a number of them over the years and have been wrong on that side too.

I've both defended and chastised Dalton. Depending on how he does.

So you are admitting that you were wrong to give up on Boyd.

Good for you.

[Luvnit2]

(08-14-2019, 01:36 PM)BengalChris Wrote: In other words, 2018 was an improvement over his 2017 stats, which were 0 catch percentage and 1 fumble in 3 games.

He's still miles from what a top 10 pick should do for the team.

 

How is it relevant in 2019 when Ross was drafted in 2017?

Ross needs to be better than those he competes against on the Bengals roster and win a job. If he wins a job, then compete in practice to be active and play in games. His contract is guaranteed in 2019 (all 1st round picks get guaranteed contracts now) so he is a 10 million dollar dead cap hit. Point is money is not in the equation versus free agents or late round picks, if he is cut, we still pay him.

Yes, we all want a 1st round pick to produce, but in the end, we want someone to step up whether it be like a TJ. Hous. years ago or Ross this year. If Ross gets cut, we may get a better receiver, we may not, but we don't save any money.

[Luvnit2]

(08-15-2019, 03:33 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Boyd production went down in his second year and we sure could have used him. But, if you notice, I've praised him since he stepped up. It's not arbitrary. Step up, praise. Don't step up, no praise.

And I don't shit on all the players. I've stood up for a number of them over the years and have been wrong on that side too.

I've both defended and chastised Dalton. Depending on how he does.

We all say wrong things, nice and refeshing you own up to it

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 03:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are admitting that you were wrong to give up on Boyd.

Good for you.

I don't have to be right about everything. I'm right more often than not so I have room to be wrong about something.

If Ross wakes up I won't be wrong about his past production. It is what it is and I've never said we should give up on Ross. All the false reasons for his bad production are what I rail against though. It's just blabbering BS. Just like when people said Ogbuehi was being misused at RT in his second year and LT is his natural position (in other words, it's the coaches fault), a rumor he started himself. But, when you look back at his college days he played more RT than LT. I called BS at that time, but hoped that he'd develop. He didn't.

I don't think Ross has been misused at all. I believe he's been used at areas he's shown success at in practice and the team still tried to get him targets between the 20s even though he wasn't coming through for them. He has trouble in open space and is much better when the field is short and confined. I believe the stats prove that.

All this says is that he needs to work on his routes and hands and be prepared better. That shouldn't be too much to ask for, should it?

 

[BengalChris]

(08-15-2019, 05:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: How is it relevant in 2019 when Ross was drafted in 2017?

Ross needs to be better than those he competes against on the Bengals roster and win a job. If he wins a job, then compete in practice to be active and play in games. His contract is guaranteed in 2019 (all 1st round picks get guaranteed contracts now) so he is a 10 million dollar dead cap hit. Point is money is not in the equation versus free agents or late round picks, if he is cut, we still pay him.

Yes, we all want a 1st round pick to produce, but in the end, we want someone to step up whether it be like a TJ. Hous. years ago or Ross this year. If Ross gets cut, we may get a better receiver, we may not, but we don't save any money.

Who's talking about cutting Ross? I'm not.

As for dead money, I believe it matters to Mike Brown. I also believe draft status matters to him as well. Last season we kept Walton, who was clearly not as good as guys we cut, yet we kept him anyways. The team spent a 4th round pick on him.

 

[*bfine32*]

(08-15-2019, 05:56 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We all say wrong things (except bfine), nice and refeshing you own up to it

FIFY

As to the OP: The difference is a plain as black and white. 

[fredtoast]

(08-15-2019, 06:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't have to be right about everything. I'm right more often than not so I have room to be wrong about something.

I just think it is funny when guys like you try to bring up previous times you had been right to show how smart you are.  Usually happens with draft picks.  

For some reason you only mention the times you were correct and ignore the times you were wrong.

Like last year when you were saying the run game would suck because of our O-line, yet Mixon led the AFC in rushing and we had the highest average per carry in over 20 years.

I don't think you are right near as much as you think you are.  You just choose to forget how wrong you have been about some things.