The kicking battle should be over...

[Big Boss]

I like Bullock. The fact that he looks like he just rolled off the couch is kind of endearing to me.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-23-2019, 11:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't believe the Browns ever traded away a Pro Bowl level player.  I know for sure they never traded Joe Thomas.

The Browns mainly acquired more draft picks by trading their original first round picks.  Unfortunately the Bengals do not suck enough to get picks in the top 3 of the draft every year that bring lots of picks back in trade.

And finally, since I don't want to go 20 years without even making the playoffs I don't think I'll ask the Brown anything about re-building.

The Browns also dumped several 1st Round or high picks for pennies on the dollar. Gilbert comes to mind.

They somehow traded Richardson to the Colts for a 1st.

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-23-2019, 11:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't believe the Browns ever traded away a Pro Bowl level player.  I know for sure they never traded Joe Thomas.

The Browns mainly acquired more draft picks by trading their original first round picks.  Unfortunately the Bengals do not suck enough to get picks in the top 3 of the draft every year that bring lots of picks back in trade.

And finally, since I don't want to go 20 years without even making the playoffs I don't think I'll ask the Brown anything about re-building.

Ok, I should have said "traded or released".  They did release a lot of their higher-salaried players to create cap space to allow for FA signings and to cover the contracts of many young draft picks they compiled.  


And as I thought I stated clearly, It is not was "not at all what I want".  You had just tried to make a snide comment to someone about change only being for the sake of change (in reference to someone wanting to rid all of their talent and start over) and not being logical.  I countered by using the Browns example and said that it isn't illogical.  The Browns purged almost all their expensive talent to make for massive cap space and, essentially, a clean sheet of paper.  The article below provides an interesting recap:  






With credits to clutchpoint.com:


DePodesta decided to gut the roster entirely, and players who played 35% of Cleveland’s 2015 snaps were released or traded.


The plan was simple; accept being the worst team in league over the next two seasons in order to gain valuable high draft picks, while playing young players to try and find hidden gems.
Certain risks were taken during that 2016 season, such as signing Robert Griffin III to see if he could recapture the magic of his rookie campaign. That didn’t end up happening, and the Browns won only one game during that painful season. However, their suffering earned them the first overall pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, which they used to select pass rusher Myles Garrett, who currently leads in the league in sacks and is a Defensive Player of the Year candidate.



Aside from Garrett, Brown made some fantastic draft picks, and some not-so-great ones. However, the draft was only part of the process.
The previous regime made some pretty brutal mistakes in free agency, handing out big contracts to the likes of Karlos Dansby, Donte Whitner, and Dwayne Bowe, to name a few. Brown and DePodesta aimed to treat free agency differently; they would take advantage of a loophole in the CBA that allowed a certain percentage of unused cap space to “rollover” to the next year, increasing the salary cap for that year.

As long as a team met the cap floor (or the minimum spending requirement) for a given timeframe, they could keep adding onto their future cap space. Once the Browns were ready to compete, they would have plenty of cash to spend on impact players.
Needing to meet this spending floor, Cleveland splurged in the 2017 offseason, signing center J.C. Tretter, guard Kevin Zeitler, and wide receiver Kenny Britt for a total of $109.3 million with the contract lengths being three years, five years, and four years, respectively. The Browns also received a 2018 second-round pick (which would eventually become running back Nick Chubb) in exchange for taking on Brock Osweiler’s massive deal from the Houston Texans.


Although Osweiler was cut before the season and Britt released about midway-through, Tretter and Zeitler are still key members of Cleveland’s offensive line, and most importantly, the spending floor for the next few years.
While the front office obviously couldn’t explicitly state when they intended to field a competitive roster, that year was likely 2019 based on the accumulation of draft picks; the team owned five of the first 64 selections in the 2018 Draft.

However, as the Browns were winding down their 0-16 2017 season, Sashi Brown was fired, replaced by the architect of the Kansas City Chiefs, John Dorsey. DePodesta remained on staff, and the analytical approach was combined with proven talent evaluators.
A new era



Predictably, Cleveland’s 2018 offseason was filled with plenty of splashy moves, including trading for WR Jarvis Landry and QB Tyrod Taylor. By the season opener, the roster included just 19 players from last years’ team, and that number has fallen to 17 since.
At the beginning of free agency, Cleveland had over $100 million in cap space, with over half of that rolled over from previous seasons. Dorsey and co. decided to spend a large portion of that, including making Jarvis Landry one of the highest paid receivers in the game.
After the additions of Carlos Hyde, Darren Fells, Chris Hubbard, Chris Smith, E.J. Gaines, Terrance Mitchell, and T.J. Carrie, the Browns had added a maximum of $121.5 million in salary over the next five years. Not all of those players have been performing up to their pay, so at first glance, the contract situation doesn’t seem all that great. However, a closer look reveals just the opposite.
Currently, the Browns still have over $59 million in cap space, which is no small number. Additionally, the team has over $23 million in dead money, which can be considered a good thing, as Cleveland didn’t need that space this season, and can regain that in the future.
Here comes the money

Many players have expiring contracts either this year or next year, and many of the more expensive deals have easy outs and can be released for a fraction of their actual cap hits. Here is a short overview of a few:
QB Tyrod Taylor – $10M in 2018, UFA in 2019
WR Jarvis Landry – $3.5M in 2018, owed $52.3M through 2022, can be cut after the 2019 season for only $4.5M
OG Kevin Zeitler – $10M in 2018, owed $32M through 2021, can be cut after the 2019 season for only $4.8M
LB Jamie Collins Sr. – $10.7M in 2018, owed $22M through 2020, can be cut after the 2018 season for only $2.5M
These are just a few examples of the kind of contracts DePodesta has been able to negotiate. Many are pricey (for players like Collins, Hubbard, and Carrie, probably more than they are worth), but that is to convince the player to sign with the Browns. After all, Cleveland has no choice but to overpay for free agents, as they aren’t attracting players with the city weather or the team’s success.
The risk

However, much of the money owed to players is not guaranteed, and the team is able to exit the deal halfway through with a minimal penalty. This allows the Browns to get away from players who are under-performing. The downside to this strategy is that if a player doesn’t live up to his contract, then the money used to originally sign him is unable to be rolled over to the next league year, reducing Cleveland’s future additional cap space. This is a necessary evil.
The Browns strategy is interesting, but imperfect. The team has some major problems. The offensive tackles have been abhorrent and are an albatross on the offense as a whole. Outside of Jarvis Landry, the Browns are running out a group of inexperienced and inconsistent rookie receivers, along with former Ravens bust Breshad Perriman.
The defense has some stars, but the depth, especially at defensive line and linebacker, is virtually nonexistent. The unit as a whole tires out quickly because the offense is unable to sustain drives, and the Browns have played in four overtimes, which equates to nearly three extra quarters.
Defensive tackle Larry Ogunjobi has played nearly 100 more snaps than than any other DT. Myles Garrett rarely gets a play off. The impact players aren’t able to stay fresh and their effectiveness drops off late because of it.
Their dysfunctional coaching staff was seemingly incapable of making an in-game adjustment or utilizing talent correctly. Running back Duke Johnson, one of the league’s most dynamic offensive weapons, received four touches against Pittsburgh, and two of those came on the first two plays of the game. Johnson signed a contract extension in the offseason, and both Jackson and Haley have adamantly stated that Johnson needs more touches. He has a total of 38 on the season, and now both Jackson and Haley are gone.
The positive

Fortunately, there is more good than bad. Garrett was a home run, and other 2017 picks Ogunjobi, David Njoku, and Jabrill Peppers are making large impacts. Baker Mayfield has looked the part of a franchise QB, and his rookie contract, which he will play under through 2021, provides the team flexibility to fill holes elsewhere.
The talent level isn’t quite there yet, but it’s close. The problem right now is coaching, and that needs to be addressed before next season. With another strong draft and free agency period, the Browns could finally be ready to compete for the division next season, thanks in large part to moneyball.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2019, 08:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ok, I should have said "traded or released".  They did release a lot of their higher-salaried players to create cap space to allow for FA signings and to cover the contracts of many young draft picks they compiled.  


And as I thought I stated clearly, It is not was "not at all what I want".  You had just tried to make a snide comment to someone about change only being for the sake of change (in reference to someone wanting to rid all of their talent and start over) and not being logical.  I countered by using the Browns example and said that it isn't illogical.  The Browns purged almost all their expensive talent to make for massive cap space and, essentially, a clean sheet of paper.  The article below provides an interesting recap:  






With credits to clutchpoint.com:


DePodesta decided to gut the roster entirely, and players who played 35% of Cleveland’s 2015 snaps were released or traded.


The plan was simple; accept being the worst team in league over the next two seasons in order to gain valuable high draft picks, while playing young players to try and find hidden gems.
Certain risks were taken during that 2016 season, such as signing Robert Griffin III to see if he could recapture the magic of his rookie campaign. That didn’t end up happening, and the Browns won only one game during that painful season. However, their suffering earned them the first overall pick in the 2017 NFL Draft, which they used to select pass rusher Myles Garrett, who currently leads in the league in sacks and is a Defensive Player of the Year candidate.



Aside from Garrett, Brown made some fantastic draft picks, and some not-so-great ones. However, the draft was only part of the process.
The previous regime made some pretty brutal mistakes in free agency, handing out big contracts to the likes of Karlos Dansby, Donte Whitner, and Dwayne Bowe, to name a few. Brown and DePodesta aimed to treat free agency differently; they would take advantage of a loophole in the CBA that allowed a certain percentage of unused cap space to “rollover” to the next year, increasing the salary cap for that year.

As long as a team met the cap floor (or the minimum spending requirement) for a given timeframe, they could keep adding onto their future cap space. Once the Browns were ready to compete, they would have plenty of cash to spend on impact players.
Needing to meet this spending floor, Cleveland splurged in the 2017 offseason, signing center J.C. Tretter, guard Kevin Zeitler, and wide receiver Kenny Britt for a total of $109.3 million with the contract lengths being three years, five years, and four years, respectively. The Browns also received a 2018 second-round pick (which would eventually become running back Nick Chubb) in exchange for taking on Brock Osweiler’s massive deal from the Houston Texans.


Although Osweiler was cut before the season and Britt released about midway-through, Tretter and Zeitler are still key members of Cleveland’s offensive line, and most importantly, the spending floor for the next few years.
While the front office obviously couldn’t explicitly state when they intended to field a competitive roster, that year was likely 2019 based on the accumulation of draft picks; the team owned five of the first 64 selections in the 2018 Draft.

However, as the Browns were winding down their 0-16 2017 season, Sashi Brown was fired, replaced by the architect of the Kansas City Chiefs, John Dorsey. DePodesta remained on staff, and the analytical approach was combined with proven talent evaluators.
A new era



Predictably, Cleveland’s 2018 offseason was filled with plenty of splashy moves, including trading for WR Jarvis Landry and QB Tyrod Taylor. By the season opener, the roster included just 19 players from last years’ team, and that number has fallen to 17 since.
At the beginning of free agency, Cleveland had over $100 million in cap space, with over half of that rolled over from previous seasons. Dorsey and co. decided to spend a large portion of that, including making Jarvis Landry one of the highest paid receivers in the game.
After the additions of Carlos Hyde, Darren Fells, Chris Hubbard, Chris Smith, E.J. Gaines, Terrance Mitchell, and T.J. Carrie, the Browns had added a maximum of $121.5 million in salary over the next five years. Not all of those players have been performing up to their pay, so at first glance, the contract situation doesn’t seem all that great. However, a closer look reveals just the opposite.
Currently, the Browns still have over $59 million in cap space, which is no small number. Additionally, the team has over $23 million in dead money, which can be considered a good thing, as Cleveland didn’t need that space this season, and can regain that in the future.
Here comes the money

Many players have expiring contracts either this year or next year, and many of the more expensive deals have easy outs and can be released for a fraction of their actual cap hits. Here is a short overview of a few:
QB Tyrod Taylor – $10M in 2018, UFA in 2019
WR Jarvis Landry – $3.5M in 2018, owed $52.3M through 2022, can be cut after the 2019 season for only $4.5M
OG Kevin Zeitler – $10M in 2018, owed $32M through 2021, can be cut after the 2019 season for only $4.8M
LB Jamie Collins Sr. – $10.7M in 2018, owed $22M through 2020, can be cut after the 2018 season for only $2.5M
These are just a few examples of the kind of contracts DePodesta has been able to negotiate. Many are pricey (for players like Collins, Hubbard, and Carrie, probably more than they are worth), but that is to convince the player to sign with the Browns. After all, Cleveland has no choice but to overpay for free agents, as they aren’t attracting players with the city weather or the team’s success.
The risk

However, much of the money owed to players is not guaranteed, and the team is able to exit the deal halfway through with a minimal penalty. This allows the Browns to get away from players who are under-performing. The downside to this strategy is that if a player doesn’t live up to his contract, then the money used to originally sign him is unable to be rolled over to the next league year, reducing Cleveland’s future additional cap space. This is a necessary evil.
The Browns strategy is interesting, but imperfect. The team has some major problems. The offensive tackles have been abhorrent and are an albatross on the offense as a whole. Outside of Jarvis Landry, the Browns are running out a group of inexperienced and inconsistent rookie receivers, along with former Ravens bust Breshad Perriman.
The defense has some stars, but the depth, especially at defensive line and linebacker, is virtually nonexistent. The unit as a whole tires out quickly because the offense is unable to sustain drives, and the Browns have played in four overtimes, which equates to nearly three extra quarters.
Defensive tackle Larry Ogunjobi has played nearly 100 more snaps than than any other DT. Myles Garrett rarely gets a play off. The impact players aren’t able to stay fresh and their effectiveness drops off late because of it.
Their dysfunctional coaching staff was seemingly incapable of making an in-game adjustment or utilizing talent correctly. Running back Duke Johnson, one of the league’s most dynamic offensive weapons, received four touches against Pittsburgh, and two of those came on the first two plays of the game. Johnson signed a contract extension in the offseason, and both Jackson and Haley have adamantly stated that Johnson needs more touches. He has a total of 38 on the season, and now both Jackson and Haley are gone.
The positive

Fortunately, there is more good than bad. Garrett was a home run, and other 2017 picks Ogunjobi, David Njoku, and Jabrill Peppers are making large impacts. Baker Mayfield has looked the part of a franchise QB, and his rookie contract, which he will play under through 2021, provides the team flexibility to fill holes elsewhere.
The talent level isn’t quite there yet, but it’s close. The problem right now is coaching, and that needs to be addressed before next season. With another strong draft and free agency period, the Browns could finally be ready to compete for the division next season, thanks in large part to moneyball.

Here is the big point you are missing.  The Browns dumped "high paid players" that were bad.  That move is a no brainer.  But people here are talking about dumping guys who have been to multiple Pro Bowls and are still playing at a high level.

Ddi you notice the part of this story where they pointed out that many of the expensive players they have signed in free agency are not earning their money?  And that the Brown had to eat $23 million in dead cap space?  They can get out of the contracts early and spend on new expensive free agents, but what happens when these new free agents also fail to earn their money just like some of the first batch of expensive signings.

Creating cap space is not the same as creating good players.  Free agents are gambles.  The ONLY reason you should dump high salary players is if they are not performing.  It is ridiculous to cut players who are performing just so you can roll the dice on a free agent replacements.  It is like taking your savings out of a high yield mutual fund and investing in lottery tickets.

[BonnieBengal]

(08-22-2019, 03:31 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Here is some food for thought for those who wished Elliot should have stayed on team (I wanted Gonzalez by the way   ):

Here are last two years FG% splits. Elliott has been fine. But the better numbers are pretty clear cut.

Elliott/Bullock
30-39: 77.7/87.5
40-49: 90.4/90.9
50+: 63.6/50.0
OVERALL FGs: 83.9/86.0
PAT: 93.5/94.6 https://t.co/1PzPsqhDYr

— Paul Dehner Jr. (@pauldehnerjr) August 22, 2019

I do not understand the hate toward Bullock.

This is Bullock's sixth year and Elliott's third year, so Bullock has more stats to work with.  Bullock has also played for 5 teams in those 6 years.  Elliott had a higher field goal percentage than Bullock last year. I believe he will continue to improve.   I said from the start Elliott has a higher ceiling and we will regret letting him go.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2019, 09:44 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote:  Elliott had a higher field goal percentage than Bullock last year. 

No he didn't.

Bullock 86.0
Elliott   83.9

Bullock also had a higher XP percentage.

And from 50 plus they were identical (2-5)

[*Awful Llama*]

(08-23-2019, 11:43 AM)Big Boss Wrote: I like Bullock.  The fact that he looks like he just rolled off the couch is kind of endearing to me.

Yeah, he's a slob, but he's our slob, dammit.  And, he's a solid kicker.  Nothing fancy, but meat-and-potatoes successful.  

Also, if we're being honest, he's thinner than a lot of the fans (including this one) at PBS.  So, people in glass houses, etc.

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-24-2019, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the big point you are missing.  The Browns dumped "high paid players" that were bad.  That move is a no brainer.  But people here are talking about dumping guys who have been to multiple Pro Bowls and are still playing at a high level.

Ddi you notice the part of this story where they pointed out that many of the expensive players they have signed in free agency are not earning their money?  And that the Brown had to eat $23 million in dead cap space?  They can get out of the contracts early and spend on new expensive free agents, but what happens when these new free agents also fail to earn their money just like some of the first batch of expensive signings.

Creating cap space is not the same as creating good players.  Free agents are gambles.  The ONLY reason you should dump high salary players is if they are not performing.  It is ridiculous to cut players who are performing just so you can roll the dice on a free agent replacements.  It is like taking your savings out of a high yield mutual fund and investing in lottery tickets.

The point you KEEP missing is that I did not say I agree with it or how it should be handled here, but that what they did wasn't completely illogical.  That's it.  And, actually, Tramon Williams was a Pro Bowl DB.  And so was Joe Haden.  And so was Donte Whitner.  

[BonnieBengal]

(08-24-2019, 10:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No he didn't.

Bullock 86.0
Elliott   83.9

Bullock also had a higher XP percentage.

And from 50 plus they were identical (2-5)

According to NFL.com, Bullocks overall FG percentage last year was 82.6 and Elliot's was 83.9  http://www.nfl.com/player/randybullock/2533444/careerstats

[Luvnit2]

(08-24-2019, 03:58 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: According to NFL.com, Bullocks overall FG percentage last year was 82.6 and Elliot's was 83.9  http://www.nfl.com/player/randybullock/2533444/careerstats

I think those posted earlier were career stats and not just 1 year. Looks like Bonnie is correct.

I wanted Elliott over Bulloch as well. But, I think it is a wash as of now, only upside is Elliott is younger and may get better.

I will say Bulloch drilled the long FG Thursday, would have been good from 60+

Now, would ZAC trust him to try it a real game and will he make it? Stay tuned, but he won the job, no way he should be cut.

Elliott lost the job because he missed a game winner in week 4 of preseason so it was on him.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-24-2019, 09:44 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: This is Bullock's sixth year and Elliott's third year, so Bullock has more stats to work with.  Bullock has also played for 5 teams in those 6 years.  Elliott had a higher field goal percentage than Bullock last year. I believe he will continue to improve.   I said from the start Elliott has a higher ceiling and we will regret letting him go.

First Bullock had higher FG and PAT kast year.
2nd, people tend to forget the horrible preseason Elliott had as a rookie, he did not perform well at all in games and practice, Bullock was solid and straight up beat him for the job.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-24-2019, 11:30 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: First Bullock had higher FG and PAT kast year.
2nd, people tend to forget the horrible preseason Elliott had as a rookie, he did not perform well at all in games and practice, Bullock was solid and straight up beat him for the job.

Elliott had a higher percentage on FGs (83.9 to 82.6) on more attempts (31 to 23), had a long of 56 to Bullocks 51, had 12 more touchbacks on only 3 more KOs and had a better starting field position 22.5 to 22.7. They both missed 2 XPs. 

Elliot was better across the board. 

[BonnieBengal]

(08-24-2019, 11:30 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: First Bullock had higher FG and PAT kast year.
2nd, people tend to forget the horrible preseason Elliott had as a rookie, he did not perform well at all in games and practice, Bullock was solid and straight up beat him for the job.

You're wrong about the FG percentage.  I already posted a link which shows Bullock's FG percentage last year was 82.6.  Elliot's was 83.9.   Yes, Elliott had a learning curve as a rookie.  The Eagles took a chance on him and are going to reap the benefits.  

[Luvnit2]

We know Elliott can hit a 60 yard field goal to win a game. I am not sure Bulloch has had the opportunity he can hit a game winning 50 or 60 yarder. I would love to see Randy get a hot, I think he can do it, but until he does the shadow of doubt exists.

But as I said, I think it is a wash right now and I was an Elliott fan.

[XenoMorph]

Yep its Randys job again

very apparent after last nights wiff wiff wiff

[Second Down]

Fat Randy is the man! I hope he sticks around a long time.

[Bengalitis]

I would keep both kickers. Long range - Viscaino Short range - Phat Randy

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(08-24-2019, 08:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The plan was simple; accept being the worst team in league over the next two seasons in order to gain valuable high draft picks, while playing young players to try and find hidden gems.

The Browns of course had an advantage of being further along the plan by already sucking. 

[fredtoast]

(08-16-2019, 09:19 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: Bullock should not win the kicking job this year..Truth is he's an average kicker at best,and it's time for us to have a true weapon in the kicking game...

Some one has gone into hiding since starting this thread.

[*bfine32*]

As to the Elliott tangent:

The think I remember most was folks on the Message Board stating how stupid the Bengals were to take Elliott over Zane Gonzalez