Andrew Luck retires... Chance for the Bengals to trade a promising QB?

[XenoMorph]

(08-29-2019, 02:36 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: never mentioned the word tanking.  However this team is going to tank whether its innocent or tried.  Alot of u bengal fans need reality checks....  this roster isnt doing anything this year.  we will probably have another top 10 pick next year but be too far out to land one of the top franchise qbs in the draft.  then what are we left with...another dalton later on in the draft...yippie. smh.  IM not voting for tanking, as a fan with a grip on reality im voting for change.

I mean if you believe that why do you bother even coming around? need some company for your misery?

[SadFaceBengal15]

(08-29-2019, 02:44 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I mean if you believe that why do you bother even coming around? need some company for your misery?

so unless im preaching gum drop rainbows and fairy tale skies i shouldnt be in here.... lol thank you for proving my point.  

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2019, 02:19 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: trade dalton for picks and see what we have in finley...draft tua or herbert next season

(08-29-2019, 02:36 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: never mentioned the word tanking.

we will probably have another top 10 pick next year but be too far out to land one of the top franchise qbs in the draft. 

I can't follow your logic.

You claim we will be too good to draft a QB like Herbert or Tua unless we trade Dalton.

How is that not "tanking"?

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2019, 02:56 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: so unless im preaching gum drop rainbows and fairy tale skies i shouldnt be in here.... lol thank you for proving my point.  

Not sue what point you think this "proves", but no one said you can't be negative.  Most of us just don't like the concept of tanking and intentionally getting worse.

[NKURyan]

I find the argument that the Bengals will never be able to draft a quality QB without drafting in the top 5 pretty odd considering that a QB always seems to end up sliding in recent years.

Dwayne Haskins went 15th in 2019.
Lamar Jackson went 32nd in 2018.
Deshaun Watson went 12th in 2017.

Both Haskins and Jackson were *definitely* on the list of players some fans wanted the Bengals to take several picks before they actually went, so let's skip the whole "well they weren't that good to begin with" argument. There's a trend the last few years of QBs sliding, and even if the Bengals end up being better than people think the cost to move up to the 10-15 range isn't near as expensive as the cost to move into the top 3 that some seem to think they'd have to pay. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if one of Tua/Herbert/Fromme end up slipping next year, especially since you know a lot of teams likely to be in the top 10 (teams the Jets, Bills, Broncos, Giants, Redskins, Cardinals) almost assuredly aren't drafting a QB.

[*Nately120*]

(08-29-2019, 06:34 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I find the argument that the Bengals will never be able to draft a quality QB without drafting in the top 5 pretty odd considering that a QB always seems to end up sliding in recent years.

Dwayne Haskins went 15th in 2019.
Lamar Jackson went 32nd in 2018.
Deshaun Watson went 12th in 2017.

...and we took Ross instead of Mahommes. 

[NKURyan]

(08-29-2019, 07:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: ...and we took Ross instead of Mahommes. 

Honest question - do you think Mahommes would be the same player here in Cincinnati as he is in Kansas City?

I don't, especially under that offensive coaching staff.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-29-2019, 07:48 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Honest question - do you think Mahommes would be the same player here in Cincinnati as he is in Kansas City?

I don't, especially under that offensive coaching staff.

You guys love to bring up Dalton’s “MVP season” but you don’t think Mahomes could win one here?

[J24]

(08-30-2019, 12:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys love to bring up Dalton’s “MVP season” but you don’t think Mahomes could win one here?

Mahomes would be good anywhere. With that being said with the Offensive line issues this team has had and combine that with the injury issues at the skill positions I don't think Mahomes as good here.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-30-2019, 03:06 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Mahomes would be good anywhere. With that being said with the Offensive line issues this team has had and combine that with the injury issues at the skill positions I don't think Mahomes as good here.

Yeah, he’d probably only throw like 40 TD’s instead of 50...

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2019, 07:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: ...and we took Ross instead of Mahommes. 

So?

It is simple to pick great players with the benefit of hindsight.  I don't rememeber a single person here screaming for us to draft Mahomes, but now that he has turned out great everyone acts like they wanted him.

 

[NKURyan]

(08-30-2019, 12:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys love to bring up Dalton’s “MVP season” but you don’t think Mahomes could win one here?

Dalton's MVP season came under a very good offensive coordinator in Hue Jackson. If the Bengals had drafted Mahomes he would've played in a Ken Zampese offense. That's a HUGE difference.

I think Mahomes is obviously a very good player. I also think landing with Andy Reid was probably the perfect situation for the guy.

[*Nately120*]

(08-30-2019, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So?

It is simple to pick great players with the benefit of hindsight.  I don't rememeber a single person here screaming for us to draft Mahomes, but now that he has turned out great everyone acts like they wanted him.

Andy Reid took the guy top 10 when he had a solid QB in place, so maybe we can borrow his crystal ball next time.  

[*Nately120*]

(08-29-2019, 07:48 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Honest question - do you think Mahommes would be the same player here in Cincinnati as he is in Kansas City?

I don't, especially under that offensive coaching staff.

I think Mahommes could be very good here.  I dont think Ross would be tearing it up elsewhere, though.

But no QB can be an MVP here in the Mike Brown era except Dalton.  Honestly, I'm only playing the QB gripe game for the hell of it.  Dalton is fine and he's probably going to take the fall for our crap organization and possibly coaching here eventually.

[NKURyan]

(08-30-2019, 12:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think Mahommes could be very good here.  I dont think Ross would be tearing it up elsewhere, though.

But no QB can be an MVP here in the Mike Brown era except Dalton.  Honestly, I'm only playing the QB gripe game for the hell of it.  Dalton is fine and he's probably going to take the fall for our crap organization and possibly coaching here eventually.

Palmer was an MVP candidate in 2005.

I think Mahomes could've been good here... in the right situation. I don't think anyone (including Dalton) was going to find much success in the awful offense of Zampese and Lazor. Players need to be set up to succeed, especially young ones, and it just seemed like a pretty bad situation.

If the Bengals are going to draft a young QB - and it is coming - now is the time to do it. You've just hired a young head coach who should be here awhile (not a guarantee with Marvin at that point), he's an offensive mind (not the case then), and what limited glances we've seen suggests ZT's offensive approach could be interesting. As much as I'll stick by my guns that the Bengals were right NOT to draft a QB these last few years (bigger fish to fry... or at least attempt to fry), it's coming, and with this staff I think I'll feel pretty good about it when it does.

[*Nately120*]

(08-30-2019, 12:13 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Palmer was an MVP candidate in 2005. I think Mahomes could've been good here... in the right situation. I don't think anyone (including Dalton) was going to find much success in the awful offense of Zampese and Lazor. Players need to be set up to succeed, especially young ones, and it just seemed like a pretty bad situation. If the Bengals are going to draft a young QB - and it is coming - now is the time to do it. You've just hired a young head coach who should be here awhile (not a guarantee with Marvin at that point), he's an offensive mind (not the case then), and what limited glances we've seen suggests ZT's offensive approach could be interesting. As much as I'll stick by my guns that the Bengals were right NOT to draft a QB these last few years (bigger fish to fry... or at least attempt to fry), it's coming, and with this staff I think I'll feel pretty good about it when it does.

I know what you mean, and like I said this is just off-season banter.  If my past history is any indicator, I'm likely going to side with Dalton over "THE BENGALS" in the event that he becomes the popular target for "why we could never get it done."  I'm just a little ho-hum on the notion that we can't use a high pick on a starting QB until our QB room is the most glaring weakness we have.  At what point will that happen?  Dalton could retire today and we're still better at QB than we are at LB or o-line, so what's it going to take?

What bums me out is this notion that the Chiefs can draft Mahommes when they have Alex Smith and get an mvp season out of Mahommes right off the bat while trading Smith off for some sweet draft capital and that is something that we could NEVER EVER EVER do.  It just gets depressing at times when you think of the "shoulda been" victories we have.  We shoulda won it all in 2005 and 2015 and we shoulda had an MVP in Dalton while we unloaded AJ McCarron for a high pick on a dumbass Browns team and sunk them at the same time.  But we didn't.

And I'll admit I wasn't sold on Mahommes over Ross until Mike Brown took Ross and Andy Reid took Mahommes.  That's a rough bit of evidence to overlook there, but I guess time will tell and even if Mahommes is 10,000 times the player Ross is I apparently couldn't see the future so I never saw it coming.

[NKURyan]

(08-30-2019, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I know what you mean, and like I said this is just off-season banter.  If my past history is any indicator, I'm likely going to side with Dalton over "THE BENGALS" in the event that he becomes the popular target for "why we could never get it done."  I'm just a little ho-hum on the notion that we can't use a high pick on a starting QB until our QB room is the most glaring weakness we have.  At what point will that happen?  Dalton could retire today and we're still better at QB than we are at LB or o-line, so what's it going to take?

What bums me out is this notion that the Chiefs can draft Mahommes when they have Alex Smith and get an mvp season out of Mahommes right off the bat while trading Smith off for some sweet draft capital and that is something that we could NEVER EVER EVER do.  It just gets depressing at times when you think of the "shoulda been" victories we have.  We shoulda won it all in 2005 and 2015 and we shoulda had an MVP in Dalton while we unloaded AJ McCarron for a high pick on a dumbass Browns team and sunk them at the same time.  But we didn't.

And I'll admit I wasn't sold on Mahommes over Ross until Mike Brown took Ross and Andy Reid took Mahommes.  That's a rough bit of evidence to overlook there, but I guess time will tell and even if Mahommes is 10,000 times the player Ross is I apparently couldn't see the future so I never saw it coming.

I hear ya. I'm not dead set on spending a high pick on a QB, either, all I'm saying is that I'd prefer to wait until we have the supporting cast and infrastructure needed to prime him for success, and I don't think that's been the case for a few years. I don't want the Bengals to fall into the trap that so many teams seem to fall into where you draft a QB, put him in a bad offense with bad coaching and a bad offensive line, watch him struggle for a few years, and then repeat the whole process. We've certainly been down that route before as Bengals fans. I value stability at the QB position, especially when you're getting good play (which Andy does) at a very good price (which Andy has... for now). I certainly don't think that having Andy prohibits you from having success as some others do (not you).

As for the "should haves"... sadly that just comes along with Cincinnati sports in general. The Reds should have made the World Series in 2012 if Cueto doesn't get hurt, the Bearcats should have been able to predict a 20+ point lead to beat Nevada in the NCAA tournament a couple of years ago, the Bengals should have not handed the Steelers 30 free yards in 2015, and that list goes on and on. As a fan of all these teams noone gets more tired of the should haves than me... I guess I've gotta believe at some point it'll pay off and make it all worth it.

[*Nately120*]

(08-30-2019, 12:41 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I hear ya. I'm not dead set on spending a high pick on a QB, either, all I'm saying is that I'd prefer to wait until we have the supporting cast and infrastructure needed to prime him for success, and I don't think that's been the case for a few years. I don't want the Bengals to fall into the trap that so many teams seem to fall into where you draft a QB, put him in a bad offense with bad coaching and a bad offensive line, watch him struggle for a few years, and then repeat the whole process. We've certainly been down that route before as Bengals fans. I value stability at the QB position, especially when you're getting good play (which Andy does) at a very good price (which Andy has... for now). I certainly don't think that having Andy prohibits you from having success as some others do (not you).

As for the "should haves"... sadly that just comes along with Cincinnati sports in general. The Reds should have made the World Series in 2012 if Cueto doesn't get hurt, the Bearcats should have been able to predict a 20+ point lead to beat Nevada in the NCAA tournament a couple of years ago, the Bengals should have not handed the Steelers 30 free yards in 2015, and that list goes on and on. As a fan of all these teams noone gets more tired of the should haves than me... I guess I've gotta believe at some point it'll pay off and make it all worth it.

Stability at QB is something that is certainly important, but lordy between Palmer and Dalton being two QBs who have flirted with MVP play here and there, and would be seen as favorable to any franchise missing a SB-winner we have had 15 years of solid QB play and zero playoff wins to show for it.  We hoped it was on Palmer until Marvin moved on after losing another 5 wild card games and now we hope it was Marvin that caused us to disappoint despite our QB stability.

Before we finally moved on from Marvin one could argue the Bengals were as much proof that stability doesn't equate winning as the Browns were proof constant fluctruation doesn't equate winning (well, they were really bad so it's not exact).

And again, we can cherry pick but Bears fans won't forget passing on Aaron Rodgers because they had Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton, the Steelers passed on Marino because they had Terry Bradshaw and Malone or Cliff Stoudt or something, the Browns didn't NEED to take Ben, and so on.  There is a chance the Bengals passing on Mahommes because they had Dalton and McCarron (a guy Mike Brown valued at a 1st round pick or so) goes down as another draft boner.  

And yea, hindsight is 20/20 but lordy, looking at what the Chiefs did these past few years or seeing the Patriots continually dump their backups for high picks and just saying "Well, the Bengals can't do that" is both very understandable and annoying. 


And the "should haves" just make me think of how the Browns and Bengals apparently play the Steelers "so close and so tough" and yet the Steelers still win like 90% of the time. Lordy, how close can it truly be if the odds are so skewed? ANyways, that's another topic.

[*bfine32*]

I saw Dolegala thread the needle like I've seldom seen in the NFL on the past to Malone in the endzone. The ball went through 3 sets of hands; unfortunately, one set belonged to Malone.

If Dolegala gets a shot I think he will be prone to INT early in his career. He one of those that trusts his arm too much

[NKURyan]

(08-30-2019, 12:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: And again, we can cherry pick but Bears fans won't forget passing on Aaron Rodgers because they had Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton, the Steelers passed on Marino because they had Terry Bradshaw and Malone or Cliff Stoudt or something, the Browns didn't NEED to take Ben, and so on.  There is a chance the Bengals passing on Mahommes because they had Dalton and McCarron (a guy Mike Brown valued at a 1st round pick or so) goes down as another draft boner.  

The counter to that would be that the Bengals also didn't take guys like Josh Rosen, Mitch Tribisky, Paxton Lynch, Marcus Mariota, Blake Bortles, Johnny Manzeil, EJ Manuel, or Brandon Weeden because they had Dalton, all of whom would've been downgrades at the position and sat the franchise back even further. So there's definitely a balancing act there. And I get that the counter is "well how far back could a bad team really fall back?"... but I think there's still plenty of room there, lol.

All I'm saying is, when the Bengals go to take their next QB of the future - and it's coming - I want to know that it's someone that ZT, Callahan, and the organization as a whole is comfortable with and ready to move forward with. I think a lot of people advocate replacing Andy just for the sake of replacing Andy, and I think that'd be a mistake. I think Reid took Mahomes because he fell in love with him more than because he knew he needed to move on from Alex.