When do we make the switch at QB?

[Rubekahn29]

When should we make a switch at QB? I am a huge Andy supporter, but Andy's time is running out. We likely will not make the playoffs this year so we have to play for the future. In my opinion once we hit 6 losses is good enough for me to switch the Finley (sooner would be fine for me too). We have to see what he can do so we know if we must draft a replacement in the draft or roll with Finley next year.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I mean, the next game he can’t even pick up a first down or cross midfield for an entire half, Finley would be starting the 2nd if I’m Zac Taylor.

[Big Boss]

You only make this change once you've been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Depending on how the rest of the AFC does, 9-7 could be enough to get in as a wildcard. So you figure 8 losses takes you out of the running.

Once they hit 8 losses, pull Dalton. No sooner, no later.

[Nicomo Cosca]

And say Finley comes in and looks halfway decent, we can cut Dalton next year with no dead money right?

Then draft a QB in the 1st and let him battle it out with Finley for the starters job in 2020.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-23-2019, 09:02 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: When should we make a switch at QB? I am a huge Andy supporter, but Andy's time is running out. We likely will not make the playoffs this year so we have to play for the future. In my opinion once we hit 6 losses is good enough for me to switch the Finley (sooner would be fine for me too). We have to see what he can do so we know if we must draft a replacement in the draft or roll with Finley next year.

The problem has become, Dalton is now stale like Marv was stale. 8+ years of the same thing. Time to make the move to try and provide some spark to get the team going. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-23-2019, 09:02 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: When should we make a switch at QB? I am a huge Andy supporter, but Andy's time is running out. We likely will not make the playoffs this year so we have to play for the future. In my opinion once we hit 6 losses is good enough for me to switch the Finley (sooner would be fine for me too). We have to see what he can do so we know if we must draft a replacement in the draft or roll with Finley next year.

I'm a "Dalton Defender" but I'm ready to move on from Dalton. I think a team can win with him, but I can't help but wonder if he's too broken. Too much poor blocking and too many OCs in the last few seasons have led to Dalton's strengths not overcoming his weaknesses. If Dalton starts off poor against Pitt, maybe a switch at QB will light a fire under the OL and the rest of the offense.

I just want to win.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-23-2019, 11:28 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And say Finley comes in and looks halfway decent, we can cut Dalton next year with no dead money right?

Then draft a QB in the 1st and let him battle it out with Finley for the starters job in 2020.

I'm still holding the flame for Dolegala. He's going to be the next great QB an amalgamation of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. He'll be the next Peytom Manndy.  :andy:

[*bengalfan74*]

I've been one of the bigger Dalton supporters on this board, and I have to say I've been doing some serious moving on from Andy thinking.

I wanted to see what Dalton could do under ZT and co. however the offensive line is trash and it's obvious Dalton isn't going to win much under the circumstances.

So you have to ask yourself is Dalton the answer down the road ? probably not

Now the rebuttal will be why put Finley or Dolegala in there and get them killed with that Oline ? Answer - because they can manipulate the pocket better and avoid the rush. (I turned the game off yesterday when AD ran right into the blitzer 1st series after halftime)

Basically speaking I'm ready at anytime.

[HarleyDog]

I'm all over the place on this one. On one hand I want him out now, then on the other I think he needs more time. He's not very athletic, doesn't step up in the pocket and has always struggled to keep the play alive so something can develop. With Andy, the focus has mainly been quick release and get the ball out of his hand. We need some flexibility and he lacks it. Worst case scenario I agree with the OP. If we go into game 6 with now wins, I think you make the move.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2019, 11:27 AM)Big Boss Wrote: You only make this change once you've been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.  Depending on how the rest of the AFC does, 9-7 could be enough to get in as a wildcard.  So you figure 8 losses takes you out of the running.

Once they hit 8 losses, pull Dalton.  No sooner, no later.

You guys know how I defend Dalton, but if we are eliminated we should see what we have in Finley.  Even if we are "mathematically" alive at 4-8 I'd start Finley over the final 4 games (unless the best team is 6-6 or worse)

Unless this defense and O-line makes huge improvements Dalton will have to play like a Pro Bowler to get another contract from the Bengals.  Even if he is playing well enough to start for another team that is just a QB away, we won't begin a complete re-build around a 34-year-old QB.  Plus paying a QB 20+ million makes it harder to fill other holes on the roster.  So we will be going with a Finley or a 2019 draft pick.  


It would be amazing for us if we were to have found a starter with a fourth round pick.  Again that allows us to use a high first round pick on another hole in the roster.

I am still hoping we can win something with Andy, AJ, Geno, Carlos, Dre K, and Gio, but it is looking less and less likely every week.

[Big Boss]

(09-23-2019, 12:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You guys know how I defend Dalton, but if we are eliminated we should see what we have in Finley.  Even if we are "mathematically" alive at 4-8 I'd start Finley over the final 4 games (unless the best team is 6-6 or worse)

Unless this defense and O-line makes huge improvements Dalton will have to play like a Pro Bowler to get another contract from the Bengals.  Even if he is playing well enough to start for another team that is just a QB away, we won't begin a complete re-build around a 34-year-old QB.  Plus paying a QB 20+ million makes it harder to fill other holes on the roster.  So we will be going with a Finley or a 2019 draft pick.  


It would be amazing for us if we were to have found a starter with a fourth round pick.  Again that allows us to use a high first round pick on another hole in the roster.

I am still hoping we can win something with Andy, AJ, Geno, Carlos, Dre K, and Gio, but it is looking less and less likely every week.

Correct all all fronts.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-23-2019, 12:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You guys know how I defend Dalton, but if we are eliminated we should see what we have in Finley.  Even if we are "mathematically" alive at 4-8 I'd start Finley over the final 4 games (unless the best team is 6-6 or worse)

Unless this defense and O-line makes huge improvements Dalton will have to play like a Pro Bowler to get another contract from the Bengals.  Even if he is playing well enough to start for another team that is just a QB away, we won't begin a complete re-build around a 34-year-old QB.  Plus paying a QB 20+ million makes it harder to fill other holes on the roster.  So we will be going with a Finley or a 2019 draft pick.  


It would be amazing for us if we were to have found a starter with a fourth round pick.  Again that allows us to use a high first round pick on another hole in the roster.

I am still hoping we can win something with Andy, AJ, Geno, Carlos, Dre K, and Gio, but it is looking less and less likely every week.

I'm 100% with you on that Fred !

But let's face it, this teams margin for error is teeny tiny, and barring miracles, we most likely ain't winning much. What I mean is I'm not sure there's any sense waiting on 4-8.

If we're 2-6 at the half pull the plug, if not before ?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-23-2019, 12:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm 100% with you on that Fred !

But let's face it, this teams margin for error is teeny tiny, and barring miracles, we most likely ain't winning much. What I mean is I'm not sure there's any sense waiting on 4-8.

If we're 2-6 at the half pull the plug, if not before ?

Sure.

My question is how many losses with no wins do we go before making a major change like that? Do we wait until 0-6, 0-8?

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2019, 12:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If we're 2-6 at the half pull the plug, if not before ?

You are going to lose a lot of the older guys in the locker room if you do that unless Dalton is playing poorly.

It is easier to convince players to tank in baseball and basketball when they are not risking their bodies as much in the games.  

If you bench a QB who is playing well enough to win with a little help from the defense and running game it means you are giving up.

[HarleyDog]

(09-23-2019, 12:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You guys know how I defend Dalton, but if we are eliminated we should see what we have in Finley.  Even if we are "mathematically" alive at 4-8 I'd start Finley over the final 4 games (unless the best team is 6-6 or worse)

My question is, "Why wait that long?" If he makes a difference, maybe he does it right off the start and we still might have a snowballs chance? Doesnt mean we're giving up on the season, just means we are trying something different.

Quote:Unless this defense and O-line makes huge improvements Dalton will have to play like a Pro Bowler to get another contract from the Bengals.  Even if he is playing well enough to start for another team that is just a QB away, we won't begin a complete re-build around a 34-year-old QB.  Plus paying a QB 20+ million makes it harder to fill other holes on the roster.  So we will be going with a Finley or a 2019 draft pick.  

Based on the history of the organization and it's loyalty to veteran players, I really would count out a Dalton re-sign even if we went 2-14. MB has made some un MB-like changes here lately, but do we really think he has it in him to move on?

Quote:It would be amazing for us if we were to have found a starter with a fourth round pick.  Again that allows us to use a high first round pick on another hole in the roster.

Ok, I'm about to throw out the Tom Brady BS on this one but hey, why not right? Tom was a 6th round pick and IMO is only as successful as the team has allowed him to be. As he will be considered one of the greatest of all time, he had a lot of disciplined players who were where they were supposed to be when he threw the ball. Brady and Dalton have similar traits. Neither is highly athletic and both will crumble when the pocket collapses and sometimes make bad decisions. But Dalton is not why I brought up Brady, just wanted to emphasize on the discipline and concentration around him. The Patriots locker room is unlike any other in the NFL and BB has a hold on it. But my point was going to be, if we throw a 4th round QB in there what's the difference as long as we function as a unit and play focused? Our team can be just as good if not better if the right coaching and player buy-ins are similar.

Quote:I am still hoping we can win something with Andy, AJ, Geno, Carlos, Dre K, and Gio, but it is looking less and less likely every week.

Your right. There is hope but the light is growing dim. I love watching Dalton and I have supported him as well. He is better than an avg QB right now. But we've seen some concerns in the first 3 games with some off late throws, tipped balls (yes I attribute some of that to the line as well) and no pocket instinct. If the balls not moving quickly, he struggles to survive and his out of pocket throws are not looking so great again. I thought he turned a corner on that last year but seems to have resurfaced.
As for AJ, Geno, Carlos and Gio, we owe these guys a playoff run (no mention of Dre K on purpose). Those mentioned have really worked hard for this team and they want victory.

[HarleyDog]

(09-23-2019, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are going to lose a lot of the older guys in the locker room if you do that unless Dalton is playing poorly.

It is easier to convince players to tank in baseball and basketball when they are not risking their bodies as much in the games.  

If you bench a QB who is playing well enough to win with a little help from the defense and running game it means you are giving up.

Trust me Fred, not picking on you, just wanted to respond to both of your posts because they were both very good. But let's think about it for a second. Would you really loose the older guys who want to win? If your focus is on winning, and their focus is the same? Why would it matter? The older guys on defense surely don't want to be out there busting their rumps like yesterday with little breaks in between because your offense can't keep you off the field. Now, that's not Daltons fault, but he is the leader of the offense and if it isn't getting done, then you try something different. I mean seriously, it's no different than a halftime adjustment right? When things aint working, you try something else.

As for Dalton playing well enough to win, well, that's highly debatable. We should have won game 1 and 3. As a leader of the offense, you are going to be held accountable. So let's hope he kicks the shit out of Pittsburgh and the momentum steam rolls throughout the rest of the season, because at the end of the day, I want Dalton out there getting his playoff run too.

Then there's this. Maybe all the changes in coaching and playbook has been a little overwhelming for these guys and it's just taking awhile to fire it up? I mean, really, who knows the underlying factors these guys are dealing with trying to put together their first win?

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2019, 06:56 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: My question is, "Why wait that long?" If he makes a difference, maybe he does it right off the start and we still might have a snowballs chance? Doesnt mean we're giving up on the season, just means we are trying something different.

Change for the sake of change never helped anything.  If Dalton struggles then everyone will be okay with him getting replaced.  If he is not struggling then you don't replace him.

(09-23-2019, 07:09 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Trust me Fred, not picking on you, just wanted to respond to both of your posts because they were both very good. But let's think about it for a second. Would you really loose the older guys who want to win? If your focus is on winning, and their focus is the same? Why would it matter? The older guys on defense surely don't want to be out there busting their rumps like yesterday with little breaks in between because your offense can't keep you off the field. Now, that's not Daltons fault, but he is the leader of the offense and if it isn't getting done, then you try something different.

If you bench him when it is not his fault then you lose a lot of the locker room.

The running game is much worse than the passing game, so why not bench Mixon and Gio?

[BengalsRocker]

(09-23-2019, 08:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Change for the sake of change never helped anything.  If Dalton struggles then everyone will be okay with him getting replaced.  If he is not struggling then you don't replace him.



If you bench him when it is not his fault then you lose a lot of the locker room.

The running game is much worse than the passing game, so why not bench Mixon and Gio?

Because that doesn't fit the narrative.

[PDub80]

(09-23-2019, 08:28 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Because that doesn't fit the narrative.

Sure it does. Neither of those two are fumbling away games or turning the ball over in crucial moments this season.


The love for a QB who only 2 or 3 teams in the league would take over what they have (when healthy) is really goofy. What other team besides the Dolphins or the Bucs would rather have Dalton if their regular starter were healthy? Not with the boneheaded INTs and fumbles he has had 3 straightaight games.

Andy Dalton is 1-10 over his last 11 games. Let that sink in. What teams would want Andy Dalton at this point?

[*jason*]

(09-23-2019, 09:12 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Sure it does. Neither of those two are fumbling away games or turning the ball over in crucial moments this season.


The love for a QB who only 2 or 3 teams in the league would take over what they have (when healthy) is really goofy. What other team besides the Dolphins or the Bucs would rather have Dalton if their regular starter were healthy? Not with the boneheaded INTs and fumbles he has had 3 straightaight games.

Andy Dalton is 1-10 over his last 11 games. Let that sink in. What teams would want Andy Dalton at this point?

Washington, Denver, Tennessee, I think Chicago would think about it right now, maybe the Raiders... All of this pure speculation of course. Maybe they love the scrubs they have at the moment.