Maybe QB isn't our biggest problem?
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Maybe QB isn't our biggest problem?
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10-12-2019, 12:36 AM
(10-11-2019, 07:16 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Hell, wouldn't it be funny if he did leave, go to the Patriots, then take over when Brady retires and win 5-6 SBs with them? Wouldn't it be funny if we rolled with Dalton for another 4+ years and Finley went to the Patriots and won 5-6 SBs with them? ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png) 
10-12-2019, 12:43 AM
(10-11-2019, 10:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: Thing is, it's much easier to rebuild when you have a QB on his rookie deal than when you're paying him $20+ mil a year. If you're not giving Dalton that kind of extension, then you need to draft a QB in the first if you have a crack at a quality prospect. 1.) Not saying no to QB but do we have to draft one with our first pick? I am not overly impressed with either Tua, Herbert, and Love to draft in the top 5. Would prefer Hurts, Burrow, or Fromm late in late first early second window. 2.) would actually like to trade down for more picks similar to what the Colts did in 18. 3.) Agreed Dalton is worth 20 million. Think your a bit harsh on him but I would not sign him to another extension. Infact if I'm GM he is not on the Roster next season.
10-12-2019, 01:07 AM
(10-11-2019, 10:51 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: So lets say we draft a QB with our first pick. We have him for 4 years and possibly 5 with the option. What do you do if he struggles the 1st year, and then 2nd year and 3rd year only to succeed in year 4? Do you assume that his struggles were because he was young and hope that by extending him he continues and that his 4th year wasn't an aberration? What do you do if he is successful his 1st and 2nd year and then struggles his 3rd and 4th year? You can apply that redrafting logic to any position, not just QB. In fact, you can argue that we're currently in that kind of a cycle at OT, just drafting them over and over and over again until we hit on one.
10-12-2019, 01:42 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:43 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) Not saying no to QB but do we have to draft one with our first pick? I am not overly impressed with either Tua, Herbert, and Love to draft in the top 5. Would prefer Hurts, Burrow, or Fromm late in late first early second window. The issue with waiting on taking on a QB with the rationale that you like lower rated prospects better is that if you think that, then other teams are going to think that and take them before they fall to you. If nobody else thinks that, then you likely missed on your evaluation. If you're picking third and you're convinced Burrow, Fromm, or Hurts is a franchise QB, then you take them at 3. Fromm has arm strength issues and could very well be another Andy Dalton type QB. Hurts and Burrow are one year wonders that transferred to get out from behind other QB's. Hurts was buried behind Tua at bama, which is kind of a smoking gun that he's not as good a prospect. Trading down sounds great, but only really seems to work out if you get a massive haul including multiple firsts. However, trading down when you're in the market for a franchise QB is pretty much suicide. The Browns employed similar philosophies when they got Quinn and Manziel, and it set them back years. 
10-12-2019, 02:24 AM
(10-11-2019, 07:12 PM)jason Wrote: QB isn't the problem... I'm just ready to move on from Andy for his own good. He deserves better than this. He took a team friendly deal only to have the team let his line, and weapons fall apart. He got booed at a charity softball game for Christ sakes. Part of me even hopes he goes to some team we play next year, and whips our ass. What a stupid thing to say. Then again it’s not quite as stupid as thinking Dalton would win 5-6 SB’s in NE, or not wanting Mahomes or Watson as our QB... Lot of hot takes in this thread lol 
10-12-2019, 02:34 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:02 AM)Joelist Wrote: If you take a franchise QB right now you have to plan on redshirting them. This is because putting them out there behind a line this bad is setting them up to fail. So basically the plan becomes Franchise QB + multiple OL picks + redshirt QB while the rebuilt line gels. This isn't the 90s or even early 00s anymore. People always throw this out--build the line first, etc etc--that's not the way the NFL works these days. QBs (the top ones) coming out in the draft are much more advanced than they were years ago. They're taught and given more responsibility at an earlier age. More and more, QBs come out of college ready to step right into an NFL environment. NFL teams want a franchise QB first. Then you build around that. Free agency has made it almost impossible to "build" an offensive line and keep them all together for years. Teams want a QB, then they want guys that can stop a QB. That's why you see so many DE and CBs go early in drafts. Then they want guys to protect the QB and weapons for the QB. Weapons and Olinemen can be interchangeable. Free agency has made it easier to get a guy to plug and play on the line. Just so anyone doesn't think i'm talking out of my ass, in the last 5 NFL drafts, here's how it breaks down by position in the first round: 22 DE and 15 other DL for a total of 37 defensive lineman. 19 OT and 9 other OL for a total of 28 offensive lineman. 17 cornerbacks. Of the teams that drafted OTs in the first round, here are the QBs that were starting for that team. 2015; Cousins, EManning, Brees, Dalton and Palmer 2016; Flacco, Mariota, Tannehill, Stafford and Wilson 2017; Siemian, Brees 2018; Garappolo, Carr and Brady 2019; Dalton, Wentz, Watson and Ryan So you can see, teams draft OTs in the first round for the sole purpose of protecting their established QB...with the one exception of Siemian (who they may have considered their guy at the time). "The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
10-12-2019, 03:04 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:24 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'd consider a franchise QB a Top 10 QB that makes a team much better just by his presence. But, yeah projecting that is the trick. Franchise QBs aren't that hard to see. It should take about 5 years of sustained, top 15 play, for a guy to get that 2nd (big) contract. Going by that 5 year mark, starting in 2014, based on passer rating, the top 15 guys are, Mahomes, Watson, Brees, Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Cousins, Prescott, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Smith, Luck, Stafford, Goff. I'd remove Mahomes, Watson, Prescott and Goff because they're still too young and haven't proven it over several seasons. I'd remove Cousins because he's in year 5 right now. If he matches what he's done this year, he belongs on the list. Right below those 15 are Wentz, Tannehill, Dalton, Mariota, Carr and Winston. They're on the outside looking in. So, of the established QBs since 2014, the "true" franchise QBs are currently; Brees, Wilson, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Roethlisberger, Rivers and Stafford. Eight guys. With Cousins close to joining them. Potential franchise QBs, by that criteria, based on the early numbers they put up are; Mahomes and Watson. Goff, Wentz and Prescott still have a way to go before earning that 2nd big contract, though they'll probably get it regardless partly by their play and partly by where they were drafted (except Prescott). The kicker is...since it's hard to find a guy that can consistently give you top 10-15 play, guys in the 15-20 range have a good chance of getting that contract anyway. "The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
10-12-2019, 03:16 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I doubt Dalton would put up good stats in NE. Their WR's outside of Edelman aren't special. Dalton has shown that he needs top tier WR's. By quarterback rating he's 7th best (85.4) "The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
10-12-2019, 05:58 AM
Anyone saying they wouldn’t touch Watson , Wentz, or Mahomes should have their head examined.
10-12-2019, 08:44 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:24 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'd consider a franchise QB a Top 10 QB that makes a team much better just by his presence. But, yeah projecting that is the trick. This is something I just disagree with. Dalton was actually a top 10 QB in '15 when he had the best OLine of his career. Whitworth, Boling, Bodine, Zeitler, Smith. The weakest link was Bodine, but even he wasn't really that bad. The top 10 thing is also a bit silly wouldn't you say? I'll explain a bit here. There are only 32 teams and when ranking the QBs we rank each team's starting QB. We don't really look at the back ups and consider them in the rankings. So the focus is on the starters. So when ranking the best QBs, we usually look at the team's win/loss record, after all the QB is given an unfair amount of credit and blame for this record. Then we look at stats, which can be very misleading since the game plan and scheme and coaching philosophy is different from team to team. That isn't even counting who the targets the QB has to throw to are. For instance their rookie year, Cam and Dalton were compared. Cam had the stats, but Dalton had the wins. Cam had an ageing Steve Smith to throw to while Dalton had a rookie AJ Green. Some argued that Cam had the edge as Smith was a veteran player who wasn't quite done yet, but others argued Green was a phenom and if Cam had Green he would have been better and Dalton would have been worse with Smith. Whose the better QB? (this is rhetorical). So if a team is winless and the QBs stats aren't fantasy stats (which for the record Dalton is at 7 in total yards without Green). Then the media will give their "top 10" rankings at QB. Usually Dalton falls outside of the top 10 because face it, the Bengals from 16-to present haven't had the successes to put Dalton in the top 10. Finally, we all have our own top 10.
10-12-2019, 08:48 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I doubt Dalton would put up good stats in NE. Their WR's outside of Edelman aren't special. Dalton has shown that he needs top tier WR's. I think the coaching and system is better in NE and Dalton has shown he doesn't need top tier weapons. Just a top tier OLine and scheme to keep him upright.
10-12-2019, 08:58 AM
(10-12-2019, 12:36 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Wouldn't it be funny if we rolled with Dalton for another 4+ years and Finley went to the Patriots and won 5-6 SBs with them? Yes it would be. However, Finley is not as attacked on here as much as Dalton is. Even those who like Dalton and are supportive of him wouldn't bash Finley if Finley were named the starter. Plus, Finley would be here, while many on here are calling for us to just plain cut Dalton. If that were to happen, I could see Dalton signing with the Patriots and backing up Brady. Right now, NE has Kessler and Stidham. Dalton as a free agent, would be able to choose where he would want to go. If he couldn't get a starting job (since he is so terrible) then maybe he would be interested in a back up role. Texas teams would be in consideration at that point, but don't count out NE. Another thought that would be crazy funny, would be if the Steelers signed him as a back up. Ben retires or gets injured, and Dalton is brought out, only to win a SB in Pittsburgh. With the hatred and vitriol Dalton receives, it would be funny to watch him go somewhere else and win, especially SBs. Of course you don't want to see that since it would probably make you look foolish (I assume you want us to cut ties with Dalton).
10-12-2019, 09:07 AM
(10-12-2019, 01:07 AM)Whatever Wrote: You can apply that redrafting logic to any position, not just QB. In fact, you can argue that we're currently in that kind of a cycle at OT, just drafting them over and over and over again until we hit on one. This is true. We did draft Og and Fisher only to have them bust. We drafted Price who hasn't been what we expected, and Williams got injured, so we don't know about him. However, there are more OLine holes to fill than with QB. If you fix the OLine, then the QB position improves. If you fix the QB without fixing the OLine then both positions will continue to struggle. Williams I think is a good OT. Early showing of Thomas and Kindley are that they are both good OLine. I don't know if Price is that bad or that the play around him is so bad that he looks worse, I also think experience will help him. You mentioned the 5th year option... wouldn't it be better to be able to use that option on the 5 OLine players, rather than the 1 QB position? When you do find the studs, you keep them. 
10-12-2019, 10:30 AM
(10-12-2019, 02:24 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What a stupid thing to say. Then again it’s not quite as stupid as thinking Dalton would win 5-6 SB’s in NE, or not wanting Mahomes or Watson as our QB... Thanks for checking in with your great and unmatched wisdom Chief...
Poo Dey
10-12-2019, 11:16 AM
(10-12-2019, 09:07 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is true. We did draft Og and Fisher only to have them bust. We drafted Price who hasn't been what we expected, and Williams got injured, so we don't know about him. Look at Mahommes play in the 2nd half of his last game. Once he injured his ankle, his stats went into the crapper.
10-12-2019, 11:27 AM
(10-12-2019, 11:16 AM)PV Bengal Wrote: Look at Mahommes play in the 2nd half of his last game. Once he injured his ankle, his stats went into the crapper. I've noticed this myself. However there are some on here that are choosing to ignore this game. They think it to be an outlier. Maybe it is. Who really knows. Something tells me that a certain coach that wears a hoodie is very interested in that game and he is probably already working on how to keep him in the pocket and not letting him have wide open WRs. I also think Zimmer showed a great blue print in facing these types of QBs. Look at what he did to RGIII when we faced them a few years back. Kept him in the pocket and played disciplined coverage. Couldn't scramble, couldn't take off and run and no wide open WRs for him to throw the ball to. Stats went downhill that game.
10-12-2019, 11:50 AM
(10-12-2019, 08:58 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Yes it would be. However, Finley is not as attacked on here as much as Dalton is. Even those who like Dalton and are supportive of him wouldn't bash Finley if Finley were named the starter. Plus, Finley would be here, while many on here are calling for us to just plain cut Dalton. If that were to happen, I could see Dalton signing with the Patriots and backing up Brady. I'm just pointing out that any time in the past decade or so when fans have ever thought about replacing a player the whole "He's gonna go to the Patriots and win 50 SBs!" threat has emerged. Everyone is going to go to NE and win the SB, I know. Honestly, I'm surprised the NFL just doesn't let them have a roster of 1000 players so everyone can go there and win a bunch of SBs and make their former teams super jealous. 
10-12-2019, 11:58 AM
(10-12-2019, 11:27 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I also think Zimmer showed a great blue print in facing these types of QBs. Look at what he did to RGIII when we faced them a few years back. Kept him in the pocket and played disciplined coverage. Couldn't scramble, couldn't take off and run and no wide open WRs for him to throw the ball to. Stats went downhill that game. Not to derail this fine thread — and we need a separate thread on defense — but with a bad offensive line it’s simple to game plan against Andy Dalton but a smart defensive coordinator will do the opposite of what the brilliant Mike Zimmer did to contain RGIII. While the secret to defeating RGIII was keeping him in the pocket, the secret to containing Andy Dalton is to collapse the pocket, make him throw on the run, and force him to make those throws into tight man coverage. Combine this with the Bengals’ lack of a rushing attack and we arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Cincinnati has a scoring ceiling of 17-21 points per game. The facts are there. Andy has been sacked 20 times which is the most of any quarterback in 2019. He’s thrown eight touchdown passes against four interceptions while throwing for over 1400 yards in five games. Good as he is, he can’t make up for the lack of a run game with his arm alone. 1400 yards is a lot for five games and it means when Andy does get time to throw — and someone is open — he makes the most of it.
10-12-2019, 12:02 PM
(10-12-2019, 11:50 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm just pointing out that any time in the past decade or so when fans have ever thought about replacing a player the whole "He's gonna go to the Patriots and win 50 SBs!" threat has emerged. Everyone is going to go to NE and win the SB, I know. Honestly, I'm surprised the NFL just doesn't let them have a roster of 1000 players so everyone can go there and win a bunch of SBs and make their former teams super jealous. We should've never let Mike Nugent go...
Poo Dey
10-12-2019, 12:39 PM
(10-12-2019, 11:58 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Not to derail this fine thread — and we need a separate thread on defense — but with a bad offensive line it’s simple to game plan against Andy Dalton but a smart defensive coordinator will do the opposite of what the brilliant Mike Zimmer did to contain RGIII. While the secret to defeating RGIII was keeping him in the pocket, the secret to containing Andy Dalton is to collapse the pocket, make him throw on the run, and force him to make those throws into tight man coverage. Combine this with the Bengals’ lack of a rushing attack and we arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Cincinnati has a scoring ceiling of 17-21 points per game. Yeah...it's almost as if we have a bad team top to bottom isn't it?
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