Maybe QB isn't our biggest problem?

[Socal Bengals fan]

Yes. We are now comparing Dalton to Mahomes. Yep. That’s seems pretty reasonable to me. Fml.

[J24]

(10-12-2019, 01:42 AM)Whatever Wrote: The issue with waiting on taking on a QB with the rationale that you like lower rated prospects better is that if you think that, then other teams are going to think that and take them before they fall to you.  If nobody else thinks that, then you likely missed on your evaluation.  If you're picking third and you're convinced Burrow, Fromm, or Hurts is a franchise QB, then you take them at 3.  

Fromm has arm strength issues and could very well be another Andy Dalton type QB.  Hurts and Burrow are one year wonders that transferred to get out from behind other QB's.  Hurts was buried behind Tua at bama, which is kind of a smoking gun that he's not as good a prospect.  

Trading down sounds great, but only really seems to work out if you get a massive haul including multiple firsts.  However, trading down when you're in the market for a franchise QB is pretty much suicide.  The Browns employed similar philosophies when they got Quinn and Manziel, and it set them back years.

1.)  I don't think there is a QB worth a top 5 pick and overdrafting one just puts him & franchise in a more difficult position.

2.) You can't live in fear that someone else will take your guy. It's the draft your ultimately going to be playing Chicken with Multiple prospects.

3.) I'm not going to dive into the  draft prospects here thats for the draft forum. Not saying the points you are bringing up are bad or good.

4.) Was the problem with the Browns the process or execution of the plan?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-12-2019, 11:50 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm just pointing out that any time in the past decade or so when fans have ever thought about replacing a player the whole "He's gonna go to the Patriots and win 50 SBs!"  threat has emerged.  Everyone is going to go to NE and win the SB, I know.  Honestly, I'm surprised the NFL just doesn't let them have a roster of 1000 players so everyone can go there and win a bunch of SBs and make their former teams super jealous.

It isn't all that farfetched.  The Patriots seem to be the destination of those wanting to win the SB.  Dillon (though that was before the hype), Revis, Chad and Moss both tried (and failed).  AB just attempted it and he is still interested in being a Patriot.

I am not saying it as a threat.  Only as something that would be funny.

Rex Burkhead and James Develin are both players that this organization had and let go.  Both have not just gone to NE, they have succeeded there.  Burkhead was just as instrumental to NE's SB win as James White was.  Many times we have players that are actually pretty good, but we don't keep them for whatever reason.  They then go to another team and play extremely well. 

So with the bashing of Dalton that is extremely evident on this board, it would be funny to see him succeed and even win SBs.  Of course many fans wouldn't like that as it would expose them as not being good at evaluating talent.

[Whatever]

(10-12-2019, 09:07 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is true.  We did draft Og and Fisher only to have them bust.  We drafted Price who hasn't been what we expected, and Williams got injured, so we don't know about him.

However, there are more OLine holes to fill than with QB.  If you fix the OLine, then the QB position improves.  If you fix the QB without fixing the OLine then both positions will continue to struggle.

Williams I think is a good OT.  Early showing of Thomas and Kindley are that they are both good OLine.  I don't know if Price is that bad or that the play around him is so bad that he looks worse, I also think experience will help him.

You mentioned the 5th year option... wouldn't it be better to be able to use that option on the 5 OLine players, rather than the 1 QB position?  When you do find the studs, you keep them.

Having your QB on a rookie contract gives you more cap space to address/retain players at other position groups.  Having a QB on a $20+ mil deal hamstrings rebuilding.  Having a mediocre QB on a $20+ mil deal is crippling.

There are more spots on your roster for OL than QB, so it makes sense to spend your 1st round pick on a QB you're sold on and draft multiple OL and see who you hit on.  At least that way, you have cheap depth on the OL and aren't bringing in has been vets in FA to fill out your depth chart.

Every player on the team is dependent on and feeds off the others.  There are 2 types of QB's out there, ones that up the level of play of the guys around them and ones that have their level of play upped by the guys around them.  Andy is sadly the latter.  We've been trying to build the perfect roster around him for almost a decade and it hasn't worked.  Why continue with a failed experiment?  How many teams are winning SB's with mediocre QB"s these days?  Not many, I can tell you that.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-12-2019, 12:40 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Yes.  We are now comparing Dalton to Mahomes.   Yep. That’s seems pretty reasonable to me.   Fml.

That isn't what is happening.

Of course when talking about the Bengals we have to talk about Dalton.

When talking about the perceived top QBs in the league, Mahomes is at the top of the list.

No one is actually comparing them.  Why do many posters on here jump to this conclusion every time a thread mentions 2 QBs?

I have been very clear that you can't compare QBs so easily.  Especially a pocket passer like Dalton and a Scrambling passer like Mahomes.  

Hell if you actually read and understood my post you can see that I am specifically talking about the different styles of QB and why I prefer the pocket passers over the scramblers.

[grampahol]

The minute Wittworth and Zietler left everything fell to pieces and everyone knows that except for those who insist that Andy is THE problem.. The oline has been a mess ever since with piecemeal attempts to fix it. 
Andy isn't the problem although he's not the greatest QB in the history of the league, but he's far from the worst. 
The oline and the offensive play calling have been of major major concern with almost nothing done to address it other than the revolving door of coordinators.. 
C'mon folks..

[*Nately120*]

(10-12-2019, 12:55 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: It isn't all that farfetched.  The Patriots seem to be the destination of those wanting to win the SB.  Dillon (though that was before the hype), Revis, Chad and Moss both tried (and failed).  AB just attempted it and he is still interested in being a Patriot.

I am not saying it as a threat.  Only as something that would be funny.

Rex Burkhead and James Develin are both players that this organization had and let go.  Both have not just gone to NE, they have succeeded there.  Burkhead was just as instrumental to NE's SB win as James White was.  Many times we have players that are actually pretty good, but we don't keep them for whatever reason.  They then go to another team and play extremely well. 

So with the bashing of Dalton that is extremely evident on this board, it would be funny to see him succeed and even win SBs.  Of course many fans wouldn't like that as it would expose them as not being good at evaluating talent.

I get it, I do and I've said something about AJ going to NE and getting a ring, so I believe it.  Dalton is a bit of a stretch, as is really any QB because the Patriots have been rolling with Bledsoe and Brady since 1993, so the notion of them replacing Brady with a 10 year vet is possible but lacks the punch normally associated with this threat.  Usually, it is about fanbases giving up on younger and talented but pain in the arse guys like the ABs or the Chad Kelly's of the world that leads to this "we're gonna be sorry when the Patriots snap him up!" mantra. For that reason I'd have an easier time seeing Ryan Finley winning a SB in NE before I would see Dalton doing it...that and we're likely to roll with Dalton until he retires, but that's just my take.

The best part though is that no one has mentioned players going to the Steelers and winning multiple SBs, so at least they've declined as of late.  

[grampahol]

I have never hoped for and never will hope for any Bengals player to go elsewhere for a "ring". If they can't get one with the Bungles then they probably don't deserve one anyway.. 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-12-2019, 01:04 PM)Whatever Wrote: Having your QB on a rookie contract gives you more cap space to address/retain players at other position groups.  Having a QB on a $20+ mil deal hamstrings rebuilding.  Having a mediocre QB on a $20+ mil deal is crippling.

There are more spots on your roster for OL than QB, so it makes sense to spend your 1st round pick on a QB you're sold on and draft multiple OL and see who you hit on.  At least that way, you have cheap depth on the OL and aren't bringing in has been vets in FA to fill out your depth chart.

Every player on the team is dependent on and feeds off the others.  There are 2 types of QB's out there, ones that up the level of play of the guys around them and ones that have their level of play upped by the guys around them.  Andy is sadly the latter.  We've been trying to build the perfect roster around him for almost a decade and it hasn't worked.  Why continue with a failed experiment?  How many teams are winning SB's with mediocre QB"s these days?  Not many, I can tell you that.

Many consider Nick Foles mediocre.  Philly won.  Eli is considered mediocre and has 2 wins.  Joe Flacco, possibly, has a SB.

Aside from Brady and P. Manning, the past 10 years haven't had too many of the types of QBs that the media salivates over.  Russell Wilson is the only QB on a rookie deal to win the SB.  Wentz could have possibly done it, but he did get injured and Foles played great. (a quick review shows that Rodgers is on this list as well)


I don't get this "Andy doesn't improve his guys" how do you even come to this conclusion?  A video in which he wasn't as inspiring as Brees?  I never seen Manning give a pregame speech that was overly inspiring.

I disagree with us trying to build a team around him as well.  We let both Marvin Jones and Sanu go at the same time.  I can see 1 guy going but not both.  We waved bye to Zeitler and kept Kirkpatrick.  Eifert has been injured, but instead of getting Howard we get guys like Sample to replace him.  We let Whitworth go, which actually made sense considering his age, but we missed on both OT draft picks that would have been his replacement, one due to medical and the other due to being just plain horrid.  So the OLine is ripped up, good WRs gone, passing on talented TEs is not building around Dalton.

Of course, that is my opinion.  I can see why many on here are ready to move on from Dalton.  If the team does, then fine.  I just think it would be a mistake, especially if we go for a scrambling QB.

[*bfine32*]

(10-11-2019, 07:12 PM)jason Wrote: QB isn't the problem... I'm just ready to move on from Andy for his own good. He deserves better than this. He took a team friendly deal only to have the team let his line, and weapons fall apart. He got booed at a charity softball game for Christ sakes. Part of me even hopes he goes to some team we play next year, and whips our ass.

And quite frankly; I'm tired of hearing about him.

...and all of me hopes he goes to a team we face in the playoffs. 

As to the OP: Of course QB isn't our biggest problem, hell with the right pieces this team won with AJ McCarron and came one fumble and a conduct meltdown away from winning our first playoff game since Boomer. WTS if we ebd up with a top pick and the best ranked QB in the draft is available we'd look silly not taking him unless Andy suddenly reverses his play and vastly improves on the 26th passer rating where he currently sits and has been around the last couple years. 

[Whatever]

(10-12-2019, 12:40 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.)  I don't think there is a QB worth a top 5 pick and overdrafting one just puts him & franchise in a more difficult position.

2.) You can't live in fear that someone else will take your guy. It's the draft your ultimately going to be playing Chicken with Multiple prospects.

3.) I'm not going to dive into the  draft prospects here thats for the draft forum. Not saying the points you are bringing up are bad or good.

4.) Was the problem with the Browns the process or execution of the plan?

1.QB's get overdrafted every year due to the importance of the position group.  If you think a guy is a franchise QB, then he's worth a top 5 pick.  If you don't think there's a franchise QB in this class, that's a whole different discussion.

2.You have to play the odds.  There are much better odds that you can get a quality or even All Pro caliber player at any other position group than QB outside of the Top 10.  That's why it doesn't make sense to go T or whatever and hope a QB falls to us.  QB isn't a position you play chicken with.

4.It's hard to say.  However, we do know that this franchise hasn't been able to surround an average QB with enough talent to win playoff games and championships.

[Daddy-O]

(10-11-2019, 08:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree, if I owned a team, I wouldn't make a single move just to appease a fan base.  However, if the Management decided that it's time to make a full rebuild, the customary way to go about it is to choose your franchise QB, and build the rest of the team around him.

That's assuming there is a franchise QB for the taking.  They are hard to come by.  

I don't have much confidence in this management team strike gold.  They drafted Klinger and Akili Smith for crying out loud!  You could also end up with the next Ryan Leaf.  Drafting a franchise QB is a crap shoot.  

I'd build the line and then find a QB.

[*Nately120*]

(10-12-2019, 01:32 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: That's assuming there is a franchise QB for the taking.  They are hard to come by.  

I don't have much confidence in this management team strike gold.  They drafted Klinger and Akili Smith for crying out loud!  You could also end up with the next Ryan Leaf.  Drafting a franchise QB is a crap shoot.  

I'd build the line and then find a QB.

That is all possible, but at the same time how can a franchise that has had 2 QBs for nearly 20 years and 0 post-season wins to show for it be scared to try a new QB?  As much as we say a high 1st pick QB could be the next Ryan Leaf I can see other fanbases say "Sure, we COULD stick with our QB but what if we end up like the Bengals and spend two decades with 2 QBs and win nothing?"


Building the line BEFORE we draft a QB is a logical move, but our o-line has been bad for years and despite Mike Brown actually trying (in his own half-assed way) to fix it, it is WORSE than before he tried to fix it. When is our o-line going to be good enough to warrant drafting a QB? It's been years with no relief in sight...so we just extend Dalton until 2025 and hope that at some point the o-line will finally be good enough to boot his ass and put someone else in there? Oof!

[Whatever]

(10-12-2019, 01:21 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Many consider Nick Foles mediocre.  Philly won.  Eli is considered mediocre and has 2 wins.  Joe Flacco, possibly, has a SB.

Aside from Brady and P. Manning, the past 10 years haven't had too many of the types of QBs that the media salivates over.  Russell Wilson is the only QB on a rookie deal to win the SB.  Wentz could have possibly done it, but he did get injured and Foles played great. (a quick review shows that Rodgers is on this list as well)


I don't get this "Andy doesn't improve his guys" how do you even come to this conclusion?  A video in which he wasn't as inspiring as Brees?  I never seen Manning give a pregame speech that was overly inspiring.

I disagree with us trying to build a team around him as well.  We let both Marvin Jones and Sanu go at the same time.  I can see 1 guy going but not both.  We waved bye to Zeitler and kept Kirkpatrick.  Eifert has been injured, but instead of getting Howard we get guys like Sample to replace him.  We let Whitworth go, which actually made sense considering his age, but we missed on both OT draft picks that would have been his replacement, one due to medical and the other due to being just plain horrid.  So the OLine is ripped up, good WRs gone, passing on talented TEs is not building around Dalton.

Of course, that is my opinion.  I can see why many on here are ready to move on from Dalton.  If the team does, then fine.  I just think it would be a mistake, especially if we go for a scrambling QB.

Foles and Flacco are fair examples.  Eli wasn't considered mediocre when he won his rings.  It's what's happened afterwards that makes people think he's currently mediocre.  However, for the last decade plus it's been mostly elite QB's like Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, etc.  

I'm not going to get into leadership stuff because I'm not in the locker room.  Frankly, different people respond to different types of leadership and you honestly need guys with different styles throughout your roster.  He has accuracy issues, especially ball placement issues.  He has issues driving the ball in high wind and in rain.  He can't make a lot of throws if he gets moved off his spot and can't get reset.  

Andy had rosters that were at least solid at every position group for several years. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-12-2019, 12:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...it's almost as if we have a bad team top to bottom isn't it?

It’s beyond the team. It’s bad coaching too but most of the bad habits are left over from the previous regime. I’m not giving the current coaching staff a pass, either, but they need a chance to not only change the culture in Cincinnati but to change the techniques and schemes too.

Let’s use “recovering” or “rebuilding” to describe the 2019 Bengals. I started a thread before the regular season began which predicted a slow start with a good finish. We are necessarily impatient as Bengals fans and we want another playoff berth right now but sometimes reconstruction takes time. We got spoiled in 2003 when Marvin Lewis sparked a visible turnaround but now, under Zac Taylor, the turnaround is slower and that’s okay.

Bad habits are hard to break. Bad technique is hard to reverse especially when it has become comfortable or ingrained. However, not all is lost. When Zac’s schemes are finally internalized across the board the Cincinnati Bengals will be the team to beat.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-12-2019, 12:55 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: It isn't all that farfetched.  The Patriots seem to be the destination of those wanting to win the SB.  Dillon (though that was before the hype), Revis, Chad and Moss both tried (and failed).  AB just attempted it and he is still interested in being a Patriot.

I am not saying it as a threat.  Only as something that would be funny.

Rex Burkhead and James Develin are both players that this organization had and let go.  Both have not just gone to NE, they have succeeded there.  Burkhead was just as instrumental to NE's SB win as James White was.  Many times we have players that are actually pretty good, but we don't keep them for whatever reason.  They then go to another team and play extremely well. 

So with the bashing of Dalton that is extremely evident on this board, it would be funny to see him succeed and even win SBs.  Of course many fans wouldn't like that as it would expose them as not being good at evaluating talent.

I'm with you on wanting to see Dalton go to a good team but for different reasons. To prove that he is just an average QB that doesn't have (whatever it takes) to make the throws in the most critical situations, and win there. 

I honestly don't dislike the guy. I've met him twice, once with his wife and kids and he's a good down to earth person that takes playing football into perspective. 

All of my malice (what i've heaped on him lately) is due to fans that can't see he's not the guy to take this team through the playoffs and compete for a SB, and continue to rush to his defense with a mountain of excuses. And i'm quite tired of seeing him run out there game after game to do juuuuust enough so those fans (and the coaching staff, to my horror) think that he's right on the cusp of getting over the top. It's not going to happen, anywhere. Write that down for posterity (as far as predictions go).

Eight years and 5 games and he has top 10 numbers (yards, tds, gwd, etc) gained mostly with an elite defense, an adequate running game at least part of the time and good to great WRs to throw to, as well as a top 10 pass blocking line for his first 5 years. 

His team has failed just as hard, in the playoffs especially, but he's done nothing to overcome it and get past the 1st round of the playoffs while he had the talent around him. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-12-2019, 01:05 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: That isn't what is happening.

Of course when talking about the Bengals we have to talk about Dalton.

When talking about the perceived top QBs in the league, Mahomes is at the top of the list.

No one is actually comparing them.  Why do many posters on here jump to this conclusion every time a thread mentions 2 QBs?

I have been very clear that you can't compare QBs so easily.  Especially a pocket passer like Dalton and a Scrambling passer like Mahomes.  

Hell if you actually read and understood my post you can see that I am specifically talking about the different styles of QB and why I prefer the pocket passers over the scramblers.

The thing is, you're sticking to the old ways. That's not the NFL anymore. More and more athletic DEs come into the league and defenses build pressure packages to disrupt pocket passers. You absolutely need a mobile QB these days that can extend plays and drives with his feet as well as his arm. The Bengals don't have a mobile QB. 

[J24]

(10-12-2019, 01:31 PM)Whatever Wrote: 1.QB's get overdrafted every year due to the importance of the position group.  If you think a guy is a franchise QB, then he's worth a top 5 pick.  If you don't think there's a franchise QB in this class, that's a whole different discussion.

2.You have to play the odds.  There are much better odds that you can get a quality or even All Pro caliber player at any other position group than QB outside of the Top 10.  That's why it doesn't make sense to go T or whatever and hope a QB falls to us.  QB isn't a position you play chicken with.

4.It's hard to say.  However, we do know that this franchise hasn't been able to surround an average QB with enough talent to win playoff games and championships.

1.) And it's a stupid reason to overdraft just because every other team is doing it.

2.) Disagree it's the same odds as any other position outside of RB.

4.) I would say those teams outside of 2014 were talented enough to win in the playoffs.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-12-2019, 01:59 PM)Whatever Wrote: Foles and Flacco are fair examples.  Eli wasn't considered mediocre when he won his rings.  It's what's happened afterwards that makes people think he's currently mediocre.  However, for the last decade plus it's been mostly elite QB's like Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, etc.  

I'm not going to get into leadership stuff because I'm not in the locker room.  Frankly, different people respond to different types of leadership and you honestly need guys with different styles throughout your roster.  He has accuracy issues, especially ball placement issues.  He has issues driving the ball in high wind and in rain.  He can't make a lot of throws if he gets moved off his spot and can't get reset.  

Andy had rosters that were at least solid at every position group for several years. 

It's simple. As average/just above average as Foles, Flacco and Eli are/were, they "got hot" and made the throws necessary in the playoffs and SB to win.

Who gives a shit about pregame speeches...make the throws when you need to. 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-12-2019, 02:46 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm with you on wanting to see Dalton go to a good team but for different reasons. To prove that he is just an average QB that doesn't have (whatever it takes) to make the throws in the most critical situations, and win there. 

I honestly don't dislike the guy. I've met him twice, once with his wife and kids and he's a good down to earth person that takes playing football into perspective. 

All of my malice (what i've heaped on him lately) is due to fans that can't see he's not the guy to take this team through the playoffs and compete for a SB, and continue to rush to his defense with a mountain of excuses. And i'm quite tired of seeing him run out there game after game to do juuuuust enough so those fans (and the coaching staff, to my horror) think that he's right on the cusp of getting over the top. It's not going to happen, anywhere. Write that down for posterity (as far as predictions go).

Eight years and 5 games and he has top 10 numbers (yards, tds, gwd, etc) gained mostly with an elite defense, an adequate running game at least part of the time and good to great WRs to throw to, as well as a top 10 pass blocking line for his first 5 years. 

His team has failed just as hard, in the playoffs especially, but he's done nothing to overcome it and get past the 1st round of the playoffs while he had the talent around him. 

Quick question... you and I have beaten this to death, I know your stance, you know mine, so no need to keep going on about it.

Do you honestly think that Dalton doesn't win in '15?  The one year he had a decent OLine (Bodine was the only real weakness).  Green, Jones and Sanu at WR.  Eifert stayed healthy.  Bernard and Hill were considered a dual RB threat. 

It is even possible had he not been freakishly injured, that we have a playoff bye and the Steelers don't even qualify.

(When I say win, I don't mean SB, but I do mean a playoff game)