How does this get fixed - realistically

[THE PISTONS]

(10-16-2019, 03:05 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually the LB situation is due at least in part to our wacky 2 LB alignment which makes the edges a gold mine and if they spread to cover the edges then the middle is empty. Put another real OLB out there with Vigil and put Brown in his natural MIKE position and the results will be rather a lot better. 

For the OL we just need to admit the talent is not there in at least 2 if not 4 of the 5 spots. And until we can fix it we need to ditch the overly complex and reactive zone blocking scheme and use simple directional drive blocking. Shades of 2017 when after Lazor got Piano Man overruled and the blocking changed to directional the blocking dramatically improved. 

Correct. Are our LB's great? No.

But, putting them in a 2 LB alignment is terrible for them.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-16-2019, 03:05 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually the LB situation is due at least in part to our wacky 2 LB alignment which makes the edges a gold mine and if they spread to cover the edges then the middle is empty. Put another real OLB out there with Vigil and put Brown in his natural MIKE position and the results will be rather a lot better. 

For the OL we just need to admit the talent is not there in at least 2 if not 4 of the 5 spots. And until we can fix it we need to ditch the overly complex and reactive zone blocking scheme and use simple directional drive blocking. Shades of 2017 when after Lazor got Piano Man overruled and the blocking changed to directional the blocking dramatically improved. 

You're exactly right joe. I didn't watch a lot of the game Sunday, but I thought I saw Pratt, Brown, and Vigil on the field at the same time in passing. I think, well I know, that's what I'd try to play with moving forward. Did I see that correctly?

As for the line, we're playing with backups, with some of our starters being backup level. Yikes!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-16-2019, 03:17 PM)samhain Wrote: My answer is that you do for ZT what you did for Marvin in year 1.  Let him sign 3 starter caliber FAs.  Let some established guys go.  Be more aggressive in personnel acquisition.  

You can still look to build thought the draft.  I just feel like we're getting to the point where the holes on the roster are too numerous to fill with picks.  It would take 3 years to become viable through that plan.

If not longer.....

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-16-2019, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Find new starters at the following positions (in priority order):

Offense:
- LT/LG (Reserve Williams for the other)
- RT
- QB
- Future WR1
- RG (after LT, LG, and RT get resolved)
- TE

Defense:
- 2 LBs
- 1 DL
- 2 CBs (one outside, one slot)
- S

ST:
- K

That's 13 positions. You can't realistically expect anyone drafted after 4th round to become a good position player, so that's potentially 3 drafts worth if you only focus on draft. You're looking at 2022 being the earliest the team would become a true contender if the Bengals hit on every draft pick through the first 4 rounds over the next few years.

If the Bengals want to become a true contender before 2022, they need to participate in FA more than getting B-to-C-level veterans.

It's either that or actually get coaches in that can develop late-round talent well on a consistent basis.

The good news is that you can draft a good kicker outside of the first four rounds

I'd also suggest re-signing Dennard as slot corner. He's serviceable and should be affordable.

That would get us down to 11 positions.

Green, Dalton and Ross have trade/compensatory pick value, so that may get a further 3 picks. That would then be 11 picks over 2 drafts to fill 11 holes.

A few solid veterans in free agency, some reclamation projects on former high picks who were no longer fits after scheme changes and maybe some fringe players already on the roster (Darius Phillips/Brandon Wilson/Renell Wren/Fred Johnson/Josh Topou/Michael Jordan/Andrew Brown/Drew Sample) or waiver claims breaking through would allow some flexibility for the inevitable misses - and the rebuild could be done in as little as 2 years.

That may sound optimistic but it is doable: in 2011-2012 over two drafts we picked up 8 starters: Green, Dalton, Boling, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Marvin Jones, Iloka plus Dunlap and Atkins from the 2010 draft took big steps forwards (we're only in week 6 and Dunlap didn't make his first tackle until Week 7 of his rookie season; Atkins only made one start his rookie year, in Wk 14). The 2011-12 draft haul was boosted by picking top 5 that first year and from trading a former top 5 overall pick and a first round bust but we could be doing that here as well.

[THE PISTONS]

What if "Rams-style" only works if you're making moves like the Rams? https://t.co/grD41jY4cR

— JG (@JoeGoodberry) October 15, 2019

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[*PhilHos*]

(10-16-2019, 03:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Realistically? It doesn't.

Short of the NFL forcing them to sell the team or a plane crash, it will continue to be what it's been. I don't think Katie/Troy are the salvation to the Mike Brown Bengals. Besides, we all know Mike Brown is going to live another 20-30 years just to spite Bengals fans.

Maybe they move the team after the lease expires, and then the Jaguars or Buccaneers move in.

"This is Willard Scott the Third and I'm here with Mike Brown on his 126th birthday! Hey, Mike, how you feelin'?"

"DRAFT A QB!"

"What?"

"WHERE'S MARVIN? MY DIAPER NEEDS A CHANGIN'! LOVE THAT GOLDSTAR CHILI!"

"I'm sorry; I think we need to go back to the studio"

"I REALLY AM TRYING TO WIN GAMES! HONEST! OOP. JUST SHIT MYSELF AGAIN."

[*PhilHos*]

(10-16-2019, 03:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:

What if "Rams-style" only works if you're making moves like the Rams? https://t.co/grD41jY4cR

— JG (@JoeGoodberry) October 15, 2019

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's like their 3rd trade in the last 2 days, isn't it?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-16-2019, 03:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: "This is Willard Scott the Third and I'm here with Mike Brown on his 126th birthday! Hey, Mike, how you feelin'?"

"DRAFT A QB!"

"What?"

"WHERE'S MARVIN? MY DIAPER NEEDS A CHANGIN'! LOVE THAT GOLDSTAR CHILI!"

"I'm sorry; I think we need to go back to the studio"

"I REALLY AM TRYING TO WIN GAMES! HONEST! OOP. JUST SHIT MYSELF AGAIN."

Interestingly, I think some of their hesitation to make moves like move away from Dalton could be because of all the bad QB's they drafted before.

Just like they did actually sign free agents like Antonio Bryant and got burned by medicals so they then seemed to stop doing that.

Most GM's don't reign for some 30 years...especially with this poor track record. But, a mistake 20 years ago burns enough that they try to avoid it. Thus they keep Marvin so long past when he became stale.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-16-2019, 03:42 PM)PhilHos Wrote: That's like their 3rd trade in the last 2 days, isn't it?

Atleast. Interesting Corbett was I think the 33rd pick of the draft a couple years ago and they got him for a late pick.

That's likely the market value for Price.

[Circleville Guy]

(10-16-2019, 03:05 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually the LB situation is due at least in part to our wacky 2 LB alignment which makes the edges a gold mine and if they spread to cover the edges then the middle is empty. Put another real OLB out there with Vigil and put Brown in his natural MIKE position and the results will be rather a lot better. 

For the OL we just need to admit the talent is not there in at least 2 if not 4 of the 5 spots. And until we can fix it we need to ditch the overly complex and reactive zone blocking scheme and use simple directional drive blocking. Shades of 2017 when after Lazor got Piano Man overruled and the blocking changed to directional the blocking dramatically improved. 

Then maybe it’s not possible to evaluate them accurately but I’m not prepared to say they’re decent LB’s.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-16-2019, 03:47 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Then maybe it’s not possible to evaluate them accurately but I’m not prepared to say they’re decent LB’s.

They're......adequate. Leaving two of them out there to cover sideline to sideline exacerbates the problem.

[hotweales]

You are correct!

I really believe they needed to start the rebuild 3 years ago. Too many spots lacking and players that were on expiring contracts, but they continued with a similar roster. Now we have holes and better players beyond their prime. 

It is looking a little bleak.

Excellent reply Ocho

[grampahol]

The Bengals have a crystal clear plan in place. Tell fans to purchase Bengals emblazoned umbrellas and pray for rain. 
You didn't know this? 

[Catmandude123]

(10-16-2019, 01:19 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Pretty much this.
I would take 2nd rounds for Geno and AJ and 3rd+5th rounders for Dalton.  

Two second rounders for an aging tackle. Do you think other teams value our teams players for what they have done years ago? We are the only one stupid enough to do these kind of things. With his contract and recent film of his play you would be hard pressed to find a team to take him off our hands for free.

[fredtoast]

(10-16-2019, 03:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Just like they did actually sign free agents like Antonio Bryant and got burned by medicals so they then seemed to stop doing that.

Uh, what?

The very next year they rebuilt the defense by signing three new starters in free agency.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-16-2019, 04:33 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Two second rounders for an aging tackle. Do you think other teams value our teams players for what they have done years ago? We are the only one stupid enough to do these kind of things. With his contract and recent film of his play you would be hard pressed to find a team to take him off our hands for free.

I submitted it by phone and google voice sucks.  I would take a single 2nd rounder for Geno and a single 2nd rounder for Green.  If a contender has injuries and want a pro-bowl player, those are the best the Bengals can offer.  Nevertheless, I think the Bengals will not do anything because that is what the Bengals tend to do is stay to the course.   

[*ochocincos*]

(10-16-2019, 03:38 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: The good news is that you can draft a good kicker outside of the first four rounds

I'd also suggest re-signing Dennard as slot corner. He's serviceable and should be affordable.

That would get us down to 11 positions.

Green, Dalton and Ross have trade/compensatory pick value, so that may get a further 3 picks. That would then be 11 picks over 2 drafts to fill 11 holes.

A few solid veterans in free agency, some reclamation projects on former high picks who were no longer fits after scheme changes and maybe some fringe players already on the roster (Darius Phillips/Brandon Wilson/Renell Wren/Fred Johnson/Josh Topou/Michael Jordan/Andrew Brown/Drew Sample) or waiver claims breaking through would allow some flexibility for the inevitable misses - and the rebuild could be done in as little as 2 years.

That may sound optimistic but it is doable: in 2011-2012 over two drafts we picked up 8 starters: Green, Dalton, Boling, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Marvin Jones, Iloka plus Dunlap and Atkins from the 2010 draft took big steps forwards (we're only in week 6 and Dunlap didn't make his first tackle until Week 7 of his rookie season; Atkins only made one start his rookie year, in Wk 14). The 2011-12 draft haul was boosted by picking top 5 that first year and from trading a former top 5 overall pick and a first round bust but we could be doing that here as well.

Who were the OC and DC in 2011-2012? Jay Gruden and Mike Zimmer.
Ever since they left, the Bengals have not gotten many good players from the draft.

To your point, yes it's possible but not likely with the current staff.
They need to get Gruden back as OC (or some other proven OC) and get a proven, respectable DC.

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-16-2019, 03:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Interestingly, I think some of their hesitation to make moves like move away from Dalton could be because of all the bad QB's they drafted before.

Just like they did actually sign free agents like Antonio Bryant and got burned by medicals so they then seemed to stop doing that.

Most GM's don't reign for some 30 years...especially with this poor track record. But, a mistake 20 years ago burns enough that they try to avoid it. Thus they keep Marvin so long past when he became stale.

That is a good point.  But watching Burrow, he looks amazing against some of the best college competition.  I cannot wait to see Bama play LSU.  

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-16-2019, 04:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Who were the OC and DC in 2011-2012? Jay Gruden and Mike Zimmer.
Ever since they left, the Bengals have not gotten many good players from the draft.

To your point, yes it's possible but not likely with the current staff.
They need to get Gruden back as OC (or some other proven OC) and get a proven, respectable DC.

Because of their scouting ability or their play calling ability?

[MEBengalsFan]

I keep seeing post after post after post about how all of this is Mike Brown's fault. The same type of thinking can be applied to the failures of any product that a company delivers on when the CEO isn't the one in the plant building the product. Mike Brown may have his hand in the pot but he isn't the one trying to mix all the ingredients together to create something worth wild for us as fans to taste. That is on the coaches and players that are part of the Bengals organization.

As I sit here wondering how this thing can get fixed my answer is next year. Not because I want that to be the answer but it is due from the fact that so many good players are injured, on IR or have been on PUP. The fact that ZT is still in his learning period making him and his decision making more prone to mistakes.

The lack of a an experienced OC and DC on the team; this means more mistakes given the lack of experience. Lack of time to truly evaluate players, draft prospects, etc... The current coaching staff also doesn't have years of being in their current roles working together to form that level of confidence and trust to be unified and ensure success for the team immediately, though long term we may see different results.

The good news I keep seeing is that the players are playing hard still, not quitting (like prior years) and this has made for some close games, even though the team is 0-6. If the team can get its first win and continue to win some games this year next year the coaching staff will have time to actually evaluate players, draft prospects, etc...

At this point for me it is about the waiting game.

I know many want FA to come in and help the Bengals win now. But how did the Glenn, Brown, TO, etc... signing work out for the team? Most of the time FA don't live up to the hype so I'm more looking forward to the draft and the current younger players on the roster developing and improving and making enough of an impact now to help the team out next season.

I have plenty of patience so I can sit and wait.