How does this get fixed - realistically

[MEBengalsFan]

(10-16-2019, 08:02 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I dunno.  Maybe they need to improve their practices at signing Free Agents.

Just because they don't do it well doesn't mean Free Agency doesn't work or help an NFL team.

Free agents have improved and helped other teams numerous times.

Sure.  We all want draft picks to step in and be contributors but as you can see that doesn't always happen.

You just can't write off Free Agency because of Glenn, Brown, or others.

They absolutely need it.  

Please tell me which team in today's Free Agency era of football has won a super bowl bringing in multiple free agents? 

The teams that have won the SB that used the Draft are PATS, Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks, Giants, Saints, RAMS, Colts, etc... and if you state Broncos as a team that used the FA; you are mistaken as Peyton was not playing most of the year when they went to the Super Bowl because he was bench for bad play; though he did show up when his number was called and you should expect that from a pro like Peyton. 

Teams are not built from FA; teams are built using the draft. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-16-2019, 12:36 PM)hotweales Wrote: Realistically Mike Brown is not going to step down, or fire any family!
Duke Tobin is not going anywhere!
Zac can not be measured as a Coach by what I see on the field!

How does it get fixed considering what we know about how the Bengals operate?

I love AJ Green, but will he add enough for us to win games? Can we win playoff games before he is done with football?
Can we get enough for him to be traded? Will we resign him?
Same questions really about Atkins and Dunlap?

Is Andy Dalton good enough at QB? I doubt the Bengals should pay him another contract.

Linebackers - really where should the team go with this? Pratt did not look good Sunday and we know how the rest of the group is.

Cornerback play, can they hold up with better QB pressure?

Really where do we go from here?

Will Zac play Finley at some point this season? Can he be an NFL starter? Moving money from QB to other positions may help?

It appears that the team has needs in so many areas that it is unlikely to be fixed by next season.

What positions do you feel they will try to address in the draft? Who will they target? Is Tua really the best QB coming out? He plays for a team that has so much talent, does it make him look better than what he is?

Why did they extend Gio?

I would be surprised if Mike Brown trades any players for draft picks. I think it would be wise, but not usually how they operate.

If a first rounder is offered for AJ - I pull the trigger!
Some rumors that there is interest in Eifert - Make the trade!
One more year on Dalton's contract and he is UFA - get something for him! I don't feel Andy is the problem, but he contributes. He makes enough mistakes that can cost games and he will not elevate the team. Is he worth 17.5 Million next year with all the other holes - NO
Cut Dunlap - need the money


Some pretty good OT in this draft
CB pretty good in this draft
QB pretty good in this draft
DE/Dt also pretty good

I feel like the following will happen!
If offered a first round pick for AJ, they will make this trade. Even the Brown's can't screw that up.
Eifert will not go as no team will offer much, but a 4th or 5th would force them to pull the trigger
Finley plays at some point this season. Maybe 2 or 3 games. He does not play well enough for them to cut Andy. They will draft a QB in first round and he will sit behind Andy next year. Andy will leave the following year as a UFA.
They will once again sign some cast offs or older guys to fill holes
We will win 5 or 6 games next year!

What say you Board. How does this get fixed?
Just looking for some opinions

What I would do - even though most of you don't care -  

Trade AJ - get what you can - First rounder would be nice, but 2nd and 3rd, or 2nd and 4th would be a go.
Trade Eifert - Take whatever picks you can get - you should not resign him
Try to use Dunlap, Atkins, Kirkpatrick, Dalton or any asset you can get something for in draft day trades.
Draft the trenches - O-line and D-line is what makes us not competitive. Hell Jacoby is winning in Indy with a good line.
I would again not go after free agents yet. Need another year to improve - but the following season you need to add a couple impact guys.
We look Old and Slow on the field - have to get younger - Give Zac Taylor a 2 year window after this season. If he is not the answer gone after his 3rd year.

What say you board? How does this get fixed? What is the answer?





LB a little weak in draft

Free agency allows teams to rebound much quicker these days. 

If the Bengals did it right, they could be playoff contenders next year. 

But they won't "do it right" (my terminology for doing it my way :) ). 

They will stick with their plan and i don't really see a winning season next year either, doing it their way. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-16-2019, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Find new starters at the following positions (in priority order):

Offense:
- LT/LG (Reserve Williams for the other)
- RT
- QB
- Future WR1
- RG (after LT, LG, and RT get resolved)
- TE

Defense:
- 2 LBs
- 1 DL
- 2 CBs (one outside, one slot)
- S

ST:
- K

That's 13 positions. You can't realistically expect anyone drafted after 4th round to become a good position player, so that's potentially 3 drafts worth if you only focus on draft. You're looking at 2022 being the earliest the team would become a true contender if the Bengals hit on every draft pick through the first 4 rounds over the next few years.

If the Bengals want to become a true contender before 2022, they need to participate in FA more than getting B-to-C-level veterans.

It's either that or actually get coaches in that can develop late-round talent well on a consistent basis.

It's going to take FA plus getting another 1st round pick and some 2 or 3's, which means trades. 

The Bengals have really done neither (to the extent they need to) but it would be a very nice surprise if they did since they have trended toward a more "current" FA strategy the last couple years. It would be a pretty big jump though. Bigger than the jumps they've made in the past. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-16-2019, 01:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals Management's Plan to Fix the Team:

1 ) Draft
2 ) Another year of coaching from ZT's staff
3 ) Health
4 ) 2 or 3 bargain bin free agents

The sad/annoying/frustrating thing about the truth of the matter is; they're not going to do it anything like a fan would. 

I'm certain they don't think Dalton is done. I'm certain they believe that injuries have been the main cause of his performance this year. I'm certain they fully believe that with AJ and a line closer to what they envisioned this training camp--they can slant the draft towards the defense this coming year and they will be back to contenders again next year. They're not going to move Dalton one single day before his contract expires and if in any way he's able to play at a higher level, they will try again to get him at a team friendly deal (which they believe would be fair to him as well) and they're not going to deal AJ; in both cases because of the type of people they are and the fact they've helped contribute to the teams from '11-'16. 

I'm certain that's what they think and i'm certain that's where they're wrong. 

[Catmandude123]

(10-17-2019, 03:27 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Please tell me which team in today's Free Agency era of football has won a super bowl bringing in multiple free agents? 

The teams that have won the SB that used the Draft are PATS, Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks, Giants, Saints, RAMS, Colts, etc...  

Teams are not built from FA; teams are built using the draft. 

You just listed eight teams who won the SB by using free agents. You build a team with draft and supplement it with free agents from other teams. Mike Browns method of resigning aging vets to spend the needed cap money is a recipe for disaster. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2019, 03:52 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The sad/annoying/frustrating thing about the truth of the matter is; they're not going to do it anything like a fan would. 

I'm certain they don't think Dalton is done. I'm certain they believe that injuries have been the main cause of his performance this year. I'm certain they fully believe that with AJ and a line closer to what they envisioned this training camp--they can slant the draft towards the defense this coming year and they will be back to contenders again next year. They're not going to move Dalton one single day before his contract expires and if in any way he's able to play at a higher level, they will try again to get him at a team friendly deal (which they believe would be fair to him as well) and they're not going to deal AJ; in both cases because of the type of people they are and the fact they've helped contribute to the teams from '11-'16. 

I'm certain that's what they think and i'm certain that's where they're wrong. 

Precisely. Jokes on all of us.

They had virtually the same issues with the roster last year that they didn't address. Now due to an inept coaching staff, there are more issues this year.

Honestly, too many issues to address in 1 offseason even by a good GM.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2019, 03:56 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: You just listed eight teams who won the SB by using free agents. You build a team with draft and supplement it with free agents from other teams. Mike Browns method of resigning aging vets to spend the needed cap money is a recipe for disaster. 

By supplementing by free agency...I'd say more adequately filling holes. But, yes. You need to draft good in the NFL.

AND...we have the smallest scouting staff in the league! So...uh yeah...Is the draft our thing? Are our scouts 2 to 3x better than the Patriots scouts?

[J24]

1.) Trade anybody who you don't think will be on the team next season or have any interest to be on the team next season.
2.) Trade Andy if plan is too bring in new QB next off-season.
3.) Clean house there at least 7 players that need the axe
4.) Sign actual first day free Agents
5.) Trade top 3 pick for multiple first & second day picks if can

[BengalsRocker]

(10-17-2019, 03:56 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: You just listed eight teams who won the SB by using free agents. You build a team with draft and supplement it with free agents from other teams. Mike Browns method of resigning aging vets to spend the needed cap money is a recipe for disaster. 

Exactly.  It's a mix of both.  Damn people are stubborn.

You don't write off Free Agency just because you've whiffed.

Just as you accept that all draft picks even the top ones don't always pan out.

How many frickin' years are we gonna watch a lazy front office re-sign guys for too much and grab guys that aren't even playing NFL football.

It's not like they're breaking the bank on big name Free Agents year in and out.

Make a splash.  Sign one or two guys that can make immediate positive impacts.

Instead we get guys to try to replace holes and sometimes are worse than their predecessors.

If people can't see signing Free Agents(especially with a brand new coach who wants to revamp the team)...  I think you need help!

[BengalsRocker]

(10-17-2019, 04:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: By supplementing by free agency...I'd say more adequately filling holes. But, yes. You need to draft good in the NFL.

AND...we have the smallest scouting staff in the league! So...uh yeah...Is the draft our thing? Are our scouts 2 to 3x better than the Patriots scouts?

Yes both.

It's so obvious but everyone thinks we're gonna be the damn Redskins with signing crazy Free Agents.

It's that over-the-top logic of dismissing Free Agency that pisses me off.

I don't think I could even discuss football with someone who thinks it's an albatross for a team.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-17-2019, 04:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Precisely. Jokes on all of us.

They had virtually the same issues with the roster last year that they didn't address. Now due to an inept coaching staff, there are more issues this year.

Honestly, too many issues to address in 1 offseason even by a good GM.

I don't think they have too many issues if they did it the right way. With their way, yes, too many issues. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2019, 06:55 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Yes both.

It's so obvious but everyone thinks we're gonna be the damn Redskins with signing crazy Free Agents.

It's that over-the-top logic of dismissing Free Agency that pisses me off.

I don't think I could even discuss football with someone who thinks it's an albatross for a team.

Some people justify whatever the Bengals do...just like the Sample pick.

IF we signed a ton of free agents, they'd talk about how that's the best way to go.

It's a hard pill to swallow admitting that the team you follow is inept with little hope to improve.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2019, 10:04 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't think they have too many issues if they did it the right way. With their way, yes, too many issues. 

IF IF IF they hired several more capable scouts and put a decision making structure in place where a qualified GM made the calls...they could fix this thing in maybe 2 years. They could probably be 8-8 next year IF they had a great draft and signed 2-3 free agent upgrades.

Then, have another great draft and add a couple more free agents and playoffs.

They of course won't do this.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-17-2019, 11:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: IF IF IF they hired several more capable scouts and put a decision making structure in place where a qualified GM made the calls...they could fix this thing in maybe 2 years. They could probably be 8-8 next year IF they had a great draft and signed 2-3 free agent upgrades.

Then, have another great draft and add a couple more free agents and playoffs.

They of course won't do this.

True, they won't do it but the NFL structure--FA, high draft picks every round for teams with the worst record the year before--allows teams to turn it around quicker. 

(Here they come...) IF Jonah is healthy and at least average, IF they sign a guy like Conklin they could shore up the other T spot, IF they trade, and/or deal on draft day, they could get 2 1st round picks--say, QB and the OG from GA--or, if they play Finley and he proves to be capable, IF they sign a guy like Littleton and draft another LB high in rd2, IF they trim the fat (bad contracts) and sign the right FA currently on the team, IF they hit on the draft with those high picks in each round, IF they're healthy next year...

Etc, etc. 

There is a way to imrove the team substantially, next year. But it's a way the Bengals don't/haven't ascribed to in the past. Then there still remains the issue of the Oline coach, D coordinator and lack of O coordinator (Callahan, Gruden and a breathing stack of DNA that is an experienced D coordinator will/should be out there)...holey sheet, that's a lot of "IFs". 

There is a way to do it, for an organization that has employees with half a brain, a willingness and a want to actually be a playoff quality team. 

[BengalsRocker]

(10-18-2019, 01:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True, they won't do it but the NFL structure--FA, high draft picks every round for teams with the worst record the year before--allows teams to turn it around quicker. 

(Here they come...) IF Jonah is healthy and at least average, IF they sign a guy like Conklin they could shore up the other T spot, IF they trade, and/or deal on draft day, they could get 2 1st round picks--say, QB and the OG from GA--or, if they play Finley and he proves to be capable, IF they sign a guy like Littleton and draft another LB high in rd2, IF they trim the fat (bad contracts) and sign the right FA currently on the team, IF they hit on the draft with those high picks in each round, IF they're healthy next year...

Etc, etc. 

There is a way to imrove the team substantially, next year. But it's a way the Bengals don't/haven't ascribed to in the past. Then there still remains the issue of the Oline coach, D coordinator and lack of O coordinator (Callahan, Gruden and a breathing stack of DNA that is an experienced D coordinator will/should be out there)...holey sheet, that's a lot of "IFs". 

There is a way to do it, for an organization that has employees with half a brain, a willingness and a want to actually be a playoff quality team. 

So what you're really saying is with health, luck, and a competent front office it's possible?

Yikes!

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-17-2019, 11:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Some people justify whatever the Bengals do...just like the Sample pick.

IF we signed a ton of free agents, they'd talk about how that's the best way to go.

It's a hard pill to swallow admitting that the team you follow is inept with little hope to improve.

This is good point.

Those people are just the other side of the coin to those who criticize whatever the Bengals do.

If Patriots signed someone cheap, they'd talk about how it was a bargain but if the Bengals signed them then it would be the Bengals being cheap.

If another team signs someone for a lot of money they'd talk about how that's good teams do it, but if the Bengals sign someone for a lot of money then it's just the Bengals overpaying.

Their view point - whether it is homer or hater - depends entirely upon the team making the move.

Give me those who can see both light and shade every time.

[BengalsRocker]

I just want to know who in the world thought signing Hart to his contract was smart?

Yet Blackburn made an ass out of himself justifying it.

That speaks volumes to me about this franchise.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2019, 09:18 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I just want to know who in the world thought signing Hart to his contract was smart?

Yet Blackburn made an ass out of himself justifying it.

That speaks volumes to me about this franchise.

Signing Hart for insurance wasn't too bad of a move, bidding against themselves was a bad move.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2019, 01:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True, they won't do it but the NFL structure--FA, high draft picks every round for teams with the worst record the year before--allows teams to turn it around quicker. 

(Here they come...) IF Jonah is healthy and at least average, IF they sign a guy like Conklin they could shore up the other T spot, IF they trade, and/or deal on draft day, they could get 2 1st round picks--say, QB and the OG from GA--or, if they play Finley and he proves to be capable, IF they sign a guy like Littleton and draft another LB high in rd2, IF they trim the fat (bad contracts) and sign the right FA currently on the team, IF they hit on the draft with those high picks in each round, IF they're healthy next year...

Etc, etc. 

There is a way to imrove the team substantially, next year. But it's a way the Bengals don't/haven't ascribed to in the past. Then there still remains the issue of the Oline coach, D coordinator and lack of O coordinator (Callahan, Gruden and a breathing stack of DNA that is an experienced D coordinator will/should be out there)...holey sheet, that's a lot of "IFs". 

There is a way to do it, for an organization that has employees with half a brain, a willingness and a want to actually be a playoff quality team. 

Absolutely. But, teams like the Dolphins with A LOT of draft picks and a projected $100 million of cap space will be the active ones. Just watch.

The sad thing is we had some $50 million of cap space this past offseason, and arguably did very little when you look at what performances the guys we signed give us.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-16-2019, 01:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals Management's Plan to Fix the Team:

1 ) Draft
2 ) Another year of coaching from ZT's staff
3 ) Health
4 ) 2 or 3 bargain bin free agents

I think since this is the most realistic approach, we shouldn't hope or plan for a total overhaul but take this and try to tweak it.

Here's my try:

Draft- Trade first round pick for more picks.  They don't all have to be this year.  We should certainly end up in the top 3, and if Miami and Washington somehow both finish worse than the Bengals that is where we end up.  Realistically, I see us drafting 2nd.  You should get at least TWO first rounders and more for that spot.  We need a LOT of high draft picks.  One player won't transform this team.  

Coaching-  Yes, another year should be better, but if there is no improvement through the year on defense then they might need to go in a different direction.  Alex Grinch has transformed Oklahoma from sieve to solid defense in one year.  He is an Ohio native and is young, innovative, and aggressive.  I would hire him tomorrow as DC.  I would similarly get rid of Jim Turner.  Looks like a toxic asshole and we don't need any of that.  ZT will improve when his talent improves.  His line is bad to start and now half are gone injured.  I give him more chances.

Health is unpredictable, but depth is controllable.  The back end of the roster needs more young players to develop, not re-treads that are done.

Free Agency-  Here is where you make the biggest change.  If you are going to clearly move on from Dalton after next year (maybe next year if someone is desperate for a QB, but unlikely) then you will have the cap space to pay some big name, higher dollar FA.  I would avoid the drama of a me, me, me player like OBJ, but some big name defensive players at LB and Defensive line or safety would go a long way to raising the standard of play, getting the fans excited, and showing the NFL you mean business.  You might have to overpay, but we made that bed and we have to sleep in it.  

So, in summary, trade first pick for more picks. Get Alex Grinch as DC and pay him a lot.  Fire Jim Turner.  Go young at the back end of the roster and try to develop.  Get 3-4 top-tier FA before next year.  My desired position groups to target in order of preference would be: LB, S, Defensive End, Offensive line.