Glenn at odds with Bengals over concussion

[SunsetBengal]

(10-18-2019, 03:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It was just a short clip. It is possible he was in full pads doing full contact before or after the clip. Do players usually return to the locker to put their pads on?

If their is a clip of him doing full contact in full pads like game day then obviously my skepticism is wrong.

I don't know the definitive answer to that question, but I would lean toward "yes".  I say that because of the limitations on the amount of time allotted for fully padded, contact practices.  I would think that they might break it into segments like helmet and shorts for the first session, and then full gear for the "team" practice.

[fredtoast]

(10-18-2019, 03:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It was just a short clip. It is possible he was in full pads doing full contact before or after the clip. Do players usually return to the locker to put their pads on?

If their is a clip of him doing full contact in full pads like game day then obviously my skepticism is wrong.

I don't know what is happening.  I just don't see why the coach and the team would lie about something like this.  Why would Taylor say he was in full pads if he wasn't?  

Why would the team say he was cleared and then treat him like he was not?

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-18-2019, 02:44 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And the video of Wednesday’s practice showed that Glenn wasn’t in full pads. The video also showed him doing an individual blocking drill. The video did not show full practice in full pads simulating game play consistent with step 5 of the return to play protocol. The video showed activity consistent with step 4.

To the best of my knowledge, media is only allowed at the beginning, or right before practice. They don't allow them to film actual practice. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-18-2019, 03:38 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: To the best of my knowledge, media is only allowed at the beginning, or right before practice. They don't allow them to film actual practice. 

And, that makes perfect sense.  If they did allow news crews to film actual practice, teams would have spies watching opponents news footage. 

[THE PISTONS]

This is all a huge understanding. Some of our coaches have military backgrounds. I was watching a Navy Seal show where they'd put the guys in a desert with a shovel and give them a few hours to hide and then the instructors would come looking for them. The goal was not to be found.

Glenn just did a VERY GOOD job! Apparently they just found him Wednesday. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2019, 03:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know what is happening.  I just don't see why the coach and the team would lie about something like this.  Why would Taylor say he was in full pads if he wasn't?  

Why would the team say he was cleared and then treat him like he was not?

Why would the Bengals claim Odom had a strain instead of a broken foot or Braham had a bone bruise instead of a tibial plateau fracture or any of the other false information they have released?

Probably because he was answering a bunch of question at a press conference he probably didn’t want to be at and he was asked about two players and the medical staff may not have done a good job of communicating to him Glenn was cleared for drills or full contact.

Here’s another thing to remember: studies have shown patients forget 50% of what their doctors tell them immediately. Of the remaining 50% of information retained 20-30% is incorrect. Which means patients only retain about 35% of the information their doctors give them. So how much do you think Zac Taylor retains correctly after the medical staff briefs him on all the injuries?

About 35%.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2019, 04:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why would the Bengals claim Odom had a strain instead of a broken foot or Braham had a bone bruise instead of a tibial plateau fracture or any of the other false information they have released?

Probably because he was answering a bunch of question at a press conference he probably didn’t want to be at and he was asked about two players and the medical staff may not have done a good job of communicating to him Glenn was cleared for drills or full contact.

Here’s another thing to remember: studies have shown patients forget 50% of what their doctors tell them immediately. Of the remaining 50% of information retained 20-30% is incorrect. Which means patients only retain about 35% of the information their doctors give them. So how much do you think Zac Taylor retains correctly after the medical staff briefs him on all the injuries?

About 35%.

According to Jay Morrison of The Athletic, Glenn didn’t travel with the team, missed meetings and then practices:

Quote:What we do know is Glenn still is on the team, has been fined, did not travel to the Pittsburgh game against team wishes, missed meetings and — after Thursday — missed practices despite being fully cleared.

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2019/10/18/bengals-news-cordy-glenn-suspension-details/

[XsandOs]

(10-18-2019, 01:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Then there is no excuse for you not knowing a concussion is a TBI.

Also, PTSD is it something which can’t be confirmed by imaging. Are all the veterans with PTSD malingering, also?

I won't have further discussion with you. You obviously have an agenda but are ignorant of facts.

You need to turn to your leaders within the VA and ask why they image these patients.

Edit:
And similar to your irrelevant comment related to Migraines, your PTSD statement is a deflection and irrelevant.

Again, as I have stated earlier, in absence of subarachnoid hemorrhage, subdural hematoma or cortical contusions, then the diagnosis would be a concussion (general term) and dependent primarily on patient reported symptoms.

But you continue to argue a pointless agenda.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2019, 04:18 PM)XsandOs Wrote: I won't have further discussion with you. You obviously have an agenda but are ignorant of facts.

You need to turn to your leaders within the VA and ask why they image these patients.

Edit:
And similar to your irrelevant comment related to Migraines, your PTSD statement is a deflection and irrelevant.

Again, as I have stated earlier, in absence of subarachnoid hemorrhage, subdural hematoma or cortical contusions, then the diagnosis would be a concussion (general term) and dependent primarily on patient reported symptoms.

But you continue to argue a pointless agenda.

I don’t need to ask why people with severe head trauma need imaging when you suspect a subdural hematoma or subarachnoid hemorrhage. I also know why it isn’t need with mild head trauma that results in a concussion.

Migraines and PTSD are two conditions that cannot be confirmed or denied with imaging. Just like concussions. They are conditions that require the clinician to listen to their symptom. Many of these patients have been accused of drug seeking or malingering. Like you have accused Glenn of malingering. If you’re involved in the VA health system I hope you eventually learn to listen to your patients instead of dismissing their symptoms as malingering.

(10-17-2019, 10:16 PM)XsandOs Wrote: If the concussion is of degree of severity that requires 8 weeks of recovery, then it's not a concussion.

Then it would be a TBI - which can be determined by CT, MRI, SPECT, PET etc. and evidenced by hematoma, hemmorrhages or contusions.

All of that, not pretty much all, is incorrect. So I appreciate the advice on imaging soldiers blown up by IEDs, but I’m good. I don’t need any advice from someone who doesn’t know a concussion is the most common type of TBI which can’t be detected by imaging.

[Whatever]

(10-18-2019, 02:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Contact is sport specific that simulates game activity. For an offensive lineman, full contact would involve lining up across from a defensive lineman and blocking them at full speed the same as in a game. Can you show me video of Glenn in full pads blocking defensive lineman or linebackers at the second level also in full pads going full speed? Because if you can show me that, it proves I’m wrong.

Full contact has no bearing on the discussion.  Stage 4 specifically states the player may participate in non contact drills. 

Teams are only permitted a handful of practices in full pads during the season in the latest CBA.  

Which again, doesn't matter.  He was listed as a Full Participant in practice.  If he was not out of concussion protocol at that time, he would have to carry a Limited Participation designation.  He was not limited, so the league doctor cleared him.

Dude, seriously,give it up.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2019, 05:48 PM)Whatever Wrote: Full contact has no bearing on the discussion.  Stage 4 specifically states the player may participate in non contact drills. 

Teams are only permitted a handful of practices in full pads during the season in the latest CBA.  

Which again, doesn't matter.  He was listed as a Full Participant in practice.  If he was not out of concussion protocol at that time, he would have to carry a Limited Participation designation.  He was not limited, so the league doctor cleared him.

Dude, seriously,give it up.  

Players can’t clear stage 5 and play in a game without full contact. So it does have a bearing.

Yeah, looked like he was a full participant in non-contact drills. But, let’s assume you’re correct and he fully participated in full contact. Team doctors clear the player for contact in practice. Independent neurologist clears the player for contact in the game if they remain symptom free for 24 hours afterwards which would have been Thursday at the earliest.

[XsandOs]

(10-18-2019, 05:28 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Like you have accused Glenn of malingering. If you’re involved in the VA health system I hope you eventually learn to listen to your patients instead of dismissing their symptoms as malingering.


All of that, not pretty much all, is incorrect. So I appreciate the advice on imaging soldiers blown up by IEDs, but I’m good. I don’t need any advice from someone who doesn’t know a concussion is the most common type of TBI which can’t be detected by imaging.

I'll state for the final time so others understand. When a diagnosis is made there are a set of codes applied ranging from fracture of skull to contusions to edemas - from focal to diffuse. Then there is a general diagnosis code for concussion.

My opinion as a fan. My views on Glenn, as a fan, are mine. Your insistence that my opinion in this case is incorrect, baffles me. The only reason to be that defensive is that it's possible that you have previously been questioned related to your practice patterns.

Melodramatics don't add to a discussion. Using extreme case examples, to argue your point, doesn't prove a point. Battlefield injuries are evident.

That concussion cannot be detected via imaging or biomarkers, is the crux of my point; thus, potential for abuse - as are migraines.

However, it seems you are too smart for me.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2019, 08:47 PM)XsandOs Wrote: I'll state for the final time so others understand. When a diagnosis is made there are a set of codes applied ranging from fracture of skull to contusions to edemas - from focal to diffuse. Then there is a general diagnosis code for concussion.

ICD 10 codes? Really? Just so others understand those codes are used for reimbursement and epidemiology purposes. They have nothing to do with the work up, diagnosis, treatment, or prognosis of a medical condition. I don’t even know why you would introduce them into the discussion. But, just so others understand the real reason you and I give a shit about codes is because the insurance companies withhold payment to us without them.

Quote:My opinion as a fan. My views on Glenn, as a fan, are mine. Your insistence that my opinion in this case is incorrect, baffles me. The only reason to be that defensive is that it's possible that you have previously been questioned related to your practice patterns.

In the military, a service member can be charged and convicted of malingering. You can put them in jail, take their rank, take their money, confine them to quarters, assign them extra duty. You know what you need to prove malingering? Objective evidence. What do you got? By your own admission, a personal opinion. You’re not proving anyone is malingering with that. Especially given Glenn’s recovery isn’t outside of the realm of possibility. It wouldn’t be difficult for a defense lawyer to find a neurologist to discredit your opinion.

Quote:Melodramatics don't add to a discussion. Using extreme case examples, to argue your point, doesn't prove a point.

Extreme examples like migraines or PTSD? Yeah, those are so extreme. Who is being melodramatic now?

Quote:Battlefield injuries are evident.

Concussions are a battlefield injury. Are they evident? But if a concussion last two months it’s not a concussion, it’s a TBI? LMFAO. Okay, doc. How many battlefields have you been on?

Quote:That concussion cannot be detected via imaging or biomarkers, is the crux of my point; thus, potential for abuse - as are migraines.

Back pain, RPPS, plantar fasciitis, headaches, PTSD, abdominal pain, and more all have the potential for abuse.

Hell, how many patients a year go to the ED for chest pain and leave with a diagnosis of chest pain because they didn’t find anything? What’s the percentage of patients taken to surgery for appendicitis, but don’t have appendicitis?

Quote: However, it seems you are too smart for me.

Nope, not me. I don’t have the background or capacity to discuss this with someone who spent more time reading migraine literature alone than I’ve spent in school, yet somehow doesn’t know a concussion is the most common type of TBI. Remember?

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-18-2019, 07:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, looked like he was a full participant in non-contact drills.  

But that's not really a thing. Designations are FP, LP and DNP. From what you're thinking, he'd be listed as LP.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 05:34 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: But that's not really a thing. Designations are FP, LP and DNP. From what you're thinking, he'd be listed as LP.

Right, he was cleared to full participation, doesn't matter if the team was running contact drills or not, he was cleared for them. Bottom line. Then he asked to be cut, trying to clear 4 million and change to sit on his couch. He's a fat stack of shit, end of discussion.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-18-2019, 11:35 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah, when one of Marvin's guys speaks to the team after a tough loss, I wouldn't say there's a culture problem just yet. It could be that team is purging itself of pukes like Cordy Glenn. Sometimes you gotta walk through the darkness to get to the light.

.....but hell, let's just take Twitter and Deadspin as the gospel and make an already craptastic situation seem even worse than it is.

Everyone should read this over and over again.  I am not trying to say that the Bengals management have any such capabilities, but everyone on here would gladly accept what the Astros went through to get what they are now.

It is clear that it won't be Dalton, and likely not Green.  A part of me will always hurt over 2015.  That team was so much fun...in the beginning.  But they tried to take shortcuts.  Guys that were not reliable like Burfict and Adam Jones.  Incredible talents that always seemed to implode at the wrong moments.  I love Geno and Carlos, but I don't remember ever thinking that they were at their best in the biggest games.  The roster will have to turn over and I am not sure how many of the current coaches will survive.  I am sure they will give ZT every chance.  The odd choice at DC and offensive line coach, perhaps not so much.

However, if they start now with building the team from the trenches.  Get your offensive and defensive lines shored up in the next two drafts.  Combine that with some serious FAs at the LB, Safety, and perhaps offensive line positions and you can have a team that will be very competitive to surround a new, young QB.  I know everyone will throw the slow start of Dewayne Haskins at me, but that Justin Fields kid has incredible size, strength, arm, and mobility.  I want our next QB to be one that has wheels.  It seems much harder to build a tremendous offensive line (Only Oakland, Dallas, and New England have one) that it is to have a QB that makes defenses change their plan with their mobility:  Russell, Mahomees, Watson, Wentz, Murray are all this type of QB.  I would love to see Fields here in two years as he has the size and strength, but also outstanding mobility.  

And if the team addresses the lines BEFORE the skill positions this time, I think the likes of Boyd, Tate, Ross, etc. will show much more than they have already and whatever young QB gets the nod will also be in a much better position to be successful.  

[BengalsRocker]

(10-19-2019, 09:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Everyone should read this over and over again.  I am not trying to say that the Bengals management have any such capabilities, but everyone on here would gladly accept what the Astros went through to get what they are now.

It is clear that it won't be Dalton, and likely not Green.  A part of me will always hurt over 2015.  That team was so much fun...in the beginning.  But they tried to take shortcuts.  Guys that were not reliable like Burfict and Adam Jones.  Incredible talents that always seemed to implode at the wrong moments.  I love Geno and Carlos, but I don't remember ever thinking that they were at their best in the biggest games.  The roster will have to turn over and I am not sure how many of the current coaches will survive.  I am sure they will give ZT every chance.  The odd choice at DC and offensive line coach, perhaps not so much.

However, if they start now with building the team from the trenches.  Get your offensive and defensive lines shored up in the next two drafts.  Combine that with some serious FAs at the LB, Safety, and perhaps offensive line positions and you can have a team that will be very competitive to surround a new, young QB.  I know everyone will throw the slow start of Dewayne Haskins at me, but that Justin Fields kid has incredible size, strength, arm, and mobility.  I want our next QB to be one that has wheels.  It seems much harder to build a tremendous offensive line (Only Oakland, Dallas, and New England have one) that it is to have a QB that makes defenses change their plan with their mobility:  Russell, Mahomees, Watson, Wentz, Murray are all this type of QB.  I would love to see Fields here in two years as he has the size and strength, but also outstanding mobility.  

And if the team addresses the lines BEFORE the skill positions this time, I think the likes of Boyd, Tate, Ross, etc. will show much more than they have already and whatever young QB gets the nod will also be in a much better position to be successful.  

You're right.  Roster turnover is inevitable and should be expected.

It would be nice for our team to be like other NFL teams and retain a few top players who don't leave disgruntled.

I have always supported Dalton but there needs to come a time where the QB needs to change.

The problem with the team right now is none of the leaders really have any swagger or dominant personality attributes.

Instead with more recent roster we've always had guys like Pac-man or DreK being vocal who can't be taken seriously.

I'm not saying we need mouthy assholes as captains of the team, but it sure seems like we have more soldiers than generals in those positions.

Coaching can only do so much and once the players are on the field they need accountabilities by their captains/peers while playing.

Anyway I'm sure some posters won't agree with this philosophy but I believe it's true for a team that wants to win a championship.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 09:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Everyone should read this over and over again.  I am not trying to say that the Bengals management have any such capabilities, but everyone on here would gladly accept what the Astros went through to get what they are now.

It is clear that it won't be Dalton, and likely not Green.  A part of me will always hurt over 2015.  That team was so much fun...in the beginning.  But they tried to take shortcuts.  Guys that were not reliable like Burfict and Adam Jones.  Incredible talents that always seemed to implode at the wrong moments.  I love Geno and Carlos, but I don't remember ever thinking that they were at their best in the biggest games.  The roster will have to turn over and I am not sure how many of the current coaches will survive.  I am sure they will give ZT every chance.  The odd choice at DC and offensive line coach, perhaps not so much.

However, if they start now with building the team from the trenches.  Get your offensive and defensive lines shored up in the next two drafts.  Combine that with some serious FAs at the LB, Safety, and perhaps offensive line positions and you can have a team that will be very competitive to surround a new, young QB.  I know everyone will throw the slow start of Dewayne Haskins at me, but that Justin Fields kid has incredible size, strength, arm, and mobility.  I want our next QB to be one that has wheels.  It seems much harder to build a tremendous offensive line (Only Oakland, Dallas, and New England have one) that it is to have a QB that makes defenses change their plan with their mobility:  Russell, Mahomees, Watson, Wentz, Murray are all this type of QB.  I would love to see Fields here in two years as he has the size and strength, but also outstanding mobility.  

And if the team addresses the lines BEFORE the skill positions this time, I think the likes of Boyd, Tate, Ross, etc. will show much more than they have already and whatever young QB gets the nod will also be in a much better position to be successful.  

Agreed....and as I noted somewhere on here, we are basically totally ditching the old philosophy for a new one. Same as we did when Sam Wyche took over. This team was built for an antiquated AFCN approach. The new staff is looking at a modern west coast style of play. We don't have the horses for it across the roster. There are some pieces here and there, but not enough. The team is going to have to get aggressive in its personnel moves and fast. If the team still falls flat, then it's time to look at coaching. With as late of a start as we got assembling the staff due to the archaic rules of hiring coaches until they're done in the playoffs, we were behind the 8 ball before we even got started. A lot of people have lost sight of that little nugget.

EDIT: As a FSU fan, the same thing happened there, and last season looked brutal. This season started about the same, but over the last few weeks, the team has shown signs of pretty good improvement.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 10:02 AM)Wyche Wrote: Agreed....and as I noted somewhere on here, we are basically totally ditching the old philosophy for a new one. Same as we did when Sam Wyche took over. This team was built for an antiquated AFCN approach. The new staff is looking at a modern west coast style of play. We don't have the horses for it across the roster. There are some pieces here and there, but not enough. The team is going to have to get aggressive in its personnel moves and fast. If the team still falls flat, then it's time to look at coaching. With as late of a start as we got assembling the staff due to the archaic rules of hiring coaches until they're done in the playoffs, we were behind the 8 ball before we even got started. A lot of people have lost sight of that little nugget.

EDIT: As a FSU fan, the same thing happened there, and last season looked brutal. This season started about the same, but over the last few weeks, the team has shown signs of pretty good improvement.

Well, they've copied the Rams playbook atleast. I don't see them using the TE's and RB's in passing...which I think are issues. Throw Mixon the ball on more than screens. When you can't run, do short passes!

What I don't see is the Bengals scouting opponents, identifying weaknesses, and attacking them with custom gameplans. The 49ers and Steelers did that to us. We use the same gameplan every game. And maybe that worked for the Rams who have superior personnel.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-19-2019, 05:34 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: But that's not really a thing. Designations are FP, LP and DNP. From what you're thinking, he'd be listed as LP.

Full contact is step 5 of the progression. In order to be cleared for step 5, the player has to participate in step 4 and be symptom free for 24 hours. Wednesday was Glenn’s first day back at practice, right? If Wednesday was his first day back at practice and he had been cleared for step 5 then when did he pass step 4 so he could advance to step 5?