The Concept of Giving a Coach a Few Years to Build a Team

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-18-2019, 10:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Also, I saw the stats that some good coaches started 0-6...but did those coaches have all the responsibilities that ZT has?

*Cough* Sam Wyche *Cough*



Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins. This with an oline that currently features a 4th string LT that is actually a G, 3rd string LG, a good C, a decent RG, and our much maligned RT. WR1 is out, WR 3 is out, and it's a brand new offensive concept to boot. The defense? Wasn't it shitty last year too? What was done to address that in the off-season?

You kinda act like we went from Super Bowl to 0-6. This wasn't a good team to begin with. We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win.....and that was with a healthy offense. When the injuries mounted , the wheels fell off.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 01:02 AM)ah5 Wrote: If he won't relinquish his play calling duties let him go.  I hate head coaches that call plays, If you want to call plays stay an OC.

Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk

Some of the best teams in the league have head coaches calling plays....Philly, KC, LA Rams, NO, SF, just off the top of my head.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 12:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The whole talent/coaching yin/yang thing is tricky.

When coaches are bad, the drafting looks bad. And vice versa. Now coaches could be good and be dealt bad drafted players too.

I tend to think the issues here are more coaching than bad players...especially on defense. When you see guys PFF ratings drastically drop, it's coaching/scheme. And to those that say the LB's make the entire defense bad...the LB's were bad last year too, and the secondary and DLine ratings were much higher.

But, we don't have a LB on our roster capable of playing Nickle on a good team. It's crazy that the coaches don't switch our scheme to using 3 LB's and putt Pratt out there too.

They may actually be forced too now that Jackson and Kirkpatrick are out.

I agree about the 3 LBs...but, having said that, Pratt hasn't looked very good yet. We know Evans is a turd.....who knows, maybe they think the LBs are so bad, they're just playing the only 2 they feel are competent. 

[*pally*]

[quote='psychdoctor' pid='781047' dateline='157145036

The narrative that players have regressed is bona fide but one must ask why. Is it the coaching or is it some other variables like losing a dozen games in a row. It could be schemes which would indicate coaching by coordinators. But this O-Line has been porous for a while, the talent along the OL and backers just isn't there. Dalton is a year older and injuries appear convenient for some players. Makes me wonder.
[/quote]

Taking Glenn out of the mix, which other injuries this season have appeared convenient to you?

[Fullrock]

I don't know how you can truly evaluate any coach on this team. None of them have had a full deck to work with. I will say Taylor's play calling and lack of getting Mixon involved in the passing game has been disappointing, but the play calling would probably look better with AJ, John Ross, and Boyd on the field together and at least a serviceable O-line.

Hard to evaluate Lou when he's got the worst LB corps in the league who get run all over.

Hard to evaluate Turner when he's got Andre Smith and John Jerry playing LT and has had a 4th round rookie playing LG for a good part of the season.

Even the best coaches can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-18-2019, 10:59 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: The narrative that players have regressed is bona fide but one must ask why.  Is it the coaching or is it some other variables like losing a dozen games in a row.  It could be schemes which would indicate coaching by coordinators.  But this O-Line has been porous for a while, the talent along the OL and backers just isn't there.  Dalton is a year older and injuries appear convenient for some players.  Makes me wonder.

Right.

As it nearly always is it's not just one or two things, we've hit the perfect storm. We have a brand new HC that is going thru the learning process nearly all endure. We have brand new OC and DC with little to no experience in those positions. We have an Oline coach with a checkered past and at the very least questionable teaching methods.

We have an awful Oline that either 1. can't run block 2. Doesn't know how to run block 3. Struggle with assignments picking up the blitz.

We have a starting QB who struggles mightily against any pressure at all. We struggle to maintain drives because we can't run the ball. This team has zero margin for error.

We have a defense that has no sideline to sideline speed at LBer and we continue to play just two most often and we get roasted alive outside !

Now the injury/quit list is going thru the roof and I have no idea how they'll ever fix it, this season ?

[BengalsRocker]

[OswaldsLegacy]

Again with just focusing on the guys in front... the HC, DC and OC. Special Teams seems to be ignored though.

How about Deronte Jones? Secondary coach. He has Dre Kirkpatrick, Jackson and when healthy Dennard. He has many years experience and was here last year as well. He is just as responsible for the failures on defense as the DC and HC is.

Robert Livingston? Secondary coach. Has Bates and Williams and Fedj. 5 years experience all with Cincinnati, 4th year as a DB coach and 2nd with the safeties.

Bob Bicknell? WRs... how is it that outside of Green and Boyd none of the other WRs seem to improve?

Let's not just look at the top 3 guys. There are many that should be scrutinized.

[BengalsRocker]

(10-18-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

It still seems odd that for a fall-back plan that Brown, Blackburn, Tobin couldn't get a decent OC/DC who could be a possible interim HC if the Zac Taylor experiment doesn't work.

Either they really tried(like Del Rio)and failed or had enough confidence in ZT that it was a secondary notion.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 10:27 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Again with just focusing on the guys in front... the HC, DC and OC.  Special Teams seems to be ignored though.

How about Deronte Jones?  Secondary coach.  He has Dre Kirkpatrick, Jackson and when healthy Dennard.  He has many years experience and was here last year as well.  He is just as responsible for the failures on defense as the DC and HC is.

Robert Livingston?  Secondary coach.  Has Bates and Williams and Fedj.  5 years experience all with Cincinnati, 4th year as a DB coach and 2nd with the safeties.

Bob Bicknell?  WRs... how is it that outside of Green and Boyd none of the other WRs seem to improve?

Let's not just look at the top 3 guys.  There are many that should be scrutinized.

And that's a GREAT point...that you get. When you have basically all of your secondary players regress...it is coaching in that instance. They aren't all 34 year old veterans that can barely play. They're young guys that have shown great potential.

[BengalsRocker]

(10-18-2019, 10:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...I mean hopefully we see some improvement...but if not I think we have to.

Maybe we can get a new coach in that scenario that could salvage guys.

I feel like we need an OC that calls plays for sure. ZT doesn't have it. Let him focus on the big picture. Let an OC call plays.

I know on this board we'll have some posters saying that we're Taylor haters because of negative posts about the offense.

Yet we have knowledgeable guys like Steve Young on national TV echoing the same perceptions about ZT.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2019, 07:16 AM)Wyche Wrote: *Cough* Sam Wyche *Cough*



Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins. This with an oline that currently features a 4th string LT that is actually a G, 3rd string LG, a good C, a decent RG, and our much maligned RT. WR1 is out, WR 3 is out, and it's a brand new offensive concept to boot. The defense? Wasn't it shitty last year too? What was done to address that in the off-season?

You kinda act like we went from Super Bowl to 0-6. This wasn't a good team to begin with. We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win.....and that was with a healthy offense. When the injuries mounted , the wheels fell off.

And those are good points, that tie into this discussion in a different way: I remember reading that ZT was evaluating last years roster. I think we all get the offensive line issues with Glenn/Williams/Boling. (Although people were saying Boling was overrated in the offseason. And that Glenn wasn't a good Tackle. etc. But now they're HUGE losses.) Although, the Hart, Miller, Hopkins part of the line is 100% what they planned for in the offseason...so when 60% of the line is intact, we still can't run the ball.

But, Taylor and staff presumably signed off on bringing back Preston Brown. They designed the 2 LB scheme and put Brown and Vigil in it. They obviously targeted BW Webb as the Nickle CB that would essentially be used instead of a 3rd LB.

I feel like he is a bit young and naieve. A veteran coach would likely be like, I want to play Nickle. I need LB's with speed! Brown isn't that guy.

We can talk about how no one would succeed here because of personnel...but the coaching staff had atleast some hand in determining the personnel and they had total control over scheme.

It is interesting you dismiss last years early season wins as fools gold as you previously talked about how 4 of our losses were close. And I'd argue that a few of our losses this year are wins with better coaching staffs...better playcalls. Our staff uses the SAME gameplan EVERY game. Guys like Shannahan adjust each week to the opponent.

And the whole point of my thread isn't to say fire Taylor. But shouldn't we see improvement? IF we don't...if guys keep getting worse...we might be in worse shape next year. In that scenario, isn't a coach doing more damage than good?

[*Awful Llama*]

(10-18-2019, 10:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

To bad the Steelers spanking our little bottoms blue every year doesn't trigger him.

Please don't describe the Steeler games this way.  It almost makes them seem...um...enjoyable 

I believe you can't shame Mike into doing anything.   The signs, billboards, urinal cakes, etc. just make him dig in his heels. And to his way of thinking, with good reason.  His management strategy just steered this team to five consecutive playoff appearances (only a scant four years ago!), so if we can just get past this streak of bad luck and the injury bug, we'll be (insert old man, anachronistic saying here).

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-19-2019, 10:32 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I know on this board we'll have some posters saying that we're Taylor haters because of negative posts about the offense.

Yet we have knowledgeable guys like Steve Young on national TV echoing the same perceptions about ZT.

Yep,

He's seemed way more deer in the headlights calling plays than I ever dreamed he'd be.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 10:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And those are good points, that tie into this discussion in a different way: I remember reading that ZT was evaluating last years roster. I think we all get the offensive line issues with Glenn/Williams/Boling. (Although people were saying Boling was overrated in the offseason. And that Glenn wasn't a good Tackle. etc. But now they're HUGE losses.) Although, the Hart, Miller, Hopkins part of the line is 100% what they planned for in the offseason...so when 60% of the line is intact, we still can't run the ball.

But, Taylor and staff presumably signed off on bringing back Preston Brown. They designed the 2 LB scheme and put Brown and Vigil in it. They obviously targeted BW Webb as the Nickle CB that would essentially be used instead of a 3rd LB.

I feel like he is a bit young and naieve. A veteran coach would likely be like, I want to play Nickle. I need LB's with speed! Brown isn't that guy.

We can talk about how no one would succeed here because of personnel...but the coaching staff had atleast some hand in determining the personnel and they had total control over scheme.

It is interesting you dismiss last years early season wins as fools gold as you previously talked about how 4 of our losses were close. And I'd argue that a few of our losses this year are wins with better coaching staffs...better playcalls. Our staff uses the SAME gameplan EVERY game. Guys like Shannahan adjust each week to the opponent.

And the whole point of my thread isn't to say fire Taylor. But shouldn't we see improvement? IF we don't...if guys keep getting worse...we might be in worse shape next year. In that scenario, isn't a coach doing more damage than good?

I think you'll get a better idea of my thoughts on the game plan in the other thread where you mentioned that.... we're in agreement there, so I won't rehash it here.

As to last year's 4-1 start, I must admit I believed we were better than we actually were.

For the record, I'm not saying that NO ONE could succeed here. I'm sure there are some championship caliber coaches that could have a couple, if not more, wins by now. No question in my mind. That said, I expected the ceiling here to be 8-8 under a rookie HC with leftover scraps as subordinates after not being able to announce the hiring until February. Antiquated approach in FO, sketchy personnel with bad depth, and maybe misjudged talent on the coach's behalf. Then again, maybe the FO wanted an evaluation of the roster in his scheme before they went all hung ho purging the roster....you know, MB and all. I think it's the perfect shit storm for ushering in a new era with an inexperienced HC running the ship to boot. 

We have the same coaches on the back end of the defense where you point to the biggest regression, so that's a little odd to me.  

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-19-2019, 11:52 AM)Wyche Wrote: I think you'll get a better idea of my thoughts on the game plan in the other thread where you mentioned that.... we're in agreement there, so I won't rehash it here.

As to last year's 4-1 start, I must admit I believed we were better than we actually were.

For the record, I'm not saying that NO ONE could succeed here. I'm sure there are some championship caliber coaches that could have a couple, if not more, wins by now. No question in my mind. That said, I expected the ceiling here to be 8-8 under a rookie HC with leftover scraps as subordinates after not being able to announce the hiring until February. Antiquated approach in FO, sketchy personnel with bad depth, and maybe misjudged talent on the coach's behalf. Then again, maybe the FO wanted an evaluation of the roster in his scheme before they went all hung ho purging the roster....you know, MB and all. I think it's the perfect shit storm for ushering in a new era with an inexperienced HC running the ship to boot. 

We have the same coaches on the back end of the defense where you point to the biggest regression, so that's a little odd to me.  

I've said all along last years start was fools gold. The offense had like 2qtrs and a couple good drives in all those games and the rest of the time struggled, a lot. 

I know, I know you can say this about a bunch of games but we could easily have lost the Colts game and probably should have lost Dolphins game ! The D, as bad as it was won both of those games.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-19-2019, 12:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've said all along last years start was fools gold. The offense had like 2qtrs and a couple good drives in all those games and the rest of the time struggled, a lot. 

I know, I know you can say this about a bunch of games but we could easily have lost the Colts game and probably should have lost Dolphins game ! The D, as bad as it was won both of those games.

Right. I was wrongfully a bit more optimistic than that about that start last season than you were. Those 2 games, the defense bailed us out. The offense looked really good against Baltimore and in Atlanta, but then we found out the Atlanta defense wasn't that great. Also, the line was better, and AJ Green DOES make a big difference out there. Look who caught the game winner in ATL after all.

[Luvnit2]

I remember a lot of members saying ML was 100% the issue and a new HC will inspire this group and make them a lot better. Most predicting at least 7 or 8 wins versus the 6 in 2018.

That looks almost impossible now, but we will see.

The fact is ML took a 2 win team prior to his arrival and won 8 games. He let our best LB (Spikes ) walk because he did not want not be here. So, to date, ZT will not surpass ML year one results. Should they fire him? No, but is concerning.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-19-2019, 07:16 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: *Cough* Sam Wyche *Cough*



Look, we're not getting blown out either, save the SF and Pitt tilts. It's not like it's total disarray. In fact, a couple of games were a missed FG, an unlucky bounce, etc away from wins. This with an oline that currently features a 4th string LT that is actually a G, 3rd string LG, a good C, a decent RG, and our much maligned RT. WR1 is out, WR 3 is out, and it's a brand new offensive concept to boot. The defense? Wasn't it shitty last year too? What was done to address that in the off-season?

You kinda act like we went from Super Bowl to 0-6. This wasn't a good team to begin with. We struck fools gold at the beginning of last season, a fumble recovery in Indy saved a win, two fluke defensive plays against Miami provided a win.....and that was with a healthy offense. When the injuries mounted , the wheels fell off.

Of all the posts you’ve ever written on here, this might be the best. It’s absolutely true.

[samhain]

I don't think 0-6 or even 1-15 or 2-14 is neccessarily fireable. Not unless he just completely loses control of the players. I'm still firmly of the belief that he was set up to fail by ownership and to some extend by himself in hiring his buds to fill out the staff. He deserves a shot at a more inspired offseason.

However, I do believe that 0-16 is very fireable. Like, run him out of there after the last second in week 17 expires fireable.

A lost locker room and an abortion of a season call for it. Plus, you're likely looking at a new quarterback in that scenario. Do you want a guy that hasn't won 2 games going into a long-term commitment like that, or do you start over? I start over and let a new coach pick his guy. If you don't, and Taylor continues to flounder in 2020 (and it's probable if the family has one of their typical offseasons), you're grooming a top pick quarterback under an interim coach with a lost roster and nothing team culture. It's just another major setback in a long line.