Hart got Mad at Dalton on the Allen Sack

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 11:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We’ve also seen players come here and improve like Ced Benson, Reggie Nelson, Pacman, etc. We’ve produced perennial Pro Bowlers like Chad, AJ, Geno. To act like players can’t succeed here is not being truthful.

And the screen INT is absolutely inexcusable for a 9th year QB. If you “don’t even have time to look” then take a sack. What you don’t do is lob it up in the air like Stevie Wonder.

Benson got off the booze, he was a bonafide stud coming out of Texas that didn't have his head on straight as a youngster in Chicago. Pac Man was a GREAT player before he ever got here....I mean shutdown, and a helluva a return man. Those didn't improve, they got their heads on straight. Reggie is one that did....under Zimmer.  

Yep, he should've held on to it.....when you're 0-7 and no one is doing shit, you often take chances. Dalton alluded to it in his presser where he "didn't take the blame."

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 11:22 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We’ve also seen players come here and improve like Ced Benson, Reggie Nelson, Pacman, etc. We’ve produced perennial Pro Bowlers like Chad, AJ, Geno. To act like players can’t succeed here is not being truthful.

And the screen INT is absolutely inexcusable for a 9th year QB. If you “don’t even have time to look” then take a sack. What you don’t do is lob it up in the air like Stevie Wonder.

Oh....and one other thing. A 30 year GM should have won a goddamned playoff game by now.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 11:43 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Oh....and one other thing. A 30 year GM should have won a goddamned playoff game by now.

Who’s disputing that? Why can’t Mike Brown and Andy Dalton both suck?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 11:47 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Who’s disputing that? Why can’t Mike Brown and Andy Dalton both suck?

Mike Brown sucks....Dalton is a decent player. Palmer was a good player. One took his ball elsewhere and at least earned a bye and won a playoff game. The other took a team friendly deal to get pummeled into the turf for 3 years because his shitbag owner "doesn't value guards". We see this differently. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 11:53 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Mike Brown sucks....Dalton is a decent player. Palmer was a good player. One took his ball elsewhere and at least earned a bye and won a playoff game. The other took a team friendly deal to get pummeled into the turf for 3 years because his shitbag owner "doesn't value guards". We see this differently. 

Dalton was a decent player. 4 seasons ago. That’s a long time in NFL years. Time to move on.

I honestly can’t wait to not have to argue over the guy anymore if nothing else.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Also, as for “not valuing guards” the NYG traded for Zeitler and took Will Hernandez in the 2nd round and they still gave up 8 sacks last Sunday. OL play is down all over the league. It’s not just us.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(10-22-2019, 10:57 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Plenty of us “haters” did like Dalton at one point. The first thread I ever started on this board was about him being underrated. But year after year of bad play from your QB gets old fast. As does one excuse after another to try and let him off the hook.

It is not about being a Dalton hater so to speak. I dont hate the guy, I have just said (for many years) he is not capable of leading to team deep in the playoffs so IF the goal is to do that we need to move on. 

[fredtoast]

(10-22-2019, 11:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton was a decent player. 4 seasons ago. That’s a long time in NFL years. Time to move on.

Mixon sucks now also.  You ready to move on from him?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mixon sucks now also.  You ready to move on from him?

Go look at the thread Pistons just started about QB pressures. Then tell me who is playing at a larger disadvantage, the QB who’s one of the least pressured per drop back or the RB whose OL has shown they flat out can not run block. For either guy.

The pass protection has been fine lately. Enough with the excuses.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 11:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton was a decent player. 4 seasons ago. That’s a long time in NFL years. Time to move on.

I honestly can’t wait to not have to argue over the guy anymore if nothing else.

I'm not really arguing....I have stated many times, he's done here. I also wonder how he would have fared here had they kept a good line in front of him. He still played pretty good ball in '16, then Whit left after Zeitler, and things went South fast. Dalton is a guy that needs good blocking to have success. I would assume he took a team friendly deal to keep money around to protect him. Son of Paul dropped the ball again. His trajectory was looking pretty good until the end of 2016. To me, it seems pretty simple. Others view things differently, and that's ok. 

[fredtoast]

(10-22-2019, 12:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Go look at the thread Pistons just started about QB pressures. Then tell me who is playing at a larger disadvantage, the QB who’s one of the least pressured per drop back or the RB whose OL has shown they flat out can not run block. For either guy.

The pass protection has been fine lately. Enough with the excuses.

Dalton is getting rid of the ball faster than any QB in the league (2.31 sec) yet he is barely in the top 10 in fewest pressures.

The pass protection has not been fine.  Who was it said something about "watching the games" instead of just looking at some numbers?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 12:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Also, as for “not valuing guards” the NYG traded for Zeitler and took Will Hernandez in the 2nd round and they still gave up 8 sacks last Sunday. OL play is down all over the league. It’s not just us.

Not valuing guards came straight from Mikey's mouth though. Yes, it's down on a lot of teams, but the best teams block, and block well. NO is undefeated with Teddy Bridgewater because they block well, NE blocks well, and they have Brady. GB has improved their oline and are looking tough again after some subpar seasons even with Rodgers under center. It's kind of key to offensive success and consistency.

When everyone was bashing Palmer for wanting change, I backed Carson. Mike Brown is THE biggest problem with this team. We've blamed Palmer, Brat, Marvin, Dalton, now Zac, but truth is...Brown is a boat anchor for success.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 01:14 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I'm not really arguing....I have stated many times, he's done here. I also wonder how he would have fared here had they kept a good line in front of him. He still played pretty good ball in '16, then Whit left after Zeitler, and things went South fast. Dalton is a guy that needs good blocking to have success. I would assume he took a team friendly deal to keep money around to protect him. Son of Paul dropped the ball again. His trajectory was looking pretty good until the end of 2016. To me, it seems pretty simple. Others view things differently, and that's ok. 

He needs more than just a good OL to have success. He also needs really good weapons (AJ, MLJ, Eifert, Boyd), a good OC (Hue, Jay), a good defense (Zimmer), etc...

Basically he needs almost everything around him perfect. That’s a tall order.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 01:18 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Not valuing guards came straight from Mikey's mouth though. Yes, it's down on a lot of teams, but the best teams block, and block well. NO is undefeated with Teddy Bridgewater because they block well, NE blocks well, and they have Brady. GB has improved their oline and are looking tough again after some subpar seasons even with Rodgers under center. It's kind of key to offensive success and consistency.

When everyone was bashing Palmer for wanting change, I backed Carson. Mike Brown is THE biggest problem with this team. We've blamed Palmer, Brat, Marvin, Dalton, now Zac, but truth is...Brown is a boat anchor for success.

Yes, yes you did. A lot.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 01:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He needs more than just a good OL to have success. He also needs really good weapons (AJ, MLJ, Eifert, Boyd), a good OC (Hue, Jay), a good defense (Zimmer), etc...

Basically he needs almost everything around him perfect. That’s a tall order.

I'll have to disagree about everything being perfect. We made the playoffs in 2014 with a lot of injuries at key positions on offense. Eifert and Jones missed the year, AJ missed some time too....fantasy stats weren't great, but we went 10-6 and limped into Indy, he had 25 TDs, 5 rushing TDs, and a TD reception. What we did do that year, was block well.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2019, 01:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, yes you did. A lot.

Yep....and Bratkowski too. I think Marvin was a good coach that grew stale....but I also think he wasn't good enough to overcome Mike Brown. We've won 2 of our last 18 games, so it wasn't like we just fell off a cliff. One thing I've always done is give Marv credit for delivering us from the 90s....but for some reason our QB gets ZERO credit in what looks like the golden age under Mike Clownshoes. . 

That's where I take issue a bit.....

[fredtoast]

(10-22-2019, 01:21 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He needs more than just a good OL to have success. He also needs really good weapons (AJ, MLJ, Eifert, Boyd), a good OC (Hue, Jay), a good defense (Zimmer), etc...

Basically he needs almost everything around him perfect. That’s a tall order.

In 2011 Dalton's #2 WR was Jerome Simpson and he had no receiving threat from his RB (Benson).

In 2012 his #2 WR was Andrew Hawkins and he again had no receiving threat from his RB (Green-Ellis).

In 2016 AJ missed 6 and his #1 WR was Brandon LaFell.  Eifert also missed 8 games.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2019, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2011 Dalton's #2 WR was Jerome Simpson and he had no receiving threat from his RB (Benson).

In 2012 his #2 WR was Andrew Hawkins and he again had no receiving threat from his RB (Green-Ellis).

In 2016 AJ missed 6 and his #1 WR was Brandon LaFell.  Eifert also missed 8 games.

And he still won all those primetime and playoff games despite all that?? Ok...maybe I’ve been too harsh on him.

[fredtoast]

(10-22-2019, 01:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And he still won all those primetime and playoff games despite all that?? Ok...maybe I’ve been too harsh on him.

Now I am confused.

You were talking about when Dalton had success.  When was that?

But, yes, Dalton did win prime time games in both '12 and '16.  In the '16 win he had 296 yards and a 111 passer rating against a playoff team.

[*ochocincos*]

Dalton has never been good at stepping up in the pocket to avoid pressure. Probably due to all those years playing behind Russell Bodine!