Dalton-agent looked at options

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm not saying they were offered a 1st. What I'm saying is that, at best, they were ASKING for a 1st? That's assuming they even took phone calls in regards to trades.

My guess is they were willing to listen to offers and either rejected them outright or counter-offered with a ridiculous offer. Either way, they didn't even TRY (based on all the reports from yesterday).

Would you really want to move him for less then a 1st if we can get him healthy and show he is healthy and actually trade him for a 1st after the season? The biggest knock on him was him being hurt and not knowing what you were getting, we can actually increase his value by playing him. Again, lack of movement yesterday doesn't mean we can't move guys before the draft.

As to not trying, again I am not really buying that as it comes across as hyperbole in the reports. They said we aren't listening, but we aren't listening based on what they were willing to give. We have shown we will listen for the right offer, we moved Palmer when we said we wouldn't and we slid back in the first round for Cordy Glenn when that was something we just didn't do. Like every single other team with a star yesterday, we were only moving them if we were wow'ed and no one was wowing anyone yesterday.

[RunKijanaRun]

(10-30-2019, 01:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not sure what that has to do with anything other than just being mad that you are a fan here. As I keep explaining, NO ONE WAS TRADING, especially not at peak price. If we dumped Dalton for a 5th to the Bears yesterday are you happy now? People here had inflated views of what people were willing to pay for players but that wasn't based in reality. If we moved Dunlap for a 4th yesterday, eating his dead cap, are people looking around today smiling thinking we are all good now? No.

The off season is where you'll get better value because teams who had bad seasons will be buying not just a limited number of contenders. That is why all these teams who were rumored to be selling didn't sell, because the price wasn't right. Selling for the sake of selling doesn't make us better. 

Oh, I forgot. THE OFFSEASON is when the Bungles go out and makes themselves better.

Thx for the kewl reminder.

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:24 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Oh, I forgot. THE OFFSEASON is when the Bungles go out and makes themselves better.

Thx for the kewl reminder.

We haven't made an in season QB change in 17 years, I wouldn't be shocked by anything moving forward.

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2019, 02:23 PM)Au165 Wrote: Would you really want to move him for less then a 1st if we can get him healthy and show he is healthy and actually trade him for a 1st after the season? The biggest knock on him was him being hurt and not knowing what you were getting, we can actually increase his value by playing him. Again, lack of movement yesterday doesn't mean we can't move guys before the draft.

As to not trying, again I am not really buying that as it comes across as hyperbole in the reports. They said we aren't listening, but we aren't listening based on what they were willing to give. We have shown we will listen for the right offer, we moved Palmer when we said we wouldn't and we slid back in the first round for Cordy Glenn when that was something we just didn't do. Like every single other team with a star yesterday, we were only moving them if we were wow'ed and no one was wowing anyone yesterday.

The Palmer deal was a situation where everything fell into place, you can see via the McCarron non-deal that MB is a little too OK with just sitting around and asking for the moon or nothing when it comes to trades being worthy of his consideration. Someone had to flat-out die for us to get that deal for Palmer.

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The Palmer deal was a situation where everything fell into place, you can see via the McCarron non-deal that MB is a little too OK with just sitting around and asking for the moon or nothing when it comes to trades being worthy of his consideration.  Someone had to flat-out die for us to get that deal for Palmer.

McCaron was traded as far as our part, it is well documented the Browns jacked that up. 

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2019, 02:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: McCaron was traded as far as our part, it is well documented the Browns jacked that up. 

Are you the one I've gone round n round over this with?  We were offered a great deal for him and instead of taking it we decided to demand even more and it fell through.  If we take the original offer we don't have to sit on pins and needles hoping it gets done before the deadline, and that's even assuming the Browns didn't just come to their senses and realize trading more than a 2nd rounder for McCarron was absolutely insane and then just let the clock run out.

Not taking the initial offer for McCarron and asking for more as the clock ticked away was a gamble and it didn't pay off for us.  We didn't want the bird in the hand, we elected for the 2 in bush and the damn things flew away.  Oh well!

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-30-2019, 01:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not sure what that has to do with anything other than just being mad that you are a fan here. As I keep explaining, NO ONE WAS TRADING, especially not at peak price. If we dumped Dalton for a 5th to the Bears yesterday are you happy now? People here had inflated views of what people were willing to pay for players but that wasn't based in reality. If we moved Dunlap for a 4th yesterday, eating his dead cap, are people looking around today smiling thinking we are all good now? No.

The off season is where you'll get better value because teams who had bad seasons will be buying not just a limited number of contenders. That is why all these teams who were rumored to be selling didn't sell, because the price wasn't right. Selling for the sake of selling doesn't make us better. 

I am not mad at the lack of trading.  What I do find to be underhanded is that they waited for so long to announce to Dalton that he was benched. 

Teams will then come out with offers... maybe the 5th round pick, like you suggest.  The Bengals could then renegotiate and try to work up to a deal they like or just flat out say No.  The agent could then ask the Bengals what they are wanting and then see if any team would be willing to meet the demand.

Benching Dalton when they did was BS.  We won't "find out" anything about Finley than we did with Dalton.  Only that the OLine still sucks.  The running game is non-existent.  The defense will still give up the big play.  If we really want to see Finley in action, then bench Green as well.  Let us see what Finley does without Green.  Instead we get this fool's gold approach where we put Green out there with Finley.  

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you the one I've gone round n round over this with?  We were offered a great deal for him and instead of taking it we decided to demand even more and it fell through.  If we take the original offer we don't have to sit on pins and needles hoping it gets done before the deadline, and that's even assuming the Browns didn't just come to their senses and realize trading more than a 2nd rounder for McCarron was absolutely insane and then just let the clock run out.

Not taking the initial offer for McCarron and asking for more as the clock ticked away was a gamble and it didn't pay off for us.  We didn't want the bird in the hand, we elected for the 2 in bush and the damn things flew away.  Oh well!

We had a deal for a 2nd and 3rd, we sent in the trade to league office, Browns did not. They did things perfectly and the Browns botched it, there is nothing to go around and around with. Your position is complete and total hindsight and is not a realistic way of viewing negotiations. 

[fredtoast]

(10-30-2019, 01:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not sure what that has to do with anything other than just being mad that you are a fan here.

Careful, man.  You don't want to threaten a Bengal fan's victim card.  Things can't just be bad here.  They have to be worse than any team in history.  If anything contradicts their opinion (like the fact that only a very small minority of teams made any moves) then you are not allowed to even mention it.   

Basically the Bengals front office is the worst in the league for making no deals, but that argument does not apply to any other team. 

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:32 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I am not mad at the lack of trading.  What I do find to be underhanded is that they waited for so long to announce to Dalton that he was benched. 

Teams will then come out with offers... maybe the 5th round pick, like you suggest.  The Bengals could then renegotiate and try to work up to a deal they like or just flat out say No.  The agent could then ask the Bengals what they are wanting and then see if any team would be willing to meet the demand.

Benching Dalton when they did was BS.  We won't "find out" anything about Finley than we did with Dalton.  Only that the OLine still sucks.  The running game is non-existent.  The defense will still give up the big play.  If we really want to see Finley in action, then bench Green as well.  Let us see what Finley does without Green.  Instead we get this fool's gold approach where we put Green out there with Finley.  

We again don't really know if the Bengals didn't shop him behind the scenes. We know Dalton wasn't given heads up for his agent to, but again only one team (Bears) really had a need that is a contender this season and we don't know how their organization actually feels about their QB long term (we know what they should think). I'd say the team feels they can get better compensation in the off season when as many as 8 teams will be in the market for a QB.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-30-2019, 02:13 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm surprised Andy got upset.
He never showed that much emotion on the field

IDK, he slung his helmet into the bench at Shitsburgh after the 7th or 8th sack....and slung a ball at a ref. He's been pissed a while it seems. But you're right, not before this season.

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2019, 02:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: We had a deal for a 2nd and 3rd, we sent in the trade to league office, Browns did not. They did things perfectly and the Browns botched it, there is nothing to go around and around with. Your position is complete and total hindsight and is not a realistic way of viewing negotiations. 

It's not hindsight, I said at the time we were asking for way too much for a non-factor QB and that Mike Brown was using his invincibility as a means to ask for way too much and any GM who is actually going to be held accountable for his trades might slip off the hook.

Saying NO to a 2nd rounder for AJ McCarron is about the furthest thing I can think of from "doing things perfectly."  Once you turn down an offer for something you are culpable in any sort of blame should the deal fall apart.  Being able to blame it on someone else is merely damage control.  

In the world of business, as soon as you elect to turn down an offer and/or hold out for more you are officially accountable if things fall through.  Any time you say "no deal" you are assuming risk.  "Did you close the deal?"  Well...no, but I did get him to agree to MORE before the deal fell through and I got nothing...so how about that raise, boss!

(10-30-2019, 02:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Careful, man.  You don't want to threaten a Bengal fan's victim card.  Things can't just be bad here.  They have to be worse than any team in history.  If anything contradicts their opinion (like the fact that only a very small minority of teams made any moves) then you are not allowed to even mention it.   

Basically the Bengals front office is the worst in the league for making no deals, but that argument does not apply to any other team. 

Bengals fans and Lions fans...otherwise?  Ehh...we're in a class all our own.

[Gamma Ray Tan]

(10-30-2019, 12:30 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The timing does seem suspect to say the least.

Yeah, that was 100% on purpose.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-30-2019, 02:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: We again don't really know if the Bengals didn't shop him behind the scenes. We know Dalton wasn't given heads up for his agent to, but again only one team (Bears) really had a need that is a contender this season and we don't know how their organization actually feels about their QB long term (we know what they should think). I'd say the team feels they can get better compensation in the off season when as many as 8 teams will be in the market for a QB.

The contender thing is not important.  Maybe Miami calls.  Do you think his agent doesn't call Miami?  Do you think he wants to go to a contender?  No he wants to go where he can play. 

Miami has the capital as well.  Sure they are looking at drafting a QB.  However Dalton for a 2nd or possibly one of their 3 1st round picks would be a way to go.  This way they get a QB they know can play and has been successful, instead of an unknown prospect and they can dedicate their picks to other positions of need.

Hell if Miami were able to get Dalton for one of their 2nd round picks, then that gives them 3 1st round picks to address the OLine and defense.

Now the question of whether or not MB takes the offer is irrelevant.  However the agent could make the calls if they were aware of the benching earlier than they did.  

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:46 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: The contender thing is not important.  Maybe Miami calls.  Do you think his agent doesn't call Miami?  Do you think he wants to go to a contender?  No he wants to go where he can play. 

Miami has the capital as well.  Sure they are looking at drafting a QB.  However Dalton for a 2nd or possibly one of their 3 1st round picks would be a way to go.  This way they get a QB they know can play and has been successful, instead of an unknown prospect and they can dedicate their picks to other positions of need.

Hell if Miami were able to get Dalton for one of their 2nd round picks, then that gives them 3 1st round picks to address the OLine and defense.

Now the question of whether or not MB takes the offer is irrelevant.  However the agent could make the calls if they were aware of the benching earlier than they did.  

The contender thing is hugely important. If they aren't a contender then they are just as interested, if not more after the season. The only reason to move him in season is to a contender and that should come with a steep premium.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-30-2019, 02:23 PM)Au165 Wrote: Would you really want to move him for less then a 1st if we can get him healthy and show he is healthy and actually trade him for a 1st after the season? The biggest knock on him was him being hurt and not knowing what you were getting, we can actually increase his value by playing him. 

His contract expires after the 2nd Browns-Bengals game. There's no trading him after that. Unless the Bengals sign him to an extension AND trade him in the same offseason which just isn't going to happen.

(10-30-2019, 02:23 PM)Au165 Wrote: Again, lack of movement yesterday doesn't mean we can't move guys before the draft. 

No, it doesn't. But lack of even TRYING to make a move does mean that winning at all costs is not the primary focus of the front office.

(10-30-2019, 02:23 PM)Au165 Wrote: As to not trying, again I am not really buying that as it comes across as hyperbole in the reports. They said we aren't listening, but we aren't listening based on what they were willing to give. We have shown we will listen for the right offer, we moved Palmer when we said we wouldn't and we slid back in the first round for Cordy Glenn when that was something we just didn't do. Like every single other team with a star yesterday, we were only moving them if we were wow'ed and no one was wowing anyone yesterday.

I would give that more credence if it wasn't for the reports that many GMs didn't even bother because they already know how the Bengals operate. On top of that, most of these deals require a BACK AND FORTH. Sure, the initial offer may not wow you, but then you work with them to try to get something that benefits you. It's not about "Well, they didn't offer us anything of value". It's about working with the other team to see if you CAN get something of value. If not, so be it. But, I would bet anything that the front office didn't even try. They listened, sure, but that was it. 

[Au165]

(10-30-2019, 02:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: His contract expires after the 2nd Browns-Bengals game. There's no trading him after that. Unless the Bengals sign him to an extension AND trade him in the same offseason which just isn't going to happen.

You can tag and trade.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-30-2019, 01:03 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Let's pump the brakes a bit. Those spicy nuggets are back, and I don't want to be a hypocrite. Those things are the real deal.

You and I both know that Mike Brown isn't eating any spicy nuggets. He's ordering plain ones, eating them with mayo, and asking for extra ketchup packets with his order so he can put them in his fridge at home rather than having to buy it at the grocery store.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(10-30-2019, 02:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: The contender thing is hugely important. If they aren't a contender then they are just as interested, if not more after the season. The only reason to move him in season is to a contender and that should come with a steep premium.

Wrong.  I just addressed why a team like Miami would trade for Dalton.  Dalton is a good QB that has had success in this league.  His struggles here are not due to him being a bad QB, but due to not having an Oline and reliable WRs outside of Green. 

Miami could easily trade for him and they could easily offer a 2nd round pick for him.  MB would probably ask for their 1st.  They have 3 of them, they could easily offer up the pick they got from Houston.  If MB refused that offer then that validates everyone that calls him incompetent.  Getting an early 2nd round pick or a late 1st for Dalton would be a great move.  I don't think Miami would balk at getting Dalton for a 2nd round pick. 

The Colts might also be interested if they think Dalton is better than Brissett.  I know I think Dalton is better, but the Colts are winning with Brissett and right now there is no need for them to make a change.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-30-2019, 02:49 PM)Au165 Wrote: You can tag and trade.

You can only trade a tagged player if they sign their tag, and AJ has specifically mentioned he really doesn't want franchise tagged. I can't see that tactic turning out well, unless the end goal is for Mike Brown to poison every single last good Bengals player against the team. He's kicking ass at that goal over the last almost thirty years.