LINEBACKER!?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

I am firmly convinced the Bengals’ front office does not understand defense at all. They just don’t. From 2016 onward, the defense of the Cincinnati Bengals has been atrocious. Awful. Horrific. There’s really no excuse for it. Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap were good players in their prime but let’s face facts. They are no longer in their prime. There are no defensive lineman on the bench who can take their place, either. I don’t see any defensive lineman being targeted in next year’s draft with the possible exception of Chase Young. Just remember, Mike Brown is all about the quarterback. He will draft a big arm quarterback even if the defense is leaking like an overfilled diaper.

[THE PISTONS]

Looking at the 49ers defense...they have A LOT of team speed.

[J24]

(10-31-2019, 10:38 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Looking at the 49ers defense...they have A LOT of team speed.

Yep; They run that 4-3 under Defense like Seattle who also has a lot of speed at LB. 

[J24]

(10-31-2019, 11:13 PM)J24 Wrote: Yep; They run that 4-3 under Defense like Seattle who also has a lot of speed at LB. 

More to this post. The 4-3 under is what most teams are running in the NFL what do most those teams invest in speed at LB. 
The Bengals have repeatedly invested in slow LBers and one has to question why? When Marvin started the team invested in speed at LB Nate Webster, Landon Johnson, Calab Miller, and Odell Thurman were all 4.6 guys at the very least. Now it seems there thrilled with 4.8 guys.

Anyways you want a stat that blows your mine here is. The Bengals front 4 of Geno, Carlos, Hubbard, and Billings have a overall Ranking of 72.9. According to PFF. Do you know what the Combo of Vigil and Preston are? 47.4 how is that possible? the Defensive Line is literally making there Job easy and they still suck.

[J24]

Also it's not like the LB core has to be great or even good they just don't have to be the worst in the NFL. For example the Combination PFF scores of Fred Warner(53.3) and Kwon Alexander (63.8) is 58.5 that's not good but yet significantly better than Vigil and Brown.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-31-2019, 09:52 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I checked out Wirfs... not really a fan of his.  I do say get OLine, but I don't think Wirfs is the guy we would need.  I don't mind getting more picks though.  Just disagree with who you have us getting.  Wirfs strikes me as a Jake Fisher type OT.

I don't see why we don't go Thomas, trade back into the 1st and grab Kindley (I hope he is there in 2 but seriously doubt it), if we don't trade back into the 1st and stay put in the 2nd and Kindley is gone I would want us to take Ben Bredeson with our 2nd pick.

I know this thread is about LBer.  However I am also intrigued with Tyler Biadasz to go with this rebuild at OLine.  If they were to pan out that would be Williams, Kindley, Biadasz, Hopkins and Thomas.  RG would still be an issue unless Price can get it together (which I am doubting at this point). 

Then in the 4th round, get Joe Bachie from Michigan State, tackling machine, decent in coverage and just an all around good player.



As I said above, I don't like the guys you are going for.  Murray is a hard hitter, but he is also out of position at times.  Simmons seems more of a 3-4 LBer guy to me.  More effective as a pass rusher and stopping the run.  I don't mind Jacob Eason, but without a good OLine, just see him getting beat up and not being as effective.  


Love the fact you are mentioning Kindley/Bredeson for round 2.  I hope they go Thomas in round 1.  I am sure they will grab a QB though, which kills me that some fans have the presence of mind to forgo a QB and take the OLine guys. 

You win some games with a good QB, you win a lot of games with a good OLine.

What didn't you like about Wirfs? You gave no details other than "I don't like him."
When I see him, I see a potential RT or OG. He reminds me of Dalton Risner.
If Jonah Williams is to be the future LT, they can get someone like Wirfs to either replace Hart of fill in at OG.

[ah5]

(10-31-2019, 12:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Are you saying we can't find 8-9 quality starters in 1 draft?

If we got picks 1-10 maybe. At this point I'm stoked if we get one that even starts as a rookie.

Sent from my BND-L34 using Tapatalk

[SadFaceBengal15]

(10-31-2019, 05:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Actually the CB FA market looks (far) better than guard market and I think starting-caliber guard can be more easily found than CB, but I agree with your Rds 1 and 2. Eason is a bit raw but he has the tools to mold into a great QB.

id have to agree with your talk about guard and CB.  Nab a CB in FA and draft a guard.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(10-31-2019, 09:52 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I checked out Wirfs... not really a fan of his.  I do say get OLine, but I don't think Wirfs is the guy we would need.  I don't mind getting more picks though.  Just disagree with who you have us getting.  Wirfs strikes me as a Jake Fisher type OT.

I don't see why we don't go Thomas, trade back into the 1st and grab Kindley (I hope he is there in 2 but seriously doubt it), if we don't trade back into the 1st and stay put in the 2nd and Kindley is gone I would want us to take Ben Bredeson with our 2nd pick.

I know this thread is about LBer.  However I am also intrigued with Tyler Biadasz to go with this rebuild at OLine.  If they were to pan out that would be Williams, Kindley, Biadasz, Hopkins and Thomas.  RG would still be an issue unless Price can get it together (which I am doubting at this point). 

Then in the 4th round, get Joe Bachie from Michigan State, tackling machine, decent in coverage and just an all around good player.



As I said above, I don't like the guys you are going for.  Murray is a hard hitter, but he is also out of position at times.  Simmons seems more of a 3-4 LBer guy to me.  More effective as a pass rusher and stopping the run.  I don't mind Jacob Eason, but without a good OLine, just see him getting beat up and not being as effective.  


Love the fact you are mentioning Kindley/Bredeson for round 2.  I hope they go Thomas in round 1.  I am sure they will grab a QB though, which kills me that some fans have the presence of mind to forgo a QB and take the OLine guys. 

You win some games with a good QB, you win a lot of games with a good OLine.

Im not too picky of the guy at Tackle although i like Wirfs i just want them to go OT round 1 best tackle available.  Simmons is not a 3/4 lionebacker as he has played some safety this year he is a fly around the field with speed linebacker who can go sideline to sideline not an edge rusher smh  Murray and or Simmons instantly start and are major upgrades over what is on the roster...both will be late first round talents selected and waiting again til the 3rd or 4th round to address linebacker makes it seem as if u havent been watching the bengals defense this year nor last.  Im all about addressing the offensive line but in ur theory u dont have us addressing QB so ur banking on finely with our current offensive line coming in and proving he can be our starting qb of the future or atleast another couple years. which i 100% disagree with.  if they trade back in round 1 and collect another 1rst round pick and go Best TAckle Available and best linebacker available (hopefully simmons or Murray) and then come back in 2 and grab Eason and then in 3 grab a guard (rookie guards early can come in and play well) you have now addressed the QB position with a frnachise style big armed QB which Mike brown loves youve addressed the linebacker situation with speed and athleticism and top talent which this team DESPERATLEY NEEDS  and also the offensive line with a first round tackle and an early day 2 guard to play left or right guard.  alot can be fixed in 2 days if the bengals are SMART and not stupid.  too many holes to address Oline with every pick bud.  no necessary either.  You draft a tackle and guard with ur first and third round picks resign hopkins you now have Jonah williams Rookie guard Hopkins hopfully billy price and first round rookie tackle at right tackle.  thats plenty good talent for mixon to rush for 1200 and a qb to be protected.  cmon now

[BengalChris]

(10-31-2019, 12:41 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Heres my concern, lets say we go QB round 1 we then must address the offensive line in round 2.  are we really gonna wait again to address the linebacker situation.  pratt does not look good vigil like ive been saying for years now is NOT GOOD AT ALL preston brown is also NOT GOOD AT ALL.  when is this team gonna get its linebacker of the future.  we know it wont be FA.  Its just my concern.  team has a lot of needs but linebacker situation is kiiiiiilling me.  We get ran through week in and week out cuz of it. Someone please give me something positive about it although i fear there is nothing.

Don't worry, there will be some aging vet desperate for one more year in the league and Mikey will find him.

 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(11-01-2019, 03:39 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Im not too picky of the guy at Tackle although i like Wirfs i just want them to go OT round 1 best tackle available.  Simmons is not a 3/4 lionebacker as he has played some safety this year he is a fly around the field with speed linebacker who can go sideline to sideline not an edge rusher smh  Murray and or Simmons instantly start and are major upgrades over what is on the roster...both will be late first round talents selected and waiting again til the 3rd or 4th round to address linebacker makes it seem as if u havent been watching the bengals defense this year nor last.  Im all about addressing the offensive line but in ur theory u dont have us addressing QB so ur banking on finely with our current offensive line coming in and proving he can be our starting qb of the future or atleast another couple years. which i 100% disagree with.  if they trade back in round 1 and collect another 1rst round pick and go Best TAckle Available and best linebacker available (hopefully simmons or Murray) and then come back in 2 and grab Eason and then in 3 grab a guard (rookie guards early can come in and play well) you have now addressed the QB position with a frnachise style big armed QB which Mike brown loves youve addressed the linebacker situation with speed and athleticism and top talent which this team DESPERATLEY NEEDS  and also the offensive line with a first round tackle and an early day 2 guard to play left or right guard.  alot can be fixed in 2 days if the bengals are SMART and not stupid.  too many holes to address Oline with every pick bud.  no necessary either.  You draft a tackle and guard with ur first and third round picks resign hopkins you now have Jonah williams Rookie guard Hopkins hopfully billy price and first round rookie tackle at right tackle.  thats plenty good talent for mixon to rush for 1200 and a qb to be protected.  cmon now

Holy wall of words.... break it up into paragraphs for easier reading please.

I will attempt to address this. 

1st.  I have been watching this defense, it sucks and our LBer play has been terrible for many years.  However your assuming that these 2 LBers are the only ones that have any talent in this draft.  Bachie is JUST as talented as these 2 and could instantly upgrade over Brown or Vigil.  Murray can be over aggressive and has taken bad angles.  That leads to missed tackles.  Simmons is listed as more of an OLB, which is a need but not a 1st round one.

2nd.  I like the Eason pick, but MB doesn't LOVE big armed QBs.... fans do.  MB may pick Eason, but only to appease the fanbase to fill in the seats.  That isn't SMART, that is stupid.  That isn't fixing the problems but changing out parts hoping the customers don't notice so you can continue making money off of them.  Big arm QBs don't translate to wins, but they do translate to flashy highlights that make it seem they are good.

3rd.  You are hoping that Price turns it around, and I am not in total disagreement with you, but in the end you can't rely on it.  You have just as much chance of hitting on a draft pick as you do a player turning around.  Not only that but if Price does turn it around you still have a need at OLine.  Williams, Hopkins, Price... and in your case Wirfs (btw his name sounds like whiffs and the jokes will write themselves if I am correct about him).  You then are hoping in a later draft pick to come in to start.

Finally.  I know my wish list is just that, an unrealistic wish list.  I don't think any team has ever went back to back to back OLine.  I don't see them taking Thomas in the 1st.  They may take a OG in the 2nd and more than likely will not take a Center in the 3rd.  If I were being realistic, they take QB (whichever one they think will fill in the seats), LBer (not your 2 guys) and then probably take a OT/OG rated Lineman in the 3rd.  We may get lucky and all 3 are good and can win us some games and be productive, but it isn't very likely.

The reason it isn't likely is that even with that OT/OG combo being good.  Williams may or may not work out, which makes him a ?, but even if he is, we now have Williams, Hopkins and that OT/OG rookie.  We still need another OG or OT depending on which position that combo player plays BEST at.  You say you HOPE Price turns it around, OK, what if he doesn't?  If he does that is only 4 out of the 5 spots needed, that is better but still having a need on the line.

My philosophy in football is that you can win with bad LBer play... but you can't win with bad OLine play.  Fix the OLine and you are in every game you are in, shoot outs... you are in it.  A good to great OLine improves your QB play, your running game and can keep your defense off the field.  LBer play only works if the rest of the defense does its job and pressures the QB from the DLine to DBs covering the WRs.

So save your "c'mon now" for people like yourself that seems to want to turn us into the Browns by grabbing "big arm" QBs and "speedy" LBers just because they are flashy.  No, my wishlist isn't flashy, but at least it is addressing the biggest need on this team, and that need is the difference between success and failure.  I could be wrong on my assessments and all of the guys I list could all be terrible, which would still leave us needing OLine,  but at least we are trying to address the issue and I say continue addressing it, until it is fixed.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(11-01-2019, 10:00 AM)ochocincos Wrote: What didn't you like about Wirfs? You gave no details other than "I don't like him."
When I see him, I see a potential RT or OG. He reminds me of Dalton Risner.
If Jonah Williams is to be the future LT, they can get someone like Wirfs to either replace Hart of fill in at OG.

This is fair.  Call it a hunch.  I don't think Wirfs is a good pick.  I could be wrong about him.

It is to do with how you do see him though.  A hybrid.  OT or OG, in your case you see him only being able to play RT.  If I want versatility from my OTs, I prefer the ones that can play LT or RT.  Which is why I like Thomas, he can play either LT or RT.  Williams can too.  Odds are, one may not succeed at the LT spot, so you flip him to RT and play the other at LT.  If they both play LT well, then we really hit on the 2 picks and you can play the BEST one at LT and slid the "2nd" best at RT.  Not missing a beat. 

I do know that Wirfs has struggled in some games and does have some areas that he needs to improve on.  With our coaching staff, I prefer my OLine guys to need little improvement as possible.  He has potential, but he needs a good or great coach to bring it out of him.

I wouldn't hate the pick, just that I would prefer Thomas to definitely replace Hart, have Williams play the opposite side and get Kindley or Bredeson to play OG.

Hope that answers your question and provides a little perspective to my trepidation with Wirfs (as I said, if I am right about him he will not be called Wirfs here, but Whiffs).

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-31-2019, 01:06 PM)jj22 Wrote: The Browns model before the Hue tank (when they had to trade players for extra picks). Of course they blew all those years of multiple picks from passing on top qb's like Wentz/Goff/Mahone/Watson. But they were able to build up a nice run of multiple first round picks at first without the trades. Like 5 years worth.

It's a gamble (if we don't eventually get the right QB or the other QB's we pass on star), but we do need more picks if we can't rely on FA help.

Goff and Mahomes were both taken before their pick they traded back from (unless you are faulting the Browns for not taking Mahomes 1st overall, which he was never in conversation for any team seeing as how Mahomes finished his college season 5-7, not even bowl eligible, and needed to sit for a year in the NFL).

[DYT_Bengal]

I really like Simmons - but I would not call him a LB. He is an athletic SS with excellent ball skills and at the point of attack. He does not take blocks on very well though, but I have yet to see any of the athletic OLBs do that either. My only concern is we already have a converted safety at LB - Germaine Pratt who I see a lot of him in Simmons tape. I still think he will pan out he just needs the right system.

I really don’t think the QBs in this class are top 5 material besides Tua who has injury concerns - I don’t trust this team to do him right. Chase Young is obviously the best player this year and I would be happy to draft him but our team has glaring deficiencies - this pick would make sense if we had shed weight at the deadline.

I personally would trade back, which we will actually have the chance to do this year (in reality, the chance is not always there), and draft Andrew Thomas and Simmons in the first. There are a stupid amount of good wr coming out this year, plus intriguing QB prospects that teams tend to overvalue. Dylan Moses is also a name to watch that would match the teams needs in the late first/second we could target.

Interesting thing is the two big FA LB we looked at this year are injured for the majority of season this year - these fast guys seem to injure easily. Good OLB are necessary in today’s NFL but great OLB can be overkill or pricey. we had the chance to draft guys the past two years that would have helped alleviate our issues, we don’t necessarily need to take one in the first.

[J24]

(11-02-2019, 02:46 PM)willieFANderson Wrote: I really like Simmons - but I would not call him a LB. He is an athletic SS with excellent ball skills and at the point of attack. He does not take blocks on very well though, but I have yet to see any of the athletic OLBs do that  either. My only concern is we already have a converted safety at LB - Germaine Pratt who I see a lot of him in Simmons tape. I still think he will pan out he just needs the right system.

I really don’t think the QBs in this class are top 5 material besides Tua who has injury concerns - I don’t trust this team to do him right. Chase Young is obviously the best player this year and I would be happy to draft him but our team has glaring deficiencies - this pick would make sense if we had shed weight at the deadline.

I personally would trade back, which we will actually have the chance to do this year (in reality, the chance is not always there), and draft Andrew Thomas and Simmons in the first. There are a stupid amount of good wr coming out this year, plus intriguing QB prospects that teams tend to overvalue. Dylan Moses is also a name to watch that would match the teams needs in the late first/second we could target.

Interesting thing is the two big FA LB we looked at this year are injured for the majority of season this year - these fast guys seem to injure easily. Good OLB are necessary in today’s NFL but great OLB can be overkill or pricey.  we had the chance to draft guys the past two years that would have helped alleviate our issues, we don’t necessarily need to take one in the first.

Agreed Simmons is a SS but we need one of those as well and I also agree that we should trade down. I just don't you're going to get two firsts in this draft unless you move significantly back with a trade with the Raiders.
I'm hoping if things stand that we can make a trade with Atlanta for both seconds and stay with in the top 5.

[Sled21]

I just don't see this team going Linebacker before the 3rd rd. That said, Kash Daniel..... he's got speed, bulk and attitude. Would be a nice replacement for Preston Brown.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-02-2019, 02:23 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: This is fair.  Call it a hunch.  I don't think Wirfs is a good pick.  I could be wrong about him.

It is to do with how you do see him though.  A hybrid.  OT or OG, in your case you see him only being able to play RT.  If I want versatility from my OTs, I prefer the ones that can play LT or RT.  Which is why I like Thomas, he can play either LT or RT.  Williams can too.  Odds are, one may not succeed at the LT spot, so you flip him to RT and play the other at LT.  If they both play LT well, then we really hit on the 2 picks and you can play the BEST one at LT and slid the "2nd" best at RT.  Not missing a beat. 

I do know that Wirfs has struggled in some games and does have some areas that he needs to improve on.  With our coaching staff, I prefer my OLine guys to need little improvement as possible.  He has potential, but he needs a good or great coach to bring it out of him.

I wouldn't hate the pick, just that I would prefer Thomas to definitely replace Hart, have Williams play the opposite side and get Kindley or Bredeson to play OG.

Hope that answers your question and provides a little perspective to my trepidation with Wirfs (as I said, if I am right about him he will not be called Wirfs here, but Whiffs).

Don't get me wrong.
Thomas is who I want. He's like Williams in that I think he can play both LT and RT very well.
However, I very highly doubt Thomas would still be available in a trade down scenario.
The only reason for suggesting Wirfs was if the Bengals traded back to get an extra 1st rounder.
The Bengals could then look for a swing OT in Rds 2-4.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(11-04-2019, 03:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Don't get me wrong.
Thomas is who I want. He's like Williams in that I think he can play both LT and RT very well.
However, I very highly doubt Thomas would still be available in a trade down scenario.
The only reason for suggesting Wirfs was if the Bengals traded back to get an extra 1st rounder.
The Bengals could then look for a swing OT in Rds 2-4.

Have you checked out Trey Adams?  I like him a bit better than Wirfs.

As I said though, I may be wrong about Wirfs.  He could be a solid pick up.  In a trade back scenario, I wouldn't hate him to be our pick, but if Adams is still there, I would go for him over Wirfs.  I wonder how bad Walker Little's knee injury is, cause I could see us targeting him in a trade scenario.  I know many wouldn't like the pick since Little is injured, but I don't believe you should be gun shy over injuries.

[J24]

(11-04-2019, 10:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Have you checked out Trey Adams?  I like him a bit better than Wirfs.

As I said though, I may be wrong about Wirfs.  He could be a solid pick up.  In a trade back scenario, I wouldn't hate him to be our pick, but if Adams is still there, I would go for him over Wirfs.  I wonder how bad Walker Little's knee injury is, cause I could see us targeting him in a trade scenario.  I know many wouldn't like the pick since Little is injured, but I don't believe you should be gun shy over injuries.

Adams I imagine will be picked on the second day because of injury history. Could be a good fit for us though.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(11-04-2019, 10:37 PM)J24 Wrote: Adams I imagine will be picked on the second day because of injury history. Could be a good fit for us though.

The more I check out the other prospects, the more I don't want to trade that 1st pick.  I really want Thomas and think that him and Williams would solidify the bookends on the line.  If we could get Kindley in the 2nd then that would be wonderful.  If not Kindley, then Bredeson.  Actually there are quite a few OGs that look decent.