Small market free agency

[Catmandude123]

(11-07-2019, 12:12 PM)Fullrock Wrote: But that has nothing to do with his original post that the NFL isn't fair to small market teams. If Mike Brown decides to not spend money when he is making millions upon millions of dollars each year, then that's an ownership problem (which we all know) not an NFL problem.

Did you read past the first line of the op? I just think that by delaying FA or moving the draft before would have a better effect to making the playing field more level. Knowing exactly where your needs are after the draft is a whole lot better than having to wait until after the draft and the having only marginal players to choose from because all the best FAs have already been scooped up.

[Fullrock]

(11-07-2019, 12:34 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Did you read past the first line of the op? I just think that by delaying FA or moving the draft before would have a better effect to making the playing field more level. Knowing exactly where your needs are after the draft is a whole lot better than having to wait until after the draft and the having only marginal players to choose from because all the best FAs have already been scooped up.

I read the original post. I disagree with it. You said bigger market teams get free agents cheaper because they know they have a better chance of winning a championship there. I contend that market size has nothing to do with the potential to win an NFL championship. You also said there are teams who know how to manipulate the salary cap and teams who don't. As I stated, if there are teams who don't, that's on those individual teams.

[*Synric*]

(11-07-2019, 12:09 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, if you really wanted to get into it, you need to consider local tax rates. 

State tax in California alone (not including city or county) is like 15%.  New York City's combined local tax is over 12%. Comparitively, Ohio's tax rate caps at 5.7%.  Florida has no state tax. Zero. Which is why so many athletes, namely almost every golfer, reside there.

So start doing the math. Suh's 100 mil deal in Miami would need to be 116+ in California to be equal. Drop in local tax, and higher sales tax in San Francisco, and that number moves into 120+.

As far as endorsements, that's an outdated and tired argument. It belongs in Mad Men.

What athletes are we seeing most in advertisements right now? Well you've got Rodgers and Mahomes in the State Farm ads. And where do they play? Green Bay and Kansas City. Then you got the Mayfield spots that run every other break. Where's he? Cleveland.  Peyton Manning got more oppotunities than anyone playing the bulk of his career in Indy and finishing in average market Denver.  Polomalu out of Pit doing the Head and Shoulder spots... Joe Green; Coke... 

Try as you might, you're not convincing anyone we're at some disadvantage that heeds are ability to spend to cap and sign a certain caliber of player. It's, for whatever reason, self inflicted. Be it cheapness, dated business practices, inferior product, infererior facilities and ammentities, or simply because we choose not to.

Our market size, and Mike Brown's net worth does nothing to explain or forgive our inability to build a capable roster and quality product. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Indy... How many examples do you want to stop spewing complete nonsense?

Players build their own brand and being a great player on a winning team in a large market is the best way to receive lucrative endorsement deals. A great player in a small market doesn't get the same recognition. A great player on a bad team in a small market is a brand killer.

So if you are a player with solid name recognition entering free agency you are going to look at comparative deals from larger markets on winning teams. 

https://nationalfootballpost.com/the-nfl-endorsement-market/

[fredtoast]

I think I might have already posted this some where in this thread, but players getting their first big contract in free agency go to any team that will pay them. And I don't think they take less to go to bigger cities because I see big city teams pay out the ass in free agency.

The only exception is Green Bay because it is SO MUCH smaller and SO MUCH whiter than any other city on the league. Other than that even the smaller cities have plenty of clubs and entertainment for rich young single men.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-07-2019, 12:08 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: They also know how to manipulate the cap to their advantage. If you watch how FOs are run the Pats will keep some players until they are about to hit free agency then trade them for more picks. The Bengals seem to do just the opposite. Over paying for players that will never achieve what their new contract pays them. Why do they do it ? Because fans revolt when they don'(I. e. Whit)t. Could you imagine what the fans would say if we had Chandler Jones or Collins and let them go? Players like Dunlap, Atkin, and this year AJ will be a detriment to success.

Lots of teams have capologists.

Small market teams manipulate the cap too.

It's hard to compare how the Bengals operate and then generalize that all small market teams are alike. The Bengals are an extreme outlier from how other teams operate.

[Sled21]

(11-07-2019, 11:37 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Individual players do NOT see individual profits from their jersey sales.

C'mon guys, how much misinformation can be spread in one thread?

Well, one post at least.....

[Sled21]

(11-07-2019, 11:59 AM)Fullrock Wrote: Marvin Jones went to Detroit because he had the chance to be the No. 1 WR there when he knew he would never have that opportunity here. He went to an organization who hasn't won a playoff game since Jan 1992 so I doubt he considered the opportunity to "grow his brand" as the difference maker. Winning is a great way to grow your brand. I doubt there was any mad rush to run out and buy Marvin Jones jerseys, and I have yet to see him in any advertising spot.

That's funny, because he and his agent both said he wanted to go to Detroit to grow his brand. Now, being a #1 has a lot to do with it, but the ancillaries were also attractive and played a part in his decision.

[Sled21]

(11-07-2019, 11:27 AM)Fullrock Wrote: It's obvious you don't have a clue about how the NFL works. Robert Kraft could be worth 500 billion and it wouldn't make a difference in terms of NFL success. There is a SALARY CAP and REVENUE SHARING that puts every team on the same level regardless of any other circumstances. What is it about that you don't understand??? Please enlighten us on how an owner's net worth translates into putting a more competitive product on the field. I'll wait...

Salary cap only limit what you pay players (and coaches, I think). It does not limit what you can spend on facilities, programs etc.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-07-2019, 02:31 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Salary cap only limit what you pay players (and coaches, I think). It does not limit what you can spend on facilities, programs etc.

Salary cap has nothing to do with coaching salaries.

[Sled21]

(11-07-2019, 02:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Salary cap has nothing to do with coaching salaries.

Ok, that's why I said "I think", and it just shows my point that teams owned by the Super rich, ie Kraft, have advantages over teams owned by normal rich guys.

[t3r3e3]

(11-08-2019, 03:50 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Ok, that's why I said "I think", and it just shows my point that teams owned by the Super rich, ie Kraft, have advantages over teams owned by normal rich guys.

All the owners are rich(save the fan-owned Packers), and all can afford amenities and perks to take care of their players. For example, I hear the massage therapy that the Pats provide is second to none...

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-08-2019, 03:50 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Ok, that's why I said "I think", and it just shows my point that teams owned by the Super rich, ie Kraft, have advantages over teams owned by normal rich guys.

The Dolphins and Jaguars owners are worth significantly more than what Kraft is.  The Rooney Family (Steelers) are well down into the bottom 3rd.  And the Packers aren't even privately owned.

I have to ask, have you considered actual dollar investment? Because the Browns not only didn't spend a dime on their stadium, they don't even pay for maintaining and upgrading it.  Hamilton County has invested 980 million to date in stadium costs, and are projected to spend at 1.2 billion by 2026. Many (most) other owners are hit with a slew of operating costs that we are not, due to such a tremendously lopsided stadium deal.

Only a fool would ignore many of these facts.  It's such narrow and simple-minded logic to explain (forgive) our lack of spending by only looking at net worths throughtout the league. It resembles that of a disinterestd middle schooler, who's writing his paper the morning it's due. It's so lazy and desperate it's almost comical.

And there is no such thing as "normal" rich among these guys. They're all billionaires. How dense are you?

[Wes Mantooth]

How many operating expenses have the Bengals been spared of, relative to their peers?  Look at the numbers, do the math...

Even taking a fraction of what the county has paid, and will pay, in maintinance would pay for a practice facilty multiple times over. And these are costs in addition to the actual construction. Expenses that many of their peers incur.

The actual dollars invested from organization are bottom of the barrel, embarassing, and approaching unethical.

[Catmandude123]

(11-08-2019, 05:01 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Dolphins and Jaguars owners are worth significantly more than what Kraft is.  The Rooney Family (Steelers) are well down into the bottom 3rd.  And the Packers aren't even privately owned.

I have to ask, have you considered actual dollar investment? Because the Browns not only didn't spend a dime on their stadium, they don't even pay for maintaining and upgrading it.  Hamilton County has invested 980 million to date in stadium costs, and are projected to spend at 1.2 billion by 2026. Many (most) other owners are hit with a slew of operating costs that we are not, due to such a tremendously lopsided stadium deal.

Only a fool would ignore many of these facts.  It's such narrow and simple-minded logic to explain (forgive) our lack of spending by only looking at net worths throughtout the league. It resembles that of a disinterestd middle schooler, who's writing his paper the morning it's due. It's so lazy and desperate it's almost comical.

And there is no such thing as "normal" rich among these guys. They're all billionaires. How dense are you?

The city receives 150 million per year because of the deal with the Bengals. The sad part is that there will still be 200million owed after 2020. If the Bengals leave , which nearly everyone on here talks about, the taxpayers will be on the hook for that money and lose 150 million a year.

[Catmandude123]

(11-08-2019, 05:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: How many operating expenses have the Bengals been spared of, relative to their peers?  Look at the numbers, do the math...

Even taking a fraction of what the county has paid, and will pay, in maintinance would pay for a practice facilty multiple times over. And these are costs in addition to the actual construction. Expenses that many of their peers incur.

The actual dollars invested from organization are bottom of the barrel, embarassing, and approaching unethical.

So you think Cincinnati is the only city that the taxpayers pay for the stadium? Nevada is building a new stadium for the Raiders as we speak, the chargers let SD because of not getting a new stadium. If a city wants to be an NFL team they better be prepared to pay out the nose for it.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-08-2019, 05:12 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The city receives 150 million per year because of the deal with the Bengals. The sad part is that there will still be 200million owed after 2020. If the Bengals leave , which nearly everyone on here talks about, the taxpayers will be on the hook for that money and lose 150 million a year.

Ms. Drehaus, is that you?

That politician's line is so flawed and has been disproven countless times. 

[BengalChris]

(11-07-2019, 12:48 PM)Fullrock Wrote: I read the original post. I disagree with it. You said bigger market teams get free agents cheaper because they know they have a better chance of winning a championship there. I contend that market size has nothing to do with the potential to win an NFL championship. You also said there are teams who know how to manipulate the salary cap and teams who don't. As I stated, if there are teams who don't, that's on those individual teams.

Exactly. You cannot manipulate the cap, you can only operate within its rules. Some know the rules, some don't.

 

[Sled21]

(11-08-2019, 05:01 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: And there is no such thing as "normal" rich among these guys. They're all billionaires. How dense are you?

Obviously not as dense as you.....

Quote:https://www.si.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals-owner-mike-brown
[b]Net Worth:[/b] $925 million (per ESPN in 2015)

Robert Kraft- 6.9 Billion
Jerry Jones- 8.5 billion
Stan Kroenke- 9.7 billion

Mike Brown is not even in the same ballpark as some of the other owners..... in fact Mike Brown and the owner of the Raiders are the only owners that are not billionaires...…
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/nfl-owners-guide-32-teams-franchises

[Shake n Blake]

(11-06-2019, 04:37 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Well I would bet that if MB owned Kraft foods he would probably be more likely to spend more on his toy, the Bengals. 

Mikey dropped $300 million on his "toy" in 2011, buying out the minority share like it was nothing. So excuse me if I call BS on Mike not being able to afford $10 mil for a free agent every few years. The dude is just a tightwad. To the point he used to rent TVs at training camp and wouldn't pay for proper towels. There is no conspiracy here. Mike Brown just sucks.

[t3r3e3]

(11-08-2019, 05:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: How many operating expenses have the Bengals been spared of, relative to their peers?  Look at the numbers, do the math...

Even taking a fraction of what the county has paid, and will pay, in maintinance would pay for a practice facilty multiple times over. And these are costs in addition to the actual construction. Expenses that many of their peers incur.

The actual dollars invested from organization are bottom of the barrel, embarassing, and approaching unethical.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!!! The troubles of the organization lie at the feet of ownership. Their miserly ways put them at a severe disadvantage with the rest of the league. Mike Brown is a billionaire. He got there on the backs of Hamilton County taxpayers and the fans. His refusal to provide similar facilities and amenities as his peers make an uncompetitive team a virtual pariah to free agents. There’s a reason the team resorts to signing troubled former first rounders and the Kerry Joseph’s of the league. Ownership is pathetically cheap, and skates by on the bare minimum while lining their pockets and paying family members to suck at their jobs.