TERRIBLE Play-Calling

[THE PISTONS]

1st down...it seems EVERY time they ran the ball. Progressive offenses establish the run then use play-action and go deep.

And then, 3rd and 10+...we do a screen or 3-5 yard throw and expect the WR or RB to break tackles and run for 10 extra yards.

Also, we don't use TE's.

AND when we fake the jet sweep...our time is way off. We wait until the WR is way past the QB. The goal of a fake is to do something that is realistic enough to make the other team react.

But, Taylor did have the 123rd ranked offense out of 128 in college football...when he was OC at UC.

He's legit terrible. It seems like they run the same 8-10 plays over and over.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

But I thought that you said before that it was all Dalton's fault, all it was going to take was a real QB to "elevate the players around him" or some kind of bullshit like that.

[Pat5775]

(11-24-2019, 06:42 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 1st down...it seems EVERY time they ran the ball. Progressive offenses establish the run then use play-action and go deep.

And then, 3rd and 10+...we do a screen or 3-5 yard throw and expect the WR or RB to break tackles and run for 10 extra yards.

Also, we don't use TE's.

AND when we fake the jet sweep...our time is way off. We wait until the WR is way past the QB. The goal of a fake is to do something that is realistic enough to make the other team react.

-But, Taylor did have the 123rd ranked offense out of 128 in college football...when he was OC at UC.

He's legit terrible. It seems like they run the same 8-10 plays over and over.

You know what’s funny? I blamed that stat on Tommy Tupperware being essentially retired while coaching UC and gave Zac a free pass...

I couldn’t have been more wrong

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 06:46 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: But I thought that you said before that it was all Dalton's fault, all it was going to take was a real QB to "elevate the players around him" or some kind of bullshit like that.

Dude...I've been talking about how terrible this staff was since the offseason.

You have me convinced with someone else.

I've also said, we're about 7-8 upgrades at starter away.

Dalton isn't great, but he's not terrible easy. When you see the entire team get worse...it's the coaches.

[Pat5775]

(11-24-2019, 06:46 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: But I thought that you said before that it was all Dalton's fault, all it was going to take was a real QB to "elevate the players around him" or some kind of bullshit like that.

A real QB wouldn’t hurt. But we certainly don’t have one on this current roster

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 06:47 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: You know what’s funny? I blamed that stat on Tommy Tupperware being essentially retired while coaching UC and gave Zac a free pass...

I couldn’t have been more wrong

Innovative OC's come into college and come up with great schemes. Taylor flopped there. He flopped in Miami (although it was only 5 games...but he made them WORSE).

He just isn't some great offensive mind.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(11-24-2019, 06:48 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: A real QB wouldn’t hurt. But we certainly don’t have one on this current roster

Do you honestly think this team is a QB away?

My point is that the problem with this team was never Dalton. A bunch of clueless people that only watch where the ball goes think it was Dalton's fault. People that actually watch the the game and don't just follow the football know that Dalton doesn't even merit a place on the "Top 10 Reasons The Cincinnati Bengals Suck" list.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 06:52 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Do you honestly think this team is a QB away?

My point is that the problem with this team was never Dalton. A bunch of clueless people that only watch where the ball goes think it was Dalton's fault. People that actually watch the the game and don't just follow the football know that Dalton doesn't even merit a place on the "Top 10 Reasons The Cincinnati Bengals Suck" list.

I think some knew that it wasn't Dalton.

Honestly, even when the QB's have time they make bad throws. The receivers don't get separation. The run game is bad. The scheme is bad.

This isn't a 1-2 player fix.

I think they really need to consider firing the entire coaching staff.

[impactplaya]

Very simply the talent and scheme need to co exist in order
For the points to come and the Bengals right now Lack both.

[Destro]

With how the Steelers played and who was on the field, 29-30 teams would have beat them...not Cincy, though.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(11-24-2019, 07:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think some knew that it wasn't Dalton.

Honestly, even when the QB's have time they make bad throws. The receivers don't get separation. The run game is bad. The scheme is bad.

This isn't a 1-2 player fix.

I think they really need to consider firing the entire coaching staff.

Interesting that you see all of this now. I've been preaching that since before I joined this board, but heard very little of it from the people dragging their hatred for Dalton into every thread. DT cut by another team? 10 pages, 9 about Dalton, almost all of it by people that have never played QB in their life.

Here's a hint to the clueless people that only follow the ball.

QBs that throw to where the receiver is going, get intercepted a lot and don't last in the NFL(Bird Dogging)

QBs that throw where the defenders aren't and make receivers adjust to the throws last a long time in this league(reading the defense)

90% of the time I passed the ball over 5 yards past the line of scrimmage was dictated by where the safeties were compared to the routes that were called for that play. Dan Marino was probably the best that I ever studied at pre-snap reads. "OK, the #2 and #3 options are DOA on this snap, I need to get the 4th option's attention to either run the hot route for this play or completely audible his route altogether without alerting the defense to make a switch because he's now the #2 and I won't have enough time for him to run an intricate 4th option route".

Like it or not, Dalton is pretty damn good at reading a defense, BUT . . . when you have no running game, WRs have no separation, they rarely throw the ball deep early to push the safeties back and the OC never runs a crossing route to create an opening, reading a defense well isn't going to help much.

[muskiesfan]

This IS NOT directed at the OP.

I'm having a hard time understanding how talent on this team is an issue. Andy Dalton has always been surround by, and I quote, "ultra elite talent". When he hasn't been surround by that "ultra elite", he still has "elite talent" at his disposal. My guess is that this is not a Zac Taylor problem, a coaching problem, a talent problem, or anything else. At bare minimum our "elite talent" just isn't performing.

Honestly, I know ownership, scouting, management, coaching, and talent all suck, but there are still some here who claim Dalton was and is the entire issue and that this team is loaded with talent that has suffered from sharing air with Andy Dalton and Marvin Lewis.

[Destro]

Team was once a Ferrari, but driven by Mike Brown who made horrible decisions. Dalton is and was the best QB on the team, but people just wanted different. Grass was always greener. Everyone who was "elite" is no longer a factor. The time past on Dalton and the rest. Sad that he became the best of the rest, but it was all pretty damn bad. Finey and Dol were on the bench/inactive for a reason.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(11-24-2019, 08:02 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I'm having a hard time understanding how talent on this team is an issue. Andy Dalton has always been surround by, and I quote, "ultra elite talent". When he hasn't been surround by that "ultra elite", he still has "elite talent" at his disposal. My guess is that this is not a Zac Taylor problem, a coaching problem, a talent problem, or anything else. At bare minimum our "elite talent" just isn't performing.

I'm confused by this "always been surrounded by ultra-elite talent" comment.

Explain yourself, please.

[muskiesfan]

(11-24-2019, 08:14 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I'm confused by this "always been surrounded by ultra-elite talent" comment.

Explain yourself, please.

I know who made that post and could probably go dig it up, but not sure I want to make the effort.

It's a well known anti-Dalton poster on the board. Made a post sometime in the last couple of weeks that Dalton has always been surround by ultra elite and elite talent and is just a garbage QB. One of the dumbest things I've ever read.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 07:39 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Interesting that you see all of this now. I've been preaching that since before I joined this board, but heard very little of it from the people dragging their hatred for Dalton into every thread. DT cut by another team? 10 pages, 9 about Dalton, almost all of it by people that have never played QB in their life.

Here's a hint to the clueless people that only follow the ball.

QBs that throw to where the receiver is going, get intercepted a lot and don't last in the NFL(Bird Dogging)

QBs that throw where the defenders aren't and make receivers adjust to the throws last a long time in this league(reading the defense)

90% of the time I passed the ball over 5 yards past the line of scrimmage was dictated by where the safeties were compared to the routes that were called for that play. Dan Marino was probably the best that I ever studied at pre-snap reads. "OK, the #2 and #3 options are DOA on this snap, I need to get the 4th option's attention to either run the hot route for this play or completely audible his route altogether without alerting the defense to make a switch because he's now the #2 and I won't have enough time for him to run an intricate 4th option route".

Like it or not, Dalton is pretty damn good at reading a defense, BUT . . . when you have no running game, WRs have no separation, they rarely throw the ball deep early to push the safeties back and the OC never runs a crossing route to create an opening, reading a defense well isn't going to help much.

Dalton is an Above Average NFL QB. He'll have 4 Really Good games. 4 Bad games. and about 8 Average to Above Average games. He gets the ball out quickly. He's fairly good at reading defenses. On the negative side, I'd say his pocket awareness isn't good...and he lately seemed to be seeing ghosts in the pocket from playing behind this terrible offensive line. It's already starting to happen to Finley too at times.

IF he has good coaching and players around him, he could win.

But, we have arguably the worst coaching staff of the past decade currently. That's thrown our roster and production into chaos.

If you put Aaron Rodgers on this team with this staff...I doubt we have more than a few wins.

Now, IF say we hired a Mike McCarthy...Dalton is probably still the starter and we're probably fringe competing for a playoff spot. Maybe AJ Green is playing too. But, I think Mixon would be the focal point of the offense, and they would be getting the ball to Mixon and Bernard various ways.

Now IF you put Belicheck here with Dalton, we're probably a playoff team.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(11-24-2019, 08:16 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I know who made that post and could probably go dig it up, but not sure I want to make the effort.

It's a well known anti-Dalton poster on the board. Made a post sometime in the last couple of weeks that Dalton has always been surround by ultra elite and elite talent and is just a garbage QB. One of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Gotcha. Well played.

My apologies, I get where you're coming from now.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 08:13 PM)Destro Wrote: Team was once a Ferrari, but driven by Mike Brown who made horrible decisions. Dalton is and was the best QB on the team, but people just wanted different. Grass was always greener. Everyone who was "elite" is no longer a factor. The time past on Dalton and the rest. Sad that he became the best of the rest, but it was all pretty damn bad. Finey and Dol were on the bench/inactive for a reason.

The best we'll see from a Mike Brown owned team is a good season here and there.

Maybe Burrow is the next great NFL QB and can change that?

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(11-24-2019, 08:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Dalton is an Above Average NFL QB. He'll have 4 Really Good games. 4 Bad games. and about 8 Average to Above Average games. He gets the ball out quickly. He's fairly good at reading defenses. On the negative side, I'd say his pocket awareness isn't good...and he lately seemed to be seeing ghosts in the pocket from playing behind this terrible offensive line. It's already starting to happen to Finley too at times.

IF he has good coaching and players around him, he could win.

But, we have arguably the worst coaching staff of the past decade currently. That's thrown our roster and production into chaos.

If you put Aaron Rodgers on this team with this staff...I doubt we have more than a few wins.

Now, IF say we hired a Mike McCarthy...Dalton is probably still the starter and we're probably fringe competing for a playoff spot. Maybe AJ Green is playing too. But, I think Mixon would be the focal point of the offense, and they would be getting the ball to Mixon and Bernard various ways.

Now IF you put Belicheck here with Dalton, we're probably a playoff team.

I pretty much agree with all of that. That's also why I said build a team around him, that way if he goes down, you just need a distributor that's not blinded by the lights to keep the offense rolling.

Every snap of Andy Dalton's pro career so far has been under the "leadership" of Marvin Lewis and Zack Taylor. As I've stated before, take away the little 5 yard crossing route away from Tom Brady and he'll have a lot of drives that look like Andy Dalton's drives in Cincinnati. Trying to compare Dalton's stats to that of the rest of the NFL is almost laughable due to the severe handicaps that these other QBs are never saddled with that any Bengal QB suffers from almost immediately upon landing across the river in Kentucky.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-24-2019, 08:58 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I pretty much agree with all of that. That's also why I said build a team around him, that way if he goes down, you just need a distributor that's not blinded by the lights to keep the offense rolling.

Every snap of Andy Dalton's pro career so far has been under the "leadership" of Marvin Lewis and Zack Taylor. As I've stated before, take away the little 5 yard crossing route away from Tom Brady and he'll have a lot of drives that look like Andy Dalton's drives in Cincinnati. Trying to compare Dalton's stats to that of the rest of the NFL is almost laughable due to the severe handicaps that these other QBs are never saddled with that any Bengal QB suffers from almost immediately upon landing across the river in Kentucky.

Dalton had no chance under Zac. They had him throwing the ball 50 times behind a bad offensive line.

It took them what 9 games to figure out they needed to change their run blocking scheme to gain yards??? AFTER Dalton was benched.

IF they did that for Andy, and only had him throw 20-25 times a game...we might have several wins.

As I've said before, it looks like the players are terrible...but it's bad coaching. Everyone looks bad under bad coaching. Better playcalling/scheme and we win probably 3-4 games so far.

Todays game was extremely winnable.