Peko Played A Hell Of A Game

[Hoofhearted]

(09-29-2015, 12:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why do people go to such lengths to criticize certain players?

When Justin Smith was a Bengal half the people here hated on him.  For years Leon Hall was one of the better CBs in the league and half the people here bashed him because he "couldn't cover speed receivers".  And it took Whitworth many years of playing at an elite level at OT before people here stopped claiming he should be moved to guard because he "struggled with speed rushers".

So people go to lengths tp defend these players because they deserve to be defended.

It's the nature of the business. Do you really think anywhere you go you wont get some sort of criticism, even more  so when you're in the public's eye? 

And they're being defended by the people who matter the most: the staff.  Do you really think the players really care what outsiders think about them? Doubtful. And if they do, shame on them for letting key-board heroes get to them.

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 12:40 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: And they're being defended by the people who matter the most: the staff.  Do you really think the players really care what outsiders think about them? Doubtful. And if they do, shame on them for letting key-board heroes get to them.

Who cares what the players think?   This is a message board discussion.

[McC]

(09-29-2015, 12:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That's right.  You don't see many interior defensive lineman racking up a lot of tackles, but in 2014 Peko was 9th in the league in tackles among interior defensive linemen.  In 2013 he was 11th.

And this is a common problem with fans here.  If they see a bengal DB get beat a couple of times they claim he can't cover anyone, but on fact every DB in the league gets beat from time to time  Bengal fans just see our DBs get beaten more often because we are always atching the Bengals.  Same tyhing with Peko.  People claim he doesn't make many tackles, but in fact he makes a lot more tackles than most other interior D-linemen in the league.

And if no o0ther DT in the league ever gets pushed back then how do NFL RBs average over 4 yards per carry?  shouldn't they all be getting stuffed at the LOS since no other DT in the league ever gets pushed off the LOS?


Bad DTs get blocked and don't make tackles.  Good DTs shed blockers and get to the RB.  Peko sheds blockers and get5s to the RB more than most other interior D-linemen in the league.

He does have a high motor, no denying that.   But if a NT makes a tackle 8 yards down the field, some might question whether he's really doing his job.

Knowing your love of cherry picking stats, and since I can google too, I looked up his stats.  The first thing that struck me is that since his high water mark in 2011, his numbers have gone down each year, which is exactly in line with what the "haters" say about him--his play is deteriorating, whether you like to admit it or not.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I thought the number #1 job of a DT was to shed blockers and get to the ball carrier.

Over the last three years Peko has been one of the best interior linemen in the league at doing this.

He plays hard and gets a lot of "free tackles" on the wrong side of the LOS. 
No one will ever accuse Peko of not playing harder than most of the guys in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 12:49 PM)McC Wrote: Knowing your love of cherry picking stats, and since I can google too, I looked up his stats.  The first thing that struck me is that since his high water mark in 2011, his numbers have gone down each year, which is exactly in line with what the "haters" say about him--his play is deteriorating, whether you like to admit it or not.

I will admit that his play is slipping.  BUt people around here are ridiculous in their criticism.  Many people wanted Peko cut in order to keep some third string scrub.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 12:00 PM)Sled21 Wrote: "Minnesota Vikings head coach Mike Zimmer has stated his belief that Cincinnati Bengals defensive tackle Domata Peko, whom he coached when he was Bengals defensive coordinator, is one of the best that he has worked with in the position."

Awe heck, what does Mike Zimmer know about defense.....

Mike Zimmer is very close with Peko and at one point in time, Peko WAS that good. 
How often do you hear former coaches trash former players? 

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 12:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: He plays hard and gets a lot of "free tackles" on the wrong side of the LOS. 

There is no such thing as a "free tackle" in an NFL game.  This is just silly.

[McC]

(09-29-2015, 12:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I will admit that his play is slipping.  BUt people around here are ridiculous in their criticism.  Many people wanted Peko cut in order to keep some third string scrub.

You're right about that.  I wasn't on that band wagon.  To me, the key with him, as others have said, is to keep his snap count within reason.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is no such thing as a "free tackle" in an NFL game.  This is just silly.

Hardly. But your Peko love (I'm surprised it took you this long to show up in this thread) is blinding you to truth.

Tackles aren't a good way to judge most players. Tackles are subjective to the score keepers at the games. 


Is it a quality tackle if he jumps in on one 5 yards down field? For a NT I  would argue no.

His job is to hold and maintain the LOS. 
Getting off blocks and disrupting and getting a TFL etc is bonus. His primary job is to make sure Geno isn't getting doubled. 

[djs7685]

Peko had more combined tackles than Kyle Williams in 2014.

Peko > Williams

Or something like that, right?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 01:01 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Peko had more combined tackles than Kyle Williams in 2014.

Peko > Williams

Or something like that, right?

Clearly. 
Tackles are probably the most misleading stat in any sport. 

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 01:00 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: His job is to hold and maintain the LOS. 

Getting off blocks and disrupting and getting a TFL etc is bonus.His primary job is to make sure Geno isn't getting doubled. 

How exactly does Peko make sure Geno is not being doubled?

If you were coaching D-line you would tell them not to try and shed blockers and get to the ball carrier?

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 01:02 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Clearly. 
Tackles are probably the most misleading stat in any sport. 

No they are not.

Bad players get blocked and don't make tackles.

Good players shed blocks and get to the ball carrier.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How exactly does Peko make sure Geno is not being doubled?

If you were coaching D-line you would tell them not to try and shed blockers and get to the ball carrier?

This post makes my head hurt and explains a lot about your opinions.

I'll try to go slowly.

1. You make sure Geno isn't being doubled by not being easily blocked 1 on 1. As the NT your job, especially on run plays, is to force the OL to use two men to stop you. When you get blocked by one man, as he has done the last several years, you allow the OL to double on the DE or 3T. These players are not typically built for this. They are made for getting disruption and getting behind the LOS. 

2. This doesn't mean Peko should NEVER do this. That is just typical fred crazy speak. It means if he can beat the block he should. If he beats the block enough they will pull the double off Geno and double down on him. Want to guess why they rarely take the double off of Geno? Because Peko isn't a big enough threat to consistently beat one on one blocks for them to worry about it.

3. As I have said, a lot of Peko's "tackle" stats come from his hustle and the fact he plays harder than most players. It's part of what made him a very good player in the past. But he's been in decline for at least 3 years now. The NT position is brutal and thankless. You hit a wall and it can go from good to very bad almost over night. He won't be the first good player this has happened to and he won't be the last

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-29-2015, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they are not.

Bad players get blocked and don't make tackles.

Good players shed blocks and get to the ball carrier.

Tackles are subjectively given out depending on who is the official keeper for that game. This is why you get discrepancies in tackle stats between NFL, ESPN, PFF and whatever else. 
Some places are notorious for being generous and giving the 3rd man in a credit for a tackle he really had nothing to do with. 

If a player makes a tackle 6 yards downfield on a run because they failed at stopping it sooner, is that actually a good tackle? Shouldn't be. 

[masterpanthera_t]

IMO, not all tackles should be valued equally.

Dominating your OL and getting into the backfield for TFL > Dominating your OL and getting into the backfield, making the RB cutback and into one of your teammates > Neutralizing the OL and making a tackle because the RB tried to hit your gap > Making a tackle when one of your teammates funnels a play towards you (although in some cases the team defensive scheme is designed for this, so in a sense you are doing your job here), but your teammate who funneled the play towards you is still the guy who really "forced" the play > Getting pushed back off the LOS and making a tackle a few yards off the LOS simply because the the path of the run finally led the RB a few or many yards downfield towards where you were running, anticipating, etc. (you still get a B+ to A for hustle and effort) > getting blocked and giving up on the play.

With that said, I'm not evaluating which of the above categories Peko fits in predominantly. I know a few off the top of my head that he definitely doesn't fit in. Like the first category and the last category. And also I don't necessarily know the defensive scheme to comment on Peko's responsibilities on a play.

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 01:14 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This post makes my head hurt and explains a lot about your opinions.

I'll try to go slowly.

1. You make sure Geno isn't being doubled by not being easily blocked 1 on 1. As the NT your job, especially on run plays, is to force the OL to use two men to stop you. When you get blocked by one man, as he has done the last several years, you allow the OL to double on the DE or 3T. These players are not typically built for this. They are made for getting disruption and getting behind the LOS. 

2. This doesn't mean Peko should NEVER do this. That is just typical fred crazy speak. It means if he can beat the block he should. If he beats the block enough they will pull the double off Geno and double down on him. Want to guess why they rarely take the double off of Geno? Because Peko isn't a big enough threat to consistently beat one on one blocks for them to worry about it.

3. As I have said, a lot of Peko's "tackle" stats come from his hustle and the fact he plays harder than most players. It's part of what made him a very good player in the past. But he's been in decline for at least 3 years now. The NT position is brutal and thankless. You hit a wall and it can go from good to very bad almost over night. He won't be the first good player this has happened to and he won't be the last

Geno will get doubled no matter what Peko does unless Peko starts playing like an All-Pro. 

[fredtoast]

(09-29-2015, 01:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If a player makes a tackle 6 yards downfield on a run because they failed at stopping it sooner, is that actually a good tackle? Shouldn't be. 

So you think it is better to let the ball carrier continue down field than tackle him 6 yards past the LOS?

All tackles are good tackles.  Because if there was no tackle there would be a lot more yards gained by the ball carrier.

[Goalpost]

Honestly, I think tackles is a film type thing and how you matched up on a play. Going off just the raw data can be misleading. There's just a lot of factors.

As an example, New England beat Jacksonville 51-17 last week.
Total tackles credited to NE...41
Total tackles credited to Jacksonville...68

[djs7685]

(09-29-2015, 01:51 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Honestly, I think tackles is a film type thing and how you matched up on a play.  Going off just the raw data can be misleading.  There's just a lot of factors.

As an example, New England beat Jacksonville 51-17 last week.  
Total tackles credited to NE...41
Total tackles credited to Jacksonville...68

Obviously the Jacksonville defenders are much better than New England's at every position. :snark: