BUNGLE 4 BURROW COMPLETE

[fredtoast]

(12-23-2019, 04:46 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I understand the system piece making it questionable, but how much different are the players this year vs last year he is playing with? If they were so amazing why didnt he put up this numbers last year? 

His #1 target, Ja'Marr Chase (1498 yds, 20.5 avg, 18 tds) was a freshman last year who barely played (23 receptions, 313 yds, 3 tds).

His #1 TE, Thaddeus Moss, did not even play for LSU last year.

His #3 WR, Terrace Marshall, was also a freshman last year who barely played (12 receptions)

His #1 RB last year, Nick Brossette, just had 14 receptions.  This year's #1 RB, Clyde Edwards-Helaire, has 50. 

[*Synric*]

(12-23-2019, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Burrow was elite at all of those things we would have seen better numbers last year



Are you saying that every college QB who puts up big numbers will be a good NFL QB?

Lol you scout the player in the system. In 2018 he was in an power run system that didnt lend to big QB numbers.

Look at Jim Harbaugh in Michigan He is running a near Identical system as LSU and has NFL caliber talent but Shea Patterson is not on the same level as Joe Burrow.


I get you're pushing the omg it's the system and hes a 1 year wonder narrative but its wrong so so very wrong.

[Rubekahn29]

(12-23-2019, 05:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His #1 target, Ja'Marr Chase (1498 yds, 20.5 avg, 18 tds) was a freshman last year who barely played (23 receptions, 313 yds, 3 tds).

His #1 TE, Thaddeus Moss, did not even play for LSU last year.

His #3 WR, Terrace Marshall, was also a freshman last year who barely played (12 receptions)

His #1 RB last year, Nick Brossette, just had 14 receptions.  This year's #1 RB, Clyde Edwards-Helaire, has 50. 

I see. Still think Burrow needs to go #1. There's putting up numbers, then there is doing what he is doing. Unless he flops these next two games, the team would be dumb to pass on him. 

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 05:10 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I see. Still think Burrow needs to go #1. There's putting up numbers, then there is doing what he is doing. Unless he flops these next two games, the team would be dumb to pass on him. 

Palmer was #1 and Burrow put up better numbers in BOTH his Junior and Senior years, and did it in a way harder conference in a less QB friendly system than Pete Carrols that Palmer ran. Its not even close. Folks who cant see why Burrow is the clear cut #1 have a bias blocking their view somewhere plain and simple.

[Rubekahn29]

(12-23-2019, 05:15 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Palmer was #1 and Burrow put up better numbers in BOTH his Junior and Senior years, and did it in a way harder conference in a less QB friendly system than Pete Carrols that Palmer ran. Its not even close. Folks who cant see why Burrow is the clear cut #1 have a bias blocking their view somewhere plain and simple.

I think people are just scared of the one year wonder. I think they are legitimate concerns, but if we do not go with him and he becomes a great franchise QB, it'll be much worse than taking him and him being a bust. 

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 05:18 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I think people are just scared of the one year wonder. I think they are legitimate concerns, but if we do not go with him and he becomes a great franchise QB, it'll be much worse than taking him and him being a bust. 

I understand that......I personally dont think he's a one year wonder. He had a QB rating of 133 his junior season. He put up better stats than Palmer did his junior season and Burrow did it in less favorable circumstances at LSU than Palmer did during Pete Carrols USC teams. I just dont see the one hit wonder in that. Akili Smith? Yes, one hit wonder. Burrow not so much. People are still burned about Akili and Klingler. Truth is, since then we've done ok at drafting QBs.

[bengaloo]

Joe Burrow threw for 2894 yards, with 16TDs and 5 Ints and had a 133 QB rating his junior year on a run heavy team and was his first year as a starter.
How in the living heck is that bad lol? That is more yards than Dalton's best year of college when he was a Sr in his 4th year in the same system.

One hit wonder my ass lol.

[*pally*]

Keep in mind that we didn't just achieve the Bungle for Burrow. We also claim first place in the waiver line through week 3 of next season. This will be important coming out of training camp

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 04:42 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Dalton played the same Steelers team with the same QB and scored 3 points. It is not a guarantee we win with him. Dalton is 2-16 in his last 18 starts. Burrow's potential > greater than Dalton's known. I feel like you think if we draft Burrow we don't have any other draft picks. Look at Joe Thomas. One of the greatest OTs of this generation. 0 playoff appearances. Our last number 1 draft pick at least got us 2 appearances. The potential of the team goes up exponentially with Burrow over an offensive lineman. 

I disagree and I have laid out my case. 

Thus far though, I haven't seen anyone counter to my case with anything more than "I think Burrow is special and will be good, so he must be!"

Our 2nd round QB got us 5 playoff appearances.  I really wish he didn't get injured in 2015 as that would have silenced even his harshest of critics.

I didn't say we do win against the Steelers, but that our chances of winning would have better than rolling with Finley.  Even so, if you noticed I didn't automatically change our record just because I posed that Dalton doesn't get benched. 

Sure you can go b the last 18 starts since that helps your case, but do you think Burrow in the same situation produces a better record than 2-16?  I don't.  I haven't seen anything posted or video that makes me think otherwise.

A better OLine would make any QB a better QB.  I still curse 2012 for us to pass over DeCastro for Kirkpatrick and then trading with the Patriots and taking Zeitler after Pittsburgh took DeCastro.  I think that was Piano Man, claiming that he doesn't need top end talent.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 04:43 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I think 2-16 in last 18 starts is more relevant. 

Let us look at those last 18 starts then.... funny how you don't take the whole season last year but whatever.


Eifert injured, Green injured, OLine of Cedric and Fisher, who both were bust.  Price injured, and a bust.  No running game as Mixon just not getting it done.  Poor coaching and scheme.  As much as you point to the last 18 starts, to understand what type of QB Dalton is you have to look at 2015 and even 16, when he lost Green again and still did pretty good with what he had.

Burrow couldn't have produced and with Green, it will be interesting to see what he can do.  I don't expect much, but hey, why not?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 05:15 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Palmer was #1 and Burrow put up better numbers in BOTH his Junior and Senior years, and did it in a way harder conference in a less QB friendly system than Pete Carrols that Palmer ran. Its not even close. Folks who cant see why Burrow is the clear cut #1 have a bias blocking their view somewhere plain and simple.

In college....

I don't have a problem with Burrow being the 1st round pick.  I don't blame him for the hype.  However the team is gonna suffer because of our handling of our last QB.  We will select Burrow.  I hope he does well.  However I have a feeling we are headed into the 90s again.

I don't know if you lived through that decade, but it sucked.

[Rubekahn29]

(12-23-2019, 06:29 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Let us look at those last 18 starts then.... funny how you don't take the whole season last year but whatever.


Eifert injured, Green injured, OLine of Cedric and Fisher, who both were bust.  Price injured, and a bust.  No running game as Mixon just not getting it done.  Poor coaching and scheme.  As much as you point to the last 18 starts, to understand what type of QB Dalton is you have to look at 2015 and even 16, when he lost Green again and still did pretty good with what he had.

Burrow couldn't have produced and with Green, it will be interesting to see what he can do.  I don't expect much, but hey, why not?

Please enlighten me on the last great QB who went 2-16 in 18 starts after their first 5 years. 

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 06:36 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: In college....

I don't have a problem with Burrow being the 1st round pick.  I don't blame him for the hype.  However the team is gonna suffer because of our handling of our last QB.  We will select Burrow.  I hope he does well.  However I have a feeling we are headed into the 90s again.

I don't know if you lived through that decade, but it sucked.

Ive been a Bengal fan actively since about 81. How is the handling of our last QB going to make us suffer anymore than we already are? Everyone and their brother and their brothers girlfriends mother knows whoever is QB needs a way better OL than we currently have. I just cant buy this logic at all. I mean trust me, I'm very skeptical of ZT at this point, but I do think he realizes enough about football to know we need a complete OL rebuild, and at least a couple WR upgrades before this offense will be worth a hoot. As limited as his experi3ence may be, Im willing to bet my own hard earned money that he gets this just as well as us fans do. I just cant see where they will draft Burrow and then all the sudden drop everything else and run to lalaland? Meh. I give these coaches more credit than that. Otherwise they would be mailmen and insurance salesmen.

[*ochocincos*]

It's not done yet. They still have to select him.

[*psychdoctor*]

Both qb and de have bust potential. How many years have young produce at elite level?

Bengals have issues with first round injuries which it's why I want Tua even less. Bengals need 2 IOL and OT this draft no matter who is the first pick. They cannot fix every thing in one year. If they trade down Herbert is the type of QB Mike Brown likes.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 06:39 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Please enlighten me on the last great QB who went 2-16 in 18 starts after their first 5 years. 

Show me another QB that has had their whole team depart with no replacements.... I mean he loses Jones and Sanu and is rewarded with Boyd.... then we get Ross. 

He loses Whitworth, Smith, Zeitler and Bodine and is given Og, Fisher, Price and that is it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-23-2019, 01:41 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Exactly.....


Andy has been hated by fans even before he started playing.  Many wanted us to take Kaepernick or Mallet and were boohooing us taking Dalton.  They have been calling for Dalton's replacement every year for the past 9 years.  

My very first thread here was a PRO ANDY DALTON thread. I was arguing with someone (not on this board) about how I wouldn’t trade Dalton for Luck at the time, because Dalton was so durable, and pretty underrated at the time.

But guess what? Things change. Opinions change. Dalton got plenty of time here, and I’ve been ready to move on for the past couple years.

If you view me as “hater” or that I’m excessively unfair towards Dalton that’s just because the two camps are so divided. This board is actually VERY pro Dalton believe it or not. All of the mods, and most “popular” posters are huge Dalton fans (hence your rep). Some of us who’ve been frustrated with Dalton just get a little tired of nothing ever being his fault. Is what it is at this point.

As far as your weird hatred for Mixon (which feels personal not about his play), did you happen to see Bill Belichick’s comment about Mixon being one of the best RB’s in the league? I’m sure you’ll just hand wave it away and say he was just being “nice” or something (Belichick? Lol), but it’s just something to consider. Remember, opinions CAN change...

[OswaldsLegacy]

(12-23-2019, 06:45 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Ive been a Bengal fan actively since about 81. How is the handling of our last QB going to make us suffer anymore than we already are? Everyone and their brother and their brothers girlfriends mother knows whoever is QB needs a way better OL than we currently have. I just cant buy this logic at all. I mean trust me, I'm very skeptical of ZT at this point, but I do think he realizes enough about football to know we need a complete OL rebuild, and at least a couple WR upgrades before this offense will be worth a hoot. As limited as his experi3ence may be, Im willing to bet my own hard earned money that he gets this just as well as us fans do. I just cant see where they will draft Burrow and then all the sudden drop everything else and run to lalaland? Meh. I give these coaches more credit than that. Otherwise they would be mailmen and insurance salesmen.

As I have stated many times...

We still haven't replaced the OLine.  Why make another hole on the team without fixing the biggest problem on the team?

If we bailed on a good to decent QB for his struggles, how long before we bail on Burrow?

Remember we bailed on Palmer, who was supposed to be a great QB. 

Taking Burrow doesn't make any real sense... except for to get kudos by the media and hope to excite the fanbase.

The only reason we have to take him is because of the way we treated Dalton.  I doubt ZT will man up and admit that he erred in benching Dalton and to commit to him for at least another year.  Instead ZT is using Dalton as his scapegoat and doing what other HCs do and taking the coward approach and saying that Dalton wasn't "his guy".

Well if he takes Burrow, then Burrow had better be his guy.  I will NOT be forgiving if we fail to make the postseason next year.  Since I truly do believe that with Dalton and a good OLine and tagging Green (if not extending him) will lead to more success.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-23-2019, 03:25 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Fine... it isn't like you have anything worthwhile to say either.  Your analysis are repetitious and boring.  It is like reading Skip Bayless.

He’s one of the funniest members on this board.

You? You just seem like a jaded Andy Dalton super-fan who’s here to antagonize anyone you consider a “hater.”

[bengaloo]

(12-23-2019, 07:14 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: As I have stated many times...

We still haven't replaced the OLine.  Why make another hole on the team without fixing the biggest problem on the team?

If we bailed on a good to decent QB for his struggles, how long before we bail on Burrow?

Remember we bailed on Palmer, who was supposed to be a great QB. 

Taking Burrow doesn't make any real sense... except for to get kudos by the media and hope to excite the fanbase.

The only reason we have to take him is because of the way we treated Dalton.  I doubt ZT will man up and admit that he erred in benching Dalton and to commit to him for at least another year.  Instead ZT is using Dalton as his scapegoat and doing what other HCs do and taking the coward approach and saying that Dalton wasn't "his guy".

Well if he takes Burrow, then Burrow had better be his guy.  I will NOT be forgiving if we fail to make the postseason next year.  Since I truly do believe that with Dalton and a good OLine and tagging Green (if not extending him) will lead to more success.  

Palmer bailed on us plain and simple.

Benching Dalton happened AFTER we were eliminated from playoff contention. He had every right, as a first year coach to see what he had in Finley. Not too mention, Dalton was frazzled and flustered and that whole thing needed an intervention for Daltons sake as much as everyone elses. Once you are eliminated from playoff contention, is basically means as a team you didnt achieve the goal you set out for and its completely out of reach now. Hence the season was already a failure. Benching Dalton did nothing to futher damage an already failed season. Its clear that ZT isnt interested in building around a 30 year old QB. From a winning, investment and business standpoint, its a good thing he thinks that way.