Veteran Andy > Rookie Joe Burrow

[Wes Mantooth]

Here's my list of starting QB's from this year that, regardless of stats, I would've take Andy over for this past season to build a team. I'd really be curious to see who is brave enough to actually support their argument, that they ALL are currently actually better QB's.

-Kyle Allen
-Case Keenum/Dwayne Haskins
-Mitchell Trubinsky
-Jacoby Brissett
-Gardner Minshew
-Sam Darnold
-Drew Locke/Joe Flacco
-Marcus Mariotta/Ryan Tannenhill
-Daniel Jones/Eli Manning
-Mason Rudolph/Mason Hodges
-Josh Rosen/Ryan Fitzpatrick

You've got a blank slate, a new team and you get to choose one current QB for one season. And you really are taking every single one of these guys ovee Andy Dalton? Seriously?

Fwiw, I have Dalton somewhere mixed in with this tier. And I think I'd actually take him iver a handful of these guys...

Dalton, Rivers, Goff, Winston, Murray Mayfield, Carr, Garapolo..

For one season, that's where I'd put him... Above the first list, somewhere sandwiched in the group above.

I'm no more going to deem him worse than every single one of these names, only because of stats, then I wouldve called Joe Mixon the worst running back in the league after 8 games this year. Why? Because I have eyes.

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 09:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No, because I can provide dozens of examples of QBs who had very bad seasons followed by very good seasons based on the coaching and talent around them.

Ken Anderson had a passer rating of 66.9 in 1980 with 6 tds and 13 ints.  The very next year he led the league in passer rating (98.4) and won the MVP with 29 tds and 10 ints.

In 2005 Brett Favre led the league in interceptions (29) with only 20 tds and had a passer rating of 70.9.  In 2007 he had 14 fewer ints, 8 more tds and a rating of 95.7.

And I can provide dozens of examples of a QB that sucked one year sucking the next. 

It has nothing to do with the fact that 2015 was 5 years ago. 

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 08:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No. He didn't finish the season.  

Then Dalton is better than Stafford this year because Stafford did not finish the season.

So he is not 32 of 32.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 09:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I can provide dozens of examples of a QB that sucked one year sucking the next. 

It has nothing to do with the fact that 2015 was 5 years ago. 

Who said anything about 2015.  I said career.  

I am just pointing out how silly it is to cherry pick a player's worst season to judge his talent level. 

You really going to argue that Ryan Tannehill is the best QB in the league?

[Luvnit2]

(01-05-2020, 09:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then Dalton is better than Stafford this year because Stafford did not finish the season.

So he is not 32 of 32.

Bfine hates AD with a passion so his objectivity went out the window a long time ago with him.

AD has a 9 year career, he chooses to use hos worst because it is all he has because how many times over 9 years was AD worst in the NFL as a starter? What is his criteria for worst?

Yards?
YPG?
TD"s
Interceptions?
Rushing TD's

I think his criteria was I hate AD and so do others so I will trash every chance I get.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 09:31 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Bfine hates AD with a passion so his objectivity went out the window a long time ago with him.

AD has a 9 year career, he chooses to use hos worst because it is all he has because how many times over 9 years was AD worst in the NFL as a starter? What is his criteria for worst?

Yards?
YPG?
TD"s
Interceptions?
Rushing TD's

I think his criteria was I hate AD and so do others so I will trash every chance I get.

You guys are ridiculous. He used his worst year because IT JUST HAPPENED. That’s what we’re going to compare a rookie to when determining if he’s an upgrade or not.

Has nothing to do with “hating” the guy.

[Catmandude123]

(01-05-2020, 09:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:  I wouldve called Joe Mixon the worst running back in the league after 8 games this year.  Why? Because I have eyes.

That's why I say Dalton is the worse. I have eyes. You can't claim the line effects Dalton and then say Mixon is the worse back in the league.

[Luvnit2]

(01-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys are ridiculous. He used his worst year because IT JUST HAPPENED. That’s what we’re going to compare a rookie to when determining if he’s an upgrade or not.

Has nothing to do with “hating” the guy.

OK to be fair, I bet Joe Burrow comes no where close to the year he had at LSU in 2019. It is Joe's most recent so fair is fair.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-05-2020, 09:38 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: OK to be fair, I bet Joe Burrow comes no where close to the year he had at LSU in 2019. It is Joe's most recent so fair is fair.

[fredtoast]

(01-05-2020, 09:34 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys are ridiculous. He used his worst year because IT JUST HAPPENED. That’s what we’re going to compare a rookie to when determining if he’s an upgrade or not.

Has nothing to do with “hating” the guy.

But it doesn't prove anything.  If the Bengals improve the line and receivers then Burrow may have better numbers than Dalton had this year, but not better numbers than Dalton would have playing with the 2020 talent Burrow will have.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-05-2020, 09:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But it doesn't prove anything.  If the Bengals improve the line and receivers then Burrow may have better numbers than Dalton had this year, but not better numbers than Dalton would have playing with the 2020 talent Burrow will have.

Here's Dalton's career average numbers:

Rating - 87.5
Comp. % - 62 %
Yards - 3,510
TD's - 22

2019 numbers: remember in 13 games

Rating - 78.3
Comp % - 59.5 %
Yards - 3,494
TD's - 16

I'm not seeing this massive difference especially - 3 games 

[*bfine32*]

(01-05-2020, 09:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here's my list of starting QB's from this year that, regardless of stats, I would've take Andy over for this past season to build a team. I'd really be curious to see who is brave enough to actually support their argument, that they ALL are currently actually better QB's.

-Kyle Allen
-Case Keenum/Dwayne Haskins
-Mitchell Trubinsky
-Jacoby Brissett
-Gardner Minshew
-Sam Darnold
-Drew Locke/Joe Flacco
-Marcus Mariotta/Ryan Tannenhill
-Daniel Jones/Eli Manning
-Mason Rudolph/Mason Hodges
-Josh Rosen/Ryan Fitzpatrick

You've got a blank slate, a new team and you get to choose one current QB for one season.  And you really are taking every single one of these guys ovee Andy Dalton?  Seriously?

Fwiw, I have Dalton somewhere mixed in with this tier. And I think I'd actually take him iver a handful of these guys...

Dalton, Rivers, Goff, Winston, Murray Mayfield, Carr, Garapolo..

For one season, that's where I'd put him... Above the first list, somewhere sandwiched in the group above.

I'm no more going to deem him worse than every single one of these names, only because of stats, then I wouldve called Joe Mixon the worst running back in the league after 8 games this year.  Why? Because I have eyes.

Let's take away the 2 that started because their starter was injured (Carolina and Pittsburg; replace them with Big Ben and Cam) and Ill pick all. 

[Shake n Blake]

(01-05-2020, 08:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No. He didn't finish the season.  But that's where he was rated

But he was better than he is 4 years later. 

Lots of QB's miss a few games (and still qualify). Dalton missed almost as many starts this season as he did in 2015, but that's not stopping you from saying he's the 32nd best QB because "that's where he's rated". Obviously you didn't have Dalton as the 2nd best QB after 2015, because I'm sure you were aware it was an anomaly. Just as you should be aware that circumstances made 2019 an anomaly.

I would think even the staunchest Dalton hater would admit that he's better than how he played in 2019. I keep hearing that no one blames Dalton 100% for our problems, yet we can't admit that those problems may have affected QB performance just a little bit?

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2020, 12:24 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lots of QB's miss a few games (and still qualify). Dalton missed almost as many starts this season as he did in 2015, but that's not stopping you from saying he's the 32nd best QB because "that's where he's rated". Obviously you didn't have Dalton as the 2nd best QB after 2015, because I'm sure you were aware it was an anomaly. Just as you should be aware that circumstances made 2019 an anomaly.

I would think even the staunchest Dalton hater would admit that he's better than how he played in 2019. I keep hearing that no one blames Dalton 100% for our problems, yet we can't admit that those problems may have affected QB performance just a little bit?

Which current starting NFL QB would you take Dalton over? 

As to the anomaly: He was 26th last year. 

[CJD]

(01-04-2020, 06:52 PM)N_B Wrote: Dalton is as good as gone.  You don’t pay a backup 17$m when you have a better QB on a rookie deal...the latter is football salary cap nirvana

We'll see. I could see us trading him, but I don't think I could see us releasing him.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-06-2020, 12:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Which current starting NFL QB would you take Dalton over? 

As to the anomaly: He was 26th last year. 

Mitch Trubisky
Kyle Allen
Sam Darnold
Jacoby Brissett
Baker Mayfield
Jameis Winston
Ryan Fitzpatrick

As to the anomaly: His 2019 rating is 11.3 points lower than his 2018 rating and 2.1 points lower than his previous low, which he posted as a rookie. If that's not an anomaly, I don't know what is.

Now answer my question - do you believe the state of the team had any effect on Dalton's performance in 2019?

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2020, 12:37 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Mitch Trubisky
Kyle Allen
Sam Darnold
Jacoby Brissett
Baker Mayfield
Jameis Winston
Ryan Fitzpatrick

As to the anomaly: His 2019 rating is 11.3 points lower than his 2018 rating and 2.1 points lower than his previous low, which he posted as a rookie. If that's not an anomaly, I don't know what is.

Now answer my question - do you believe the state of the team had any effect on Dalton's performance in 2019?

Peep 2015. 2019 was less than 10 points off his career rating.

As to your list: Can Newton is the starter in Carolina and we'll just disagree on the rest

To answer your question: Yes, and I believe Andy's performance had an equal effect on the team. 

[Shake n Blake]

(01-06-2020, 12:45 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Peep 2015

As to your list: Can Newton is the starter in Carolina and we'll just disagree on the rest

To answer your question: Yes, and I believe Andy's performance had an equal effect on the team. 

Peep 2015 and 2019. Neither were indicative of the QB Dalton is. I guess one of us is being fair.

As to my list: Allen is the only Carolina QB to qualify (which seems important to you) this year, and who knows if Newton will be back next year? But that's just one guy on my list.

If you believe the poor state of the team had an effect on Dalton's performance (stats), why are you using his stat ranking to say he's the 32nd best QB? You don't think Dalton is better than some QB's ranked ahead of him that were in better situations?

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2020, 12:52 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Peep 2015 and 2019. Neither were indicative of the QB Dalton is. I guess one of us is being fair.

As to my list: Allen is the only Carolina QB to qualify (which seems important to you) this year, and who knows if Newton will be back next year? But that's just one guy on my list.

If you believe the poor state of the team had an effect on Dalton's performance (stats), why are you using his stat ranking to say he's the 32nd best QB? You don't think Dalton is better than some QB's ranked ahead of him that were in better situations?

Andy Dalton career passer rating: 87.5

Andy Dalton 2019 passer rating: 78.5 (-9.8)

Andy Dalton 2015 passer rating 106.3 (+18.8)

Yeah, they're both probably equally outliers. 

I'm saying he's the 32nd best QB because I can name 31 (or more) others I take over him. His rating just supports that.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-06-2020, 12:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Andy Dalton career passer rating: 87.5

Andy Dalton 2019 passer rating: 78.5 (-9.8)

Andy Dalton 2015 passer rating 106.3 (+18.8)

Yeah, they're both probably equally outliers. 

I'm saying he's the 32nd best QB because I can name 31 (or more) others I take over him. His rating just supports that.

You're not really helping your case by showing that his 2019 season rating was nearly 10 points below his career rating. This isn't a debate over which season was a bigger anomaly. The basic point here is that 2019 was an anomaly. Would it kill you to admit that?

To your last line, there's nothing to debate because that's your opinion. I think Dalton is better than the guys I listed, some of which were barely above Dalton in passer rating, despite far better situations (Mayfield comes to mind, among others). His rating - if we accept that it was an anomaly, dragged down by his situation - proves nothing.