Duke Tobin on why the Bengals didn't trade veteran players

[WeezyBengal]

(01-23-2020, 07:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm confused. Does Tobin not realize that when you TRADE players you get something back as well? That you're not just GIVING the players to other teams? 

I get it. Generally, an established veteran will be a better player than a rookie, but it's not just about making the team better NOW. It's about making the team BETTER. 

The fact of the matter is that those veteran players that Tobin is so high on and refuses to trade were the same players that contributed to a 2 win season. 

Sure, its not solely their fault, but at some point you have to take a real hard look at where this team is at. You have an aging core of vets who are nearing the end of their contracts playing on an awful team. 

The timing to trade some of those players could not have been better and the Bengals basically sat on their ass and did nothing. They don't understand how a rebuild works. 

[WeezyBengal]

(01-23-2020, 02:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: People do realize that when you trade a player their money comes off the books, right?

It's not as simple as saying, "There's no way we improve by replacing Geno Atkins wity a 3rd or 4th round pick.". You have the pick + the cap space.

Geno Atkins vs. a 3rd rounder + 12 mil to spend in FA is an entirely different discussion than simply Geno Atkins vs. a 3rd rounder.

You lose some of your better players but you'll also gain the ability to sign better players, in addition to young draft prospects.

We can all argue about the demand and compensation until the cows come home, but don't gloss over the fact that the above is true.

This is a great point. This team could have basically have been rebuilt over night if they would have traded some vets for picks and cleared cap space to sign some decent free agents. 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-23-2020, 05:53 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: who trades for an injured player on the last year of his deal.. so basically renting a player that cant play for that year.


Basically no body.

Well, we do know there were some setbacks that delayed his recovery. There could have been a chance where a team may have offered something before Green had a setback. Also, a team who was very likely to make the playoffs may have been willing in hopes that he could have been ready at some point in the playoffs. When you're talking about a Day 3 pick vs potentially having AJ Green for the playoffs, I'd think you'd take your chance on AJ Green for the playoffs and give up a Day 3 pick.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2020, 08:27 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: They had no problem trading Ochocinco for a 5th and 6th the following year.

I guess they forgot.

No he did not forget.  Tobin was talking about trading away good players.

The fact is that Tobin said the exact same thing as any other NFL GM would have said.  Unless a player is in the last year of his contract rebuiulding teams don't trade away guys who are still productive.

There is really only one player they could have possibly gotten any value for last year and that was Dalton, but we have no idea if any team was even interested.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-23-2020, 08:44 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Those valuable players had won 0 or 1 game by the trading deadline.  His logic is baffling except for one angle.  Trade Atkins and the draft pick(s) won't be as good for a year or more, best case.  Same for Red or Dunlop.  They think the "turnaround" is right around the corner so no need to wait for all those draft picks to become stars.  Of course the Bengals haven't had a draft pick become a star since AJ Green, almost 10 years ago.
But Tobin's got to dream.

For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-24-2020, 11:20 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The timing to trade some of those players could not have been better and the Bengals basically sat on their ass and did nothing. 

That's not true. Some of them went skiing.

[jj22]

(01-24-2020, 11:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No he did not forget.  Tobin was talking about trading away good players.

The fact is that Tobin said the exact same thing as any other NFL GM would have said.  Unless a player is in the last year of his contract rebuiulding teams don't trade away guys who are still productive.

There is really only one player they could have possibly gotten any value for last year and that was Dalton, but we have no idea if any team was even interested.

If Sanu can fetch a 2nd round pick, they likely turned down a first round pick for Green.

As for Dalton, they didn't even try.

[jj22]

(01-24-2020, 11:36 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

It won't change as now it's Joe "Burrows".

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-23-2020, 01:18 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Pretty bad logic IMO. Why doesn't he ask the 49ers how their turnaround went?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/duke-tobin-explains-why-bengals-didnt-host-fire-sale-at-trade-deadline/ar-BBZfRQy?ocid=spartandhp

“We are not trying to get better by losing our best players. In our opinion, that’s not the path forward. Lose your best players, how do you get better by doing that? We have guys who clearly some teams were interested in. Well guess what? We are interested in having them, too. They are good players. We weren’t good enough as a football team. Now if we’re going to lose players, how does that improve us? I don’t think any of those (veterans) are done. We think all those guys have life in their NFL career and are going to be a part of our turnaround as we go.”

I wish there would be a gag order on all Bengal leadership (oxymoron, I know) until after the draft.  Only the Bengals can find a way to piss on a city that has great enthusiasm and energy for what should be coming.  Just stop talking, pinheads.  If you don't do the smart thing and address a few MASSIVE whiffs in the draft by signing some key FAs, then you will be rightfully hammered.  For now, let us dream about supporting an actually capable franchise.  

[804 fan]

(01-23-2020, 02:02 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Thanks!

A bunch of nothing and definitely not their best players. The second pick most likely was a swap for the 3rd or something like that because I doubt they traded it away for nothing let alone to get better by giving it away.

[804 fan]

(01-24-2020, 11:36 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

Exactly, finally because I thought I was the only one having a issue with this.

[fredtoast]

(01-24-2020, 11:58 AM)jj22 Wrote: If Sanu can fetch a 2nd round pick, they likely turned down a first round pick for Green.

[grampahol]

I think one underlying problem is that Mike Brown generally views trading players akin to flesh trading and as a skin game. He's stated as much in the past and I don't think that philosophy has changed much over the years. He seems to take that view regardless of injuries and generally, though not exclusively only does it when the player doesn't want to play for him anymore.
That's a real problem in the league and rebuilding a team. The rest of the league knows where he's at with it so they're reluctant to even bother asking knowing the answers ahead of time.

[*Nately120*]

(01-24-2020, 11:36 AM)PhilHos Wrote: For the life of me, I don't understand how anyone can claim to be Bengal fan and get the name of one of our best players wrong. It's DunlAp. That'd be like constantly referring to our best WR as AJ Breen or calling our QB Andy Dolton. I'm sorry but this just drives me nuts.

And Packers fans spending 20 years bragging about Farve and Rogers. 

[Luvnit2]

(01-23-2020, 02:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote:
Yea, the logic is flawed.

1) A player like AJ Green is now a FA. There's no reason he couldn't have been traded for a draft pick mid-season and then come back to the Bengals as a FA. Was it worth not getting extra pick(s) for the sake of being able to negotiate with that person prior to the FA period?

2) Tobin's response is like someone who is thinking too short term. Is it worth more having that veteran "best" player for 1-2 years or getting draft pick(s) to develop a new core? If the intent/expectation is to compete for a Super Bowl this year or next year, you go with the veteran. If the team is nowhere close, you go the latter.

3) Like always, they are overvaluing their own guys. They need to realize that just because a guy they have might be good, they might be able to find someone better outside. Yes, there is risk involved, but you can't grow without taking risk.

You have to be able to pass a physical to be traded. AJ was not fit at the trade deadline.

As for 49ers, what did I miss them trading away great vets and getting draft picks in return? I saw them trade away some average players and trade for a QB from the Pats. Then add some guys. Staley is still there as is a lot of vets.

[t3r3e3]

(01-23-2020, 02:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: People do realize that when you trade a player their money comes off the books, right?

It's not as simple as saying, "There's no way we improve by replacing Geno Atkins wity a 3rd or 4th round pick.". You have the pick + the cap space.

Geno Atkins vs. a 3rd rounder + 12 mil to spend in FA is an entirely different discussion than simply Geno Atkins vs. a 3rd rounder.

You lose some of your better players but you'll also gain the ability to sign better players, in addition to young draft prospects.

We can all argue about the demand and compensation until the cows come home, but don't gloss over the fact that the above is true.

Monetary savings are more important when a team is an active participant in FA and is near/at/over the cap. The Bengals are none of those things. Savings would get rolled over for the inevitable “have to extend player x” 2-3 off seasons from now. The only way the savings would make sense in Bengals land is if the team had drafted well over the past 3 seasons and had a glut of guys coming up on second contracts who were worth extending.

[t3r3e3]

(01-24-2020, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You have to be able to pass a physical to be traded. AJ was not fit at the trade deadline.

As for 49ers, what did I miss them trading away great vets and getting draft picks in return? I saw them trade away some average players and trade for a QB from the Pats. Then add some guys. Staley is still there as is a lot of vets.

The 9’ers also has several key vets retire unexpectedly. That partially led to their performance downturn, but most of the downturn was due to the ineptitude of Trent Baalke.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-24-2020, 11:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This is a great point. This team could have basically have been rebuilt over night if they would have traded some vets for picks and cleared cap space to sign some decent free agents. 

Not true at all.
And we don't know what their off-season plan is.

Based on Year over Year history, we know they won't do a lot in FA.
Based on what they did when Marvin first got here, they were quite active in FA and got players Marvin wanted.

To me, I suspect they will be active again for ZT. Also any extra salary can not be rolled over this year, as the CBA has not been settled yet so MB HAS to spend that money. Then there is if we cut/trade a few where productivity does not equal salary, then we can easily jump up to the $90 mil range in free money, so with that kinda money, signing 5-6 good vets isn't out of the question in holes that we need them in. However, trading away our best for draft picks, puts us further back. Now we have another hole to fix.

[BengalsRocker]

This debate really only comes down to who were the players and what were they offered?

We can only speculate.

If it was something like a 4th or 5th rounder for Atkins or Dunloop, then yeah they can stick it!

If it was a good player and the offer was decent multiple picks like a 2/5 or 3/5 it certainly should have been considered.

I highly doubt even our best player(AJ)would command a 1st pick at this point.

Say Dalton could bring you a 3/5 and you know you're going to draft a QB you'd better grab it whilst you can before the deadline.

Especially if you plan on cutting the player in the offseason anyways.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-24-2020, 02:27 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not true at all.
And we don't know what their off-season plan is.

Based on Year over Year history, we know they won't do a lot in FA.
Based on what they did when Marvin first got here, they were quite active in FA and got players Marvin wanted.

To me, I suspect they will be active again for ZT. Also any extra salary can not be rolled over this year, as the CBA has not been settled yet so MB HAS to spend that money. Then there is if we cut/trade a few where productivity does not equal salary, then we can easily jump up to the $90 mil range in free money, so with that kinda money, signing 5-6 good vets isn't out of the question in holes that we need them in. However, trading away our best for draft picks, puts us further back. Now we have another hole to fix.

Yeah, the last time we had the #1 pick and a new HC the FO spent money in FA and we will have a lot of dough to spend as 
long as we trade or cut Dalton and don't use the Tag on Green. This frees up like 35 mil right here and this is not including 
Glenn's salary that will probably be gone with Jonah coming back.