Duke Tobin on why the Bengals didn't trade veteran players

[BengalsRocker]

(01-28-2020, 05:00 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No. As much as I wanted Alexander gone, he isn’t responsible for not re-signing Whitworth or Zeitler. The people directly responsible for that mess aren’t gone. They still haven’t fixed the offensive line.

You missed the point.

Alexander was certainly responsible for drafting and cultivating the talent to replace those players.

That was on his shoulders. 

He whiffed and tried to justify his picks even though they were clearly not going to come close to growing into those starting positions.


Here is what The Family & Tobin had to deal with:

Whit wanted a longer term contract and was old with recent injury issues.

Zeitler got overpaid by the Browns just like most players who leave us to sign with them.

That was probably one of the weakest seasons that he had posted with us.

In conclusion I stated that in hindsight they should have just overpaid Zeitler and should learn from that situation.

I'm not going to say all posters agreed with how they handled Whitworth at the time but there were a lot who understood their situation.

I guess I'd have to say if reports are true that them thinking that Whit was just going to take what they offered by team loyalty was ridiculous.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-28-2020, 05:00 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No. As much as I wanted Alexander gone, he isn’t responsible for not re-signing Whitworth or Zeitler. The people directly responsible for that mess aren’t gone. They still haven’t fixed the offensive line.

Alexander thought Ogbuehi was the most pro-ready lineman he's ever seen.

He said he could play well at every position on the line, even Center, which he had never played. 

What a doofus.

He was obsessed with Cedric.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2015/11/11/9712486/paul-alexander-impressed-with-cedric-ogbuehis-tuesday-practice

Here's another nugget about Fisher and Ced. LMAO

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2018/01/17/paul-alexander-goes-to-bat-for-cedric-ogbuehi-and-jake-fisher-on-his-way-out-the-door/

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-29-2020, 07:40 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: You missed the point.

Alexander was certainly responsible for drafting and cultivating the talent to replace those players.

That was on his shoulders. 

He whiffed and tried to justify his picks even though they were clearly not going to come close to growing into those starting positions.


Here is what The Family & Tobin had to deal with:

Whit wanted a longer term contract and was old with recent injury issues.

Zeitler got overpaid by the Browns just like most players who leave us to sign with them.

That was probably one of the weakest seasons that he had posted with us.

In conclusion I stated that in hindsight they should have just overpaid Zeitler and should learn from that situation.

I'm not going to say all posters agreed with how they handled Whitworth at the time but there were a lot who understood their situation.

I guess I'd have to say if reports are true that them thinking that Whit was just going to take what they offered by team loyalty was ridiculous.

I agree Alexander was responsible scouting and coaching. But, he wasn’t responsible for negotiating contracts, re-signing veterans, or building the roster and the people responsible for that are still around.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-29-2020, 11:56 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I agree Alexander was responsible scouting and coaching. But, he wasn’t responsible for negotiating contracts, re-signing veterans, or building the roster and the people responsible for that are still around.

Well yeah I don't think The Family are going to fire themselves.  LOL No argument there.

Tobin would be the only one they could and probably should have fired.

Alexander's ability to judge draft choices and coach them into replacing those players that he felt strongly were the future of the O-Line directly affected some of their signing decisions.

Many forget that he got the assistant HC job because they really listened to his input.

Paul Alexander and his immense ego not only weighed heavily in guys like Fisher, Ogbuehi, but also our terrible Center position for years.

He'd stand on a table for Bodine and other fails?!?  It was a witch hunt for him???  GTFOH son. 

Like this BS...

With the fifth-round selection of Arizona State offensive lineman Christian Westerman, the Bengals added to their locker room a player who has experience playing offensive tackle and guard in college. Westerman was also worked out at center during the pre-draft process, and the Bengals project him as an interior lineman.


"He's tougher than hell," Alexander said. "He's the toughest kid in the draft.

"When he's the toughest guy in the draft, I put a nice box around [his name], and in this division, you have to. It's not for the feeble."

So what does the selection of tough, non-feeble Westerman mean for Bodine?



Could he one day take Bodine's job?



The short answer? No.


"Let me tell you about Bodine," Alexander said. "He's better than [Bengals guard Clint] Boling was after two years. He's similar to what [fellow Bengals guard Kevin] Zeitler was. Zeitler didn't start out all that great."


Pro Football Focus credited Bodine with a rather massive drop in pass-blocking efficiency between his first and second seasons. In 2014, he was 14th in pass-blocking efficiency, per PFF.



In 2015, he was 25th. He allowed 30 pressures on 571 pass-blocking snaps, according to PFF, and he also registered nine penalties, which was the third-most among league centers.



Still, Alexander is standing by his man.


"This is a young player who's playing with a bunch of veterans who are very good offensive linemen, and he's the last one right now because he's the youngest," Alexander said of the 23-year-old.



"But I don't care what anyone else says.   I think Bodine's going to be a hell of a player."
 


I think the only way this team can recover on O-Line, is if they have competent coaching to evaluate draft choices.

I'm not sold on Zac and his buds for doing this either.

We already know the FO is not going to do much at all there in Free Agency.  

The more we learn about Glenn(the best outside O-Line player they've made a move for)the realization sinks in that they took on someone else's headache for the most part.

[MEBengalsFan]

(01-28-2020, 03:33 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Exactly.

The part they messed up was the talent, if not replace Whit, but to grow into it at least.  The same with Zeitler.

They massively whiffed on all of those drafted and like you said those directly responsible are no longer with the team.

I have to believe that Alexander left a massive mess here by his lack of judgment.

If there's one thing positive that I can say about the front office is I don't blame them for not overpaying Zeitler,  and Whitworth is an anomaly if you say otherwise... you're a damn liar.

After the whole debacle though...  I've come to the conclusion that if a lineman going forward is worth a damn they should overpay and squeeze every last drop of talent out of them.

They're not very good at drafting lately and they'll have to severely overpay in external Free Agency.

That is even if the FA wants to come here.

You are assuming it was Alexander fault that the Bengals made those draft picks. I wasn't in the draft room and I'm pretty sure you weren't either. Without being in those draft rooms we don't know how things played out. For all we know, those could be Tobin picks and not the coaches pick. 

The other thing I have noticed with this Bengal team; it seems like the team is able to find quality players after coaching the senior bowl. All other years the Bengals whiff at picking talent. 

The Bengals don't have a solid scouting staff and that is the problem. The reason why the Bengals can draft quality players after the senior bowl, they get extra time with the players and they get to the players actually playing and how they handle coaching. 

I believe that the Bengals success starts with quality coaching and quality scouting. Both can help improve the team by being able to coach players to perform to a higher level and the ability to find talent that fits the scheme that the offense or defense uses. 

I haven't trusted the scouting since I became a fan and for the coaching; I find them all to inexperience and that may hinder them down the road such as not truly being able to improve the plays on the field. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-29-2020, 01:25 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Well yeah I don't think The Family are going to fire themselves.  LOL No argument there.

Tobin would be the only one they could and probably should have fired.

Alexander's ability to judge draft choices and coach them into replacing those players that he felt strongly were the future of the O-Line directly affected some of their signing decisions.

Many forget that he got the assistant HC job because they really listened to his input.

Paul Alexander and his immense ego not only weighed heavily in guys like Fisher, Ogbuehi, but also our terrible Center position for years.

He'd stand on a table for Bodine and other fails?!?  It was a witch hunt for him???  GTFOH son. 

Like this BS...

With the fifth-round selection of Arizona State offensive lineman Christian Westerman, the Bengals added to their locker room a player who has experience playing offensive tackle and guard in college. Westerman was also worked out at center during the pre-draft process, and the Bengals project him as an interior lineman.


"He's tougher than hell," Alexander said. "He's the toughest kid in the draft.

"When he's the toughest guy in the draft, I put a nice box around [his name], and in this division, you have to. It's not for the feeble."

So what does the selection of tough, non-feeble Westerman mean for Bodine?



Could he one day take Bodine's job?



The short answer? No.


"Let me tell you about Bodine," Alexander said. "He's better than [Bengals guard Clint] Boling was after two years. He's similar to what [fellow Bengals guard Kevin] Zeitler was. Zeitler didn't start out all that great."


Pro Football Focus credited Bodine with a rather massive drop in pass-blocking efficiency between his first and second seasons. In 2014, he was 14th in pass-blocking efficiency, per PFF.



In 2015, he was 25th. He allowed 30 pressures on 571 pass-blocking snaps, according to PFF, and he also registered nine penalties, which was the third-most among league centers.



Still, Alexander is standing by his man.


"This is a young player who's playing with a bunch of veterans who are very good offensive linemen, and he's the last one right now because he's the youngest," Alexander said of the 23-year-old.



"But I don't care what anyone else says.   I think Bodine's going to be a hell of a player."
 


I think the only way this team can recover on O-Line, is if they have competent coaching to evaluate draft choices.

I'm not sold on Zac and his buds for doing this either.

We already know the FO is not going to do much at all there in Free Agency.  

The more we learn about Glenn(the best outside O-Line player they've made a move for)the realization sinks in that they took on someone else's headache for the most part.

The front office saw Ogbuehi’s struggles on the field. The saw Whit was still playing at a high level. Their attempt to low ball Whit failed and they chose to go with Ogbuehi with no back up plan. At the end of the season they still had the cap room to accommodate Whit’s salary.

These same geniuses traded for Glenn coming off an injury. The same geniuses re-signed Hart. Then Blackburn acted like he didn’t have any other options for RT. Because they always have to pull some Kmart blue light special BS. While Alexander’s scouting and coaching played a part, he’s not responsible for Whit and Zeitler not being re-signed.

[BengalChris]

(01-23-2020, 01:18 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Pretty bad logic IMO. Why doesn't he ask the 49ers how their turnaround went?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/duke-tobin-explains-why-bengals-didnt-host-fire-sale-at-trade-deadline/ar-BBZfRQy?ocid=spartandhp

“We are not trying to get better by losing our best players. In our opinion, that’s not the path forward. Lose your best players, how do you get better by doing that? We have guys who clearly some teams were interested in. Well guess what? We are interested in having them, too. They are good players. We weren’t good enough as a football team. Now if we’re going to lose players, how does that improve us? I don’t think any of those (veterans) are done. We think all those guys have life in their NFL career and are going to be a part of our turnaround as we go.”

When you're bad at drafting then the above all makes sense. But when you can trade a guy with a few years left for a brand new guy who has lots of years left then it comes down to picking the right brand new guys in the draft. When you keep striking out in the draft, then, well, I guess it's better to keep the guys who have a few years left in the tank.

 

[Catmandude123]

(01-30-2020, 04:50 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When you're bad at drafting then the above all makes sense. But when you can trade a guy with a few years left for a brand new guy who has lots of years left then it comes down to picking the right brand new guys in the draft. When you keep striking out in the draft, then, well, I guess it's better to keep the guys who have a few years left in the tank.

 

The Bengals plan: The same people + the same two scouts + the same owner making the same mistakes + letting failure continue at their positions with no consequences  = non winning franchise.  They shouldn't be able to screw up the first pick but then again they are the Bengals.

[bengals1969]

(01-27-2020, 02:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You're talking to a Bengal fan who lived in a suburb of Pittsburgh for 15 years starting in the late 90s (not when I started to be a fan, but when I started living in Pittsburgh; I've moved a few times since). Trust me. I know what it takes to be a Bengals fan.

All well and good, I note your patting yourself on the back. People who appoint themselves purity czar's just can't be  trusted.