Taking control of the division

[reuben.ahmed]

(09-30-2015, 07:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Agreed but the shotgun set most of the game against the Ravens worried me.  

If we line up with Dalton under center and Hill behind him regularly, then this team can control games and play with anyone in the league.

What from Hill this year have you seen (consistently) that leads you to believe that? Maybe Dalton is going to be the baller this year that Hill has not fully shown.

Bengals are leaving points up on the board, Oakland game could have been 48, Ravens game we left 2 TDs out there (AJ int and Eifert kicked ball).

It's a shame Hill is a fumbler, if you wanted to go old-school go up by 10 or 14 points and run the clock out, we should be able to. Sometimes the only way to beat Brady and Rodgers is to just keep the ball out of their hands.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 01:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It makes all the difference in the world.  

Taking the ball from standing still is 100% different than being handed the ball running straight ahead (not dead-straight, but for all intents and purposes, it's straight) makes a world of difference because Hill has no momentum going and has to wait for the ball to be handed to him.  When Dalton is under center, Hill is running at about full speed when he gets the ball and he's going downhill.

The defense also has less-time to react and get in position when Hill gets the ball running full-speed ahead, which is where he's at his best.

Dillon starts from standing still whether we are in the shotgun or under center.

And defenses have the exact same run fits if we are in shotgun or under center. There is difference in their ability to "react and get in position".

[bengalhoel]

(10-01-2015, 01:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even if you think the bengals are more talented than the Steelers you shouldn't get upset at people who say we have a better chance of taking control of the division.  It is not like we play the Steelers head to head every weak.  so even if we are the better team we could not take control of the division if the Steelers keep winning.


Anything can happen over the course of a season.  Remember that we started 3-0 last year also.  Injuries could hit at any time.  If we end up with just 10 wins this year and Ben is not injured we might not win the division.

I see what you are saying. I just meant that the Bengals as a whole unit are better than the Steelers, but Big Ben is the best QB in the division. We are in first place right now so we are controlling the division whether he is hurt or not. The Steelers can score with anyone but I think that their defense isn't anywhere near the past defenses they have had. I think that would come back to hurt them, especially against the Ravens who always play them tough anyway.

[BFritz21]

(10-01-2015, 01:53 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: What from Hill this year have you seen (consistently) that leads you to believe that? Maybe Dalton is going to be the baller this year that Hill has not fully shown.

Bengals are leaving points up on the board, Oakland game could have been 48, Ravens game we left 2 TDs out there (AJ int and Eifert kicked ball).

It's a shame Hill is a fumbler, if you wanted to go old-school go up by 10 or 14 points and run the clock out, we should be able to. Sometimes the only way to beat Brady and Rodgers is to just keep the ball out of their hands.

He did it last year and in preseason (and even a bit in the first game), and it's not like he's old or anything.  His abilities make me know that.

(10-01-2015, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dillon starts from standing still whether we are in the shotgun or under center.  

And defenses have the exact same run fits if we are in shotgun or under center.  There is difference in their ability to "react and get in position".

But from the shotgun he has to wait to get the ball or, at most, has a step going forward (usually to the side, though) and doesn't have momentum going with him.  

If Dalton's under center, then Hill can start running downhill from the time the ball is snapped, whereas he has to wait for Dalton to turn to hand him the ball if he's in shotgun, or even if he runs in front of Dalton, he's still not going as fast and he's not going downhill.  

Also, Hill getting the ball that far back lets the defense decide if he has the ball longer before committing to the run.

Hill has at least a step or two head-start when he lines up behind Dalton with Dalton under center, meaning that (a) he's going faster when he gets the ball and (b) the defense has a lot less time to decide on whether or not to commit.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-01-2015, 01:11 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: Vick is not as quick as he used to be.  I'll take my chances with him over Big Jen any day.  With that said, my senses tell me Big Jen will be back for the Nov. 1st Bengals game.  He's been know to play through pain in the past.

(10-01-2015, 01:34 PM)inkblot Wrote: Fear not. Vick is 35

Yeah, very true, thanks made me feel better about the matchup.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 03:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He did it last year and in preseason (and even a bit in the first game), and it's not like he's old or anything.  His abilities make me know that.

And he did that from the shotgun.


His current problems getting rolling have nothing to do with Bengals playing in the shotgun.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 03:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But from the shotgun he has to wait to get the ball or, at most, has a step going forward (usually to the side, though) and doesn't have momentum going with him.  

If Dalton's under center, then Hill can start running downhill from the time the ball is snapped, whereas he has to wait for Dalton to turn to hand him the ball if he's in shotgun, or even if he runs in front of Dalton, he's still not going as fast and he's not going downhill.  

Also, Hill getting the ball that far back lets the defense decide if he has the ball longer before committing to the run.

Hill has at least a step or two head-start when he lines up behind Dalton with Dalton under center, meaning that (a) he's going faster when he gets the ball and (b) the defense has a lot less time to decide on whether or not to commit.

If every play we ran was a dive into the middle of the line then you might have a point.  But when Dalton is under center and we run off tackle or wider Hill has to wait for Dalton to reach him with the ball.

As for giving the defense more time to commit there is absolutely nothing to that.  Defensive players have assignments and responsibilities that do not change no matter who gets the ball or where they get it.  When the ball is snapped D-linemen don't just stand there waiting to decide where to go or what to do based on what the offense does.

[BFritz21]

(10-01-2015, 03:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And he did that from the shotgun.


His current problems getting rolling have nothing to do with Bengals playing in the shotgun.

False.

Here are Hill's split stats from 2014 and shows that he ran from the shotgun only 355 times, as opposed to 355 times from the I formation and 495 times from a lone setback.

Come on, Fred, I thought you were done tossing out false information and assuming people were too stupid to know the difference.

(10-01-2015, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If every play we ran was a dive into the middle of the line then you might have a point.  But when Dalton is under center and we run off tackle or wider Hill has to wait for Dalton to reach him with the ball.

As for giving the defense more time to commit there is absolutely nothing to that.  Defensive players have assignments and responsibilities that do not change no matter who gets the ball or where they get it.  When the ball is snapped D-linemen don't just stand there waiting to decide where to go or what to do based on what the offense does.

I noted that it wasn't a dive into the middle of the line, which you conveniently ignored.

He's running forward, but usually at an angle off-tackle or even wide or even just outside of the middle.  The same link from above shows that he only ran 26 times to the "middle," as opposed to 196 times outside of that.

Defensive players have assignments, but they wait to see what's going on in a play and have to get in position whether it's a run or pass, which they can more easily tell from the shotgun, as I mentioned.  If the QB turns like he's going to hand it to the back, the backers have to get in position to tackle him, take on blockers, or guard the cut-back while also being in position to possibly make the tackle.  In a shotgun, even if the QB motions like he's going to hand it to the back, the backers don't have to commit right away because there's no rush with the back being so deep in the backfield and not running full speed when he would get the ball.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 04:21 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False.

Here are Hill's split stats from 2014 and shows that he ran from the shotgun only 355 times, as opposed to 355 times from the I formation and 495 times from a lone setback.

Come on, Fred, I thought you were done tossing out false information and assuming people were too stupid to know the difference.

The stats you just posted show that Hill averaged 6.6 when in the shotgun formation (54 for 355) and only 4.6 when Dalton was under center (167 for 769).

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 04:21 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:  If the QB turns like he's going to hand it to the back, the backers have to get in position to tackle him, take on blockers, or guard the cut-back while also being in position to possibly make the tackle.  In a shotgun, even if the QB motions like he's going to hand it to the back, the backers don't have to commit right away because there's no rush with the back being so deep in the backfield and not running full speed when he would get the ball.

Although very little of this is correct basically what you are claiming is that LBs have to commit to stopping the run earlier when Dalton is under center than when he is in the shotgun.  This means they would be in position to stop the run sooner, which would mean that it would be HARDER for Hill to gain yards.  

The quicker the LBs can commit to stopping the run the more effective they will be, and you are claiming that they commit earlier when Dalton is under center

[BFritz21]

(10-01-2015, 05:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The stats you just posted show that Hill averaged 6.6 when in the shotgun formation (54 for 355) and only 4.6 when Dalton was under center (167 for 769).

On a lot less attempts.  

That also wasn't your point because you said that he did that from the shotgun, which I proved that he did not.

Typical Fred: when he gets proven wrong, he just changes the argument topic or flat-out lies.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 05:20 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: On a lot less attempts.  

That also wasn't your point because you said that he did that from the shotgun, which I proved that he did not.

Typical Fred: when he gets proven wrong, he just changes the argument topic or flat-out lies.

I'll admit that he ran from the shotgun a lot less if you will admit that he was a lot less effective running the ball when dalton was under center.

The difference in effectiveness is so large that the sample size really doesn't make much difference.  Hill could have averaged 3.5 yards per carry for 100 straight carries from the shotgun and still have a higher average per carry than when Dalton was under center.

And if you look at this years stats he is averaging 3.9 per carry from the shotgun formation (8 for 31) and only 2.8 per carry (33 for 92) when Dalton was under center.


So please explain what you have seen over Hill's career that would make you think he would dominate if Dalton was under center despite the fact that he has only averaged 4.3 (200 for 861) from that formation and 6.2 (62 for 386) from the shotgun formation.

[West Union KennyG]

(10-01-2015, 01:34 PM)inkblot Wrote: Fear not. Vick is 35

He was also available when he was for a good reason.  Anyone could've taken him, nobody wanted him.  

[BFritz21]

(10-01-2015, 05:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll admit that he ran from the shotgun a lot less if you will admit that he was a lot less effective running the ball when dalton was under center.

The difference in effectiveness is so large that the sample size really doesn't make much difference.  Hill could have averaged 3.5 yards per carry for 100 straight carries from the shotgun and still have a higher average per carry than when Dalton was under center.

And if you look at this years stats he is averaging 3.9 per carry from the shotgun formation (8 for 31) and only 2.8 per carry (33 for 92) when Dalton was under center.


So please explain what you have seen over Hill's career that would make you think he would dominate if Dalton was under center despite the fact that he has only averaged 4.3 (200 for 861) from that formation and 6.2 (62 for 386) from the shotgun formation.

For one, just from watching film you can see that he is better from a lone setback doing what I described- getting the ball going downhill.

Second, the fact that 85 yards of his 355 came on one run, meaning that his other runs were far less effective.

You've also failed to address the points of him having to wait for Dalton to hand him the ball and then trying to get momentum when the defense is already in place to stop him.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 06:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Second, the fact that 85 yards of his 355 came on one run, meaning that his other runs were far less effective.

So he is better if we pretend that some things never happened?

Yeah, that is a pretty strong argument, except........


When you take away that 85 yarder Hill still averaged 4.9 per carry running out of the shotgun (62 for 386) and 4.3 when Dalton was under center.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 06:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You've also failed to address the points of him having to wait for Dalton to hand him the ball and then trying to get momentum when the defense is already in place to stop him.

Momentum is a very small part of what makes a running back effective.  In fact "patience" is much more important.  A RB who reads his blockers and finds the hole will be much more effective than a guy who just takes the ball and runs full speed straight ahead.

I have admitted that momentum is important in a straight dive into the middle, but we don't run that very often.

Plus you just said that the LBs would be in position to stop him quicker when dalton was under center than when he was in the shotgun.

[fredtoast]

(10-01-2015, 06:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: For one, just from watching film you can see that he is better from a lone setback doing what I described- getting the ball going downhill.

I watch the games and I don't see this.

How is gaining fewer yards better?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-30-2015, 09:44 PM)Slappy from New Haven Wrote: Yep, can't think past KC. We match up well against them. Stop the run and play bump and run. Keep it all in front of the safeties.

KC was exposed past the front four on D last week.

Front 4?  I thought KC ran a 3 front?  Anyway, I agree completely.  The Bengals do match up well versus the Chefs, and folks are now starting to realize just how potent this offense can be, now that they have a full compliment of receiving weapons.  Now, if we could only get the interior of our OL to play well...

[BoomerFan]

Tonight is going to be pretty important. No one "controls" the division this early of course, but I am rooting for the ratbirds to beat the steelers. A 2.5 game lead is always nice to have, even if it is very, very, early.

[masonbengals fan]

Ravens win sure would help.