The Oline - where is it really ?

[shanebo]

We all knew before the season started that this line was going to stink. Hart starting? Glenn at guard? Then when Boling retired and JWill got hurt ... and Price still not good enough to play? Puke. IMO, the only starting-quality NFL talent we have are Glenn and Hopkins -- and even they are lower-level starters that really need to be surrounded by 3 other superior players. Everyone else is either a backup/bum (Hart, Jerry, Miller, Redmond) or undeveloped potential (Williams, Johnson, Jordan, Price, Prince, Dugas). I think we need at least two starters (RT and RG) either in FA (yeah right) or the draft, rolling out JWill (LT), Glenn (LG), Hopkins ©, ?? (RG), ?? (RT) to start the season. If Williams struggles, swap him and Glenn early in camp.

Unfortunately, I think the powers that be feel differently about our line. They see it as a young group, full of potential, that improved toward the end of the season. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have Williams, Glenn, Hopkins, Miller, and Hart penciled in to start the season again (would have been fine last year if healthy!), sign no FAs, and wait until Rd. 5 to draft some random OG to develop.

[BleedNOrange]

Just for reference, here are how the grades breakdown per 2015 PFF Twitter.
https://twitter.com/pff/status/652583704800444416?lang=en

The Player Grading Scale:
100-90  Elite
89-85    Pro Bowler
84-70    Starter
69-60    Backup
59-0      Replaceable

According to this scale, we have 0 OL graded as "Starter", 3 graded as "Backup" (Hopkins, Glenn, & Johnson), 1 as a NA (Williams), & a whole bunch graded as "Replaceable".  It would be interesting to see how the grades changed once they changed blocking scheme for the last half of the season.  

Any way you look at it, we need to upgrade multiple spots across the OL.  

[*ochocincos*]

(02-05-2020, 10:48 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: You would pay more for dead cap cutting him than you would keeping him and not playing him. It would be silly to cut him this year.

Yep.

The problem with Price is this...
- He's a better fit at C than G. This has a decent amount to do with his incredible lack of length.
- The Bengals found a better C in Hopkins, so they tried him elsewhere so that they weren't putting a 1st rounder on the bench.
- He hadn't played Guard since 2016, so he was very rusty trying to go back without having a full offseason to prepare.

At this point, the best option is to keep Price on the bench for a year and really groom him at Guard. Yes, it sucks to do that with a 1st round OL in his 3rd year in the league, but they don't really have a better option at this point.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-05-2020, 11:50 AM)BleedNOrange Wrote: Just for reference, here are how the grades breakdown per 2015 PFF Twitter.
https://twitter.com/pff/status/652583704800444416?lang=en

The Player Grading Scale:
100-90  Elite
89-85    Pro Bowler
84-70    Starter
69-60    Backup
59-0      Replaceable

According to this scale, we have 0 OL graded as "Starter", 3 graded as "Backup" (Hopkins, Glenn, & Johnson), 1 as a NA (Williams), & a whole bunch graded as "Replaceable".  It would be interesting to see how the grades changed once they changed blocking scheme for the last half of the season.  

Any way you look at it, we need to upgrade multiple spots across the OL.  

Yea but you really can't go by that.

Case in point, only 14 Centers graded at 70+. There aren't going to be 18 new C's that can come in to replace the guys who were below that threshold. 

A 60+ is acceptable as a mediocre starter.
I think you only look to replace someone in the 60's if you don't have any other starting positions across the team below 60.

[Hoofhearted]

(02-05-2020, 11:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep.

The problem with Price is this...
- He's a better fit at C than G. This has a decent amount to do with his incredible lack of length.
- The Bengals found a better C in Hopkins, so they tried him elsewhere so that they weren't putting a 1st rounder on the bench.
- He hadn't played Guard since 2016, so he was very rusty trying to go back without having a full offseason to prepare.

At this point, the best option is to keep Price on the bench for a year and really groom him at Guard. Yes, it sucks to do that with a 1st round OL in his 3rd year in the league, but they don't really have a better option at this point.

Agreed. He also dealt with quite a few injuries since being drafted. He tore something working out for the draft, believe he hurt his foot and back to? That stunts your growth.Sucks the most that Bengals have really tried to fix the line, but have swung and missed so much recently. Rather odd to miss on that many lineman that high in the draft.

[BleedNOrange]

(02-05-2020, 12:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yea but you really can't go by that.

Case in point, only 14 Centers graded at 70+. There aren't going to be 18 new C's that can come in to replace the guys who were below that threshold. 

A 60+ is acceptable as a mediocre starter.
I think you only look to replace someone in the 60's if you don't have any other starting positions across the team below 60.

Completely agree.  It did sound off considering you have to have 160 starting-quality OL in the NFL.  It would be nice to see a "real" scale.  Either way, the only OL I can rely on is Hopkins at this point.  Glenn seems decent but I have no idea where his head is.  I have hopes for Williams but that is TBD.

['E']

(02-05-2020, 10:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: You'd be surprised how good even average skill players will look when your plays have time to develop.

Exactly.

This is why I cringe when I see people suggesting we grab a WR at the top of the second round when there may be a first-round caliber offensive tackle sitting there for the taking. We already took John Ross in the first round when we had needs on the OL and look how that turned out. Lets get it right this time and build from the inside out.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-05-2020, 01:09 PM)E Wrote: Exactly.

This is why I cringe when I see people suggesting we grab a WR at the top of the second round when there may be a first-round caliber offensive tackle sitting there for the taking. We already took John Ross in the first round when we had needs on the OL and look how that turned out. Lets get it right this time and build from the inside out.

Yeah, we took John Ross, we also took Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, and Jonah in the first 2 rounds...

[SunsetBengal]

(02-05-2020, 10:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: You'd be surprised how good even average skill players will look when your plays have time to develop.

^This.  Tom Brady has been winning championships with guys that you never heard of, and turning them into household names for years.  Why?  Because the Patriots have done well at maintaining a strong, cohesive OL that executes well and allows the skill players to become interchangeable.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-05-2020, 01:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: ^This.  Tom Brady has been winning championships with guys that you never heard of, and turning them into household names for years.  Why?  Because the Patriots have done well at maintaining a strong, cohesive OL that executes well and allows the skill players to become interchangeable.

They actually just lost their OL coach again. He’s retiring.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-05-2020, 01:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, we took John Ross, we also took Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, and Jonah in the first 2 rounds...

2017 didn't really have OL on the radar.
Most people were talking about Ross, Mike Williams (who went before), Howard, Barnett, and Hooker as options for the 9th pick.
In fact, OL was considered very weak in that draft class, which was reflected in the fact that the first OL wasn't drafted until 20th overall (Garett Bolles). The only other OL drafted in the 1st round was Ryan Ramczyk, which was 32nd overall.

['E']

(02-05-2020, 01:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, we took John Ross, we also took Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, and Jonah in the first 2 rounds...

I understand that lineman can bust. My point is that it is bad business to try to build a team around WR when you have obvious needs on the line. John Ross was just an example of that practice, not a claim that WR bust more or less often than OL.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-05-2020, 10:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: You'd be surprised how good even average skill players will look when your plays have time to develop.

For sure, it's amazing what the QB having just 1 extra second does.

[*bengalfan74*]

[quote pid='833281' dateline='1580924545']

I understand that lineman can bust. My point is that it is bad business to try to build a team around WR when you have obvious needs on the line. John Ross was just an example of that practice, not a claim that WR bust more or less often than OL.
[/quote]

I agree with that and it's why I'd love to see them pick up at least one legit lineman via free agency. Two even better ! Then if a top WR falls for whatever reasons nab him. Gives us more leverage to pick BPA.

[Gdale_Bengal]

2017 draft had 4 tackles taken in the first 2 rounds.

It was a down year for that position. Cam Robinson was mentioned multiple times to go in the first and he had like 2 blown knees. He went at the top of the 2nd to Jacksonville. We got Mixon that year, that was our first round choice not Bad John Ross

[Gdale_Bengal]

(02-05-2020, 02:49 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: [quote pid='833281' dateline='1580924545']

I understand that lineman can bust. My point is that it is bad business to try to build a team around WR when you have obvious needs on the line. John Ross was just an example of that practice, not a claim that WR bust more or less often than OL.

I agree with that and it's why I'd love to see them pick up at least one legit lineman via free agency. Two even better ! Then if a top WR falls for whatever reasons nab him. Gives us more leverage to pick BPA.
[/quote]
Laviska chenault jr. has been falling out of the first in some of my recent drafts. I think he would be a really nice addition to our WR core.

[fredtoast]

To me Price was the biggest disappointment on a team full of disappointments. I really thought his poor play his rookie season was due to not being able to lift/train during the offseason. I expected him to improve dramatically in his second season.

[lone bengal]

(02-05-2020, 11:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep.

The problem with Price is this...
- He's a better fit at C than G. This has a decent amount to do with his incredible lack of length.
- The Bengals found a better C in Hopkins, so they tried him elsewhere so that they weren't putting a 1st rounder on the bench.
- He hadn't played Guard since 2016, so he was very rusty trying to go back without having a full offseason to prepare.

At this point, the best option is to keep Price on the bench for a year and really groom him at Guard. Yes, it sucks to do that with a 1st round OL in his 3rd year in the league, but they don't really have a better option at this point.

Agree Price is a better fit at center , personally I don’t think he has the traits to be a quality NFL guard. Like others have said it dosen’t make sense to cut him money wise. I think best option with Price is to trade him to a team looking for a center. Price essentially has two years left because we’re not going to pick up his 5th year option. I think Price is more appealing to others teams for a trade this season because they would have him for two years on a rookie contact to asses if he can play well at center.
Jordan can start at center in a pinch if Hopkins ever got hurt.

[Fullrock]

I don't know yet if Jordan is the answer to LG, but I will say that his play seemed to drastically improve when he had at least a competent LT in Glenn and Fred Johnson.

I think Johnson is a wild card. He really showed some athleticism and potential in the last two games. He has to be an upgrade over Hart if they decide to plug him in at RT. I think you almost have to draft best O-lineman available at the top of second round, whether that's interior or on the edge. I often wonder if Hart could be a decent guard since he seems to get beat by speed on the edge more than anything.

[bengals67]

(02-05-2020, 02:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To me Price was the biggest disappointment on a team full of disappointments. I really thought his poor play his rookie season was due to not being able to lift/train during the offseason. I expected him to improve dramatically in his second season.

:andy: