The Oline - where is it really ?

[t3r3e3]

(02-07-2020, 08:41 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: They need massive upgrades at the Guard position.  One can come from the draft but I really hope they go with both a RT and RG in the draft and get a FA LG.  

I would rather them spend on FA and draft these positions than any other except the first pick, QB.  I could see them trading back in the 2nd round to try and pick up an additional 3rd rounder and they could go QB, RT, RG, and LB in those first four picks.  I know it is stupid to say things like "get your guard in Rd 3", but there is a pretty solid talent pool of guards that could allow for that.  

The best offenses still trump the best defenses...we saw it again in the Super Bowl.  The Bengals will not have a very strong offense unless they have significant improvements on the offensive line.  I don't see those improvements coming from just adding Jonah Williams.  He could help, but they need much more than just "another year older".  

Trouble is the front office does not value guards. The good ones they do draft are allowed to walk in FA. Rarely do they draft guards in the first 2 rounds, Steinbach and Zietler being exceptions. The sad part is all of the best Bengals teams in franchise history had a common thread: Top 5 o lines. The line will continue to suck until ownership changes their tactics and improves their drafting acumen.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-15-2020, 03:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, love the guys hustle. Think Hubbard could be one of the best versatile Defensive players in the NFL down the road.

Guy can play End, DT, LB, FB. Dude has serious skills.

He looked really strong at the start of the season (he looked jacked) but didn't quite look the same as the season wore on...still played well, but he will figure out how to keep his size and strength as he matures.  He had a really good first two years and this next year could be special...especially if the rest of the line improves and the LB corps stops being such an easy hole in the defense....

[SunsetBengal]

(02-16-2020, 12:41 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Trouble is the front office does not value guards.  The good ones they do draft are allowed to walk in FA.  Rarely do they draft guards in the first 2 rounds, Steinbach and Zietler being exceptions.  The sad part is all of the best Bengals teams in franchise history had a common thread:  Top 5 o lines.  The line will continue to suck until ownership changes their tactics and improves their drafting acumen.

Having a strong OL is definitely key to success in the NFL.  However, when a player is drafted is not nearly as important as the talent evaluation and skill set selection process, as well as coaching those players to develop that talent.

Good and successful OL come from all rounds of the draft, that is why scouting and evaluation is so important.  Judging a player based on tape measurements and other measurable factors has a lot of weight at certain positions;  Like arm length in Tackles and Centers.  However, at positions like RG, you might want the man with the most powerful hands and raw power, perhaps a guy that isn't afraid to be the man to "start the fight".  Whereas at LG, you might want a guy that is a little more agile and athletic, and can get out to the second level on running plays.

However, there is absolutely no substitute for watching players in actual games, to see who they really are.  Do they recover well from giving up a bad play?  Do they get lazy when they are facing lesser competition?  How do they carry themselves on the sidelines?  Do they stay engaged when they're backside on a play?  Those, and so many more questions can be answered by being in the stadium watching, rather than looking at just "scouting footage" that is cut down to only show the actual plays.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-16-2020, 12:41 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Trouble is the front office does not value guards.  The good ones they do draft are allowed to walk in FA.  Rarely do they draft guards in the first 2 rounds, Steinbach and Zietler being exceptions.  The sad part is all of the best Bengals teams in franchise history had a common thread:  Top 5 o lines.  The line will continue to suck until ownership changes their tactics and improves their drafting acumen.

I am not going to excuse their current lack of success in the draft, but they aren't going to draft a guard in Rd 2 if there isn't a rd 2 talent there.  They have actually drafted guards fairly well with Steinbach and Zeitler, as you mentioned...and Price was a first round pick (so was Zeitler).  It isn't that they always let them walk in FA, either.  Had they paid Zeitler the 12 million per year that he got from the Browns, it would have been more stupid than letting him go in the first place.  He was not an elite guard and I don't see it as much as they would let them walk, but that they thought the dropoff would not be as extreme and allow them to sign the likes of their core players.  

You are absolutely right, however, in terms of their history of top 5 lines.  They have had several massive whiffs in a row:  Og, Fish, and Price.  I hear that Price has always had numerous injuries that hampered his performance, but he has been a huge disappointment any way you slice it.

Fast forward to last year:  They drafted Williams, and he is still an unknown.  They got Miller in FA, who has been average at best.  They picked up Fred Johnson, who played admirably thrust in to the LT role and could push Hart at RT (along with a likely draft pick).  They drafted Michael Jordan, who struggled, but started as a fourth round pick and seemed to improve as the season progressed.  They made the call to put Hopkins at Center, and he turned out to be a gem, and allowed them to bench former first rounder, Price.  Let's face it:  that never happens under Marv...some progress there.   And remember Westerman?  The guy we all thought would be a beast at RG?  He retires?  And Clint Boling retired due to blood clots.  Cordy Glenn, if we are honest, has no interest in playing football...he just wants a contract.  Some of this is not the Bengal's fault.  They had to scramble when they lost Boling and Westerman.  But they did make moves and drafted help to the offensive line.  

What should have been a starting line of:  Williams-Glenn-Hopkins-Miller-Hart ended up being:  Warm body-rookie-Hopkins-Miller-Hart.

This year, we should see Williams starting at LT (even though it will be his first action of his NFL career, I see him as a massive upgrade over what we had in 2019).  They will either have Jordan at LG or maybe a FA (please Whit!) or draft pick.  Center position is set.  They will probably be drafting a RG as their M.O. is usually to draft a replacement before the contract expires.  There are some really good choices out there in this year's draft...a few maulers which is what you need at RG.  And then the competition of Hart and Johnson at RT.

In summary, heading in to 2020:  

LT- Massive improvement with Williams
LG- Jordan in year 2 or a FA(should make a significant leap in year two and he did get a lot of experience.  Didn't help that he had some turnstiles at LT next to him).
C- Set with Hopkins, Price as backup
RG- Miller in year 2 with the team...should have to compete with draft pick, potential upgrade.
RT- Hart or Johnson, Hart will have to improve to hold off Johnson, potential upgrade.

They may not look like huge changes, but there were a couple massive holes last year and the entire line suffered.  That being said, they did improve as the season wore on, especially in the running game.  

Here's to a road grader of a RG in the draft and a FA LG to really solidify the middle of the line. 

[samhain]

(02-16-2020, 11:39 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hobson was talking about the draft?  I thought he was speaking in terms of Free Agency, or maybe that was just some "wishful remembrance" on my part, as I'm sometimes apt to do.

With that said, I've been strategizing my mock drafts to cover 2 OL picks, thinking that the team would be boosting the defense through some sort of free agent moves.  On that thought, I've been able to find quality Tackles in the 3rd round, and good RG candidates in rounds 4-7 with uncanny regularity.

Yes.  He said not to be surprised if they go defense in 2-4.  Hopefully they can get a 3rd for Dalton and use it on something else.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-16-2020, 01:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Having a strong OL is definitely key to success in the NFL.  However, when a player is drafted is not nearly as important as the talent evaluation and skill set selection process, as well as coaching those players to develop that talent.

Good and successful OL come from all rounds of the draft, that is why scouting and evaluation is so important.  Judging a player based on tape measurements and other measurable factors has a lot of weight at certain positions;  Like arm length in Tackles and Centers.  However, at positions like RG, you might want the man with the most powerful hands and raw power, perhaps a guy that isn't afraid to be the man to "start the fight".  Whereas at LG, you might want a guy that is a little more agile and athletic, and can get out to the second level on running plays.

However, there is absolutely no substitute for watching players in actual games, to see who they really are.  Do they recover well from giving up a bad play?  Do they get lazy when they are facing lesser competition?  How do they carry themselves on the sidelines?  Do they stay engaged when they're backside on a play?  Those, and so many more questions can be answered by being in the stadium watching, rather than looking at just "scouting footage" that is cut down to only show the actual plays.

I am hoping Turner is better at scouting and evaluation then PA and Pollack. I liked Pollack but he had a great O-line in Dallas
with great talent. I actually thought the way Turner changed the scheme up last season and these schlubs started playing okay
was a good sign. Still need to add at least a couple Lineman this Offseason whether in FA or the Draft. I just hope Turner and 
company scout and evaluate properly from here on out.

By far the biggest key to this Offense improving is the O-line improving.

[Joelist]

(02-17-2020, 03:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am hoping Turner is better at scouting and evaluation then PA and Pollack. I liked Pollack but he had a great O-line in Dallas
with great talent. I actually thought the way Turner changed the scheme up last season and these schlubs started playing okay
was a good sign. Still need to add at least a couple Lineman this Offseason whether in FA or the Draft. I just hope Turner and 
company scout and evaluate properly from here on out.

By far the biggest key to this Offense improving is the O-line improving.

It would be nice if we could shake this weird infatuation with stretch zone blocking and instead style the scheme to what the players do well. Alternately if they really feel stretch zone is the way to go then open up the pocketbook and use both Free Agency and the draft to get the correct type of players to execute it. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-17-2020, 04:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: It would be nice if we could shake this weird infatuation with stretch zone blocking and instead style the scheme to what the players do well. Alternately if they really feel stretch zone is the way to go then open up the pocketbook and use both Free Agency and the draft to get the correct type of players to execute it. 

So true, the directional drive blocking is what worked for the players we had on the O-line obviously as we saw as the year went on.

At least Turner started to learn this. Don't know if a stubborn sumbitch like PA ever would.

Get drive blockers on the Line, use the scheme that best suits your players.

[Joelist]

You know, if we had the players on the roster to properly execute stretch zone then by all mean do it. The idea is tailor the schemes to what the players do well.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-23-2020, 03:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: You know, if we had the players on the roster to properly execute stretch zone then by all mean do it. The idea is tailor the schemes to what the players do well.

That's true^

Sometimes the best scheme is the simplest one that can be executed to perfection.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-23-2020, 03:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: You know, if we had the players on the roster to properly execute stretch zone then by all mean do it. The idea is tailor the schemes to what the players do well.

Exactly, no more of this putting square pegs in round holes.

(02-23-2020, 05:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That's true^

Sometimes the best scheme is the simplest one that can be executed to perfection.

For sure.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-05-2020, 11:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: They need some weapons in the worst way up there. It will be interesting to see just how good the hoodie is with without a prime Brady, Gronk, etc.

He’ll probably always field a top notch defense, but I could see NE struggling on offense for a while.

I agree, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the offense doesn't sputter a bit. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-04-2020, 04:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the offense doesn't sputter a bit. 

Dick Clark, I mean Tom Brady will be 43 when the season starts. I don't care how much seaweed he eats and how much he pays for personal trainers ? Age is gonna catch up to him at some point and I'd bet it's soon. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-23-2020, 05:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That's true^

Sometimes the best scheme is the simplest one that can be executed to perfection.

The KISS principle applies in many instances.

I think coaches and really all of us are guilty at times of over thinking "stuff"

[*ochocincos*]

(02-05-2020, 12:20 AM)WhodeyRay Wrote: I think you pretty much summed it up. We have a lot of back up caliber players starting. I am not ready to give up just yet on Price although it isnt looking promising. I just keep remembering how bad Boling was when he got some starting time year 2. Then he turned into to a fine lineman.  With the college offenses most lineman struggle until year 3. Hell it took Fisher with KC almost 4 years. My uncle lives in KC and I remember Fisher being viewed like we did OG to KC fans. But to some it up, yes we need some line help. At least 1 guard and a rt.

Boling was a 4th rounder whereas Price was a 1st.
Price should have higher expectations than Boling did.
But you're right, there's still time for Price to improve.

[*ochocincos*]

So, some people think Price just needs time to pan out at OG because he succeeded there in college.
Well, there are guys who succeeded at OT in college but had to be forced inside for the NFL due to their physical limitations.
I believe Price is in that same boat.
His incredible lack of length likely forces him to only be a C, and the Bengals have found a better C in Hopkins.
It's worth keeping Price on the roster through the remainder of his rookie contract to see if he does blossom into a solid starter, but I don't have hopes of him being a long-term starter on the Bengals now that Hopkins has jumped him at C.

[XenoMorph]

(02-05-2020, 12:07 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The state of the Oline has been a hot topic and much debated subject over the last few seasons. And it's obvious it needs upgraded especially if we're going with a rookie QB.

The line seemed to show some improvement late in the season. But how much of that was just playing not so good competition ? Who on the Oline is worth keeping, who needs to go ?

Here's a list of guys currently on roster and their stats from pff: (I don't have access to other stats, pressures etc.)

C Billy Price 3rd season 588 snaps 4 penalties gave up 3 sacks overall pff grade 41.8
C Trey Hopkins 5th season 1,097 snaps 2 penalties 4 sacks grade 62.4

G John Jerry 10th season 445 snaps 2 penalties 8 sacks 55.6 grade
G Michael Jordan 2nd season 648 snaps 6 penalties 6 sacks 43.7 grade
G John Miller 6th season 779 snaps 3 penalties 2 sacks 58.6 grade

T Fred Johnson 2nd season 144 snaps 2 penalties 0 sacks 62.6 grade
T Cordy Glenn 9th season 291 snaps 0 penalties 4 sacks 68.4 grade
T Bobby Hart 6th season 1,086 snaps 8 penalties 6 sacks 57.7 grade
T Isaiah Prince 2nd season 70 snaps 2 penalties 1 sack 45.6 grade
T Jonah Williams 2nd season N/A

Two players listed on IR:

T O'shea Dugas 2nd season N/A
G Alex Redmond 4th season 189 snaps 1 penalty 2 sacks 50.6 grade

First off I don't believe pff is the tell all end all. However, these stats line up pretty well with my eye test so..... to say the least we have pretty much a group of barely serviceable NFL wise Olinemen.

Just for some examples the lowest grade on Cowboys Oline was like 68. They have two guys in low 70's and two in mid to high 80's grade wise. Ravens had two guys in 70's two mid to high 80's lowest I saw was again like 68.

Back to the Bengals. I'm quite sure we'd grade out in the bottom 1/4 of NFL, if not the worst. Billy Price thus far has been hot garbage ! He's got bust written all over him. Do we cut bait and run ? John Jerry will be entering season 10 and he gave up 8 sacks in 445 snaps with 55 grade. I don't want to keep our best graded lineman Glenn. Bobby Hart is just a penalty machine and not that good.

Then comes Jonah Williams, who knows what he'll be ? If there's any decent free agents out there we badly need to get at least one if not two ? And we need to move on from some of these guys.

In my mind we need a pretty major overhaul of the Oline.

part of this might be exaggerated by the fact we play 3-4 different LTs and 3-4 different LGs thru the year and linemen require time to gel so they know whos getting who.  we didn't have that all year on the left side.

for price... He might come around if he was having foot issues last year.. That makes things really hard for the Big Guys

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2020, 11:12 AM)ochocincos Wrote: So, some people think Price just needs time to pan out at OG because he succeeded there in college.
Well, there are guys who succeeded at OT in college but had to be forced inside for the NFL due to their physical limitations.
I believe Price is in that same boat.
His incredible lack of length likely forces him to only be a C, and the Bengals have found a better C in Hopkins.
It's worth keeping Price on the roster through the remainder of his rookie contract to see if he does blossom into a solid starter, but I don't have hopes of him being a long-term starter on the Bengals now that Hopkins has jumped him at C.

Yeah, the problem for Price is the only way he starts at Center is if Hop goes down. If he could blossom at Guard he could 
resurrect his career. This is what I am hoping for from Price.

[slim 751]

I am really afraid my Bengals are going to blow this once in a lifetime chance.Drafting the"generational talent"qb and not putting The Very Best offensive line possible around him makes absolutely no sense.A run game and good o line play should be their priority.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2020, 10:13 PM)slim 751 Wrote: I am really afraid my Bengals are going to blow this once in a lifetime chance.Drafting the"generational talent"qb and not putting The Very Best offensive line possible around him makes absolutely no sense.A run game and good o line play should be their priority.

We will see, I think that is pretty much everyone's concern at this point.