Should we trade up into the 1st for Queen or another linebacker?

[Whatever]

(02-10-2020, 05:13 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: Would you be happy trading up for Murray over Queen? I want to see us get our guy at linebacker if possible. And obviously want that guy to pan out. Otherwise we grab a mid round guy and put it off to next year again.

If you combine bringing in Burrow and our first round LT from last year with an FA LB like Littleton and a bottom of the 1st linebacker, i feel like its a good start. Draft a promising G/T with the pick we get for Dalton, as well as a cb and a good defensive line prospect in the 3rd/4th and suddenly we are a lot better—provided we resign AJ and Dennard and Eifert and a few other pending FAs.

I would honestly be surprised if Murray made it out of the top half of the 1st when it's all said and done.  He's a better prospect than Devin Bush imo and it's an even worse LB class than last year.  That's not to say I think that's where he should go, but some LB needy team will reach for him.

[PikesPeakUC]

(02-10-2020, 06:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If it cost a 4th rounder to get Kenneth Murray, I'd accept that cost.

I'm not sure about the other first round linebackers though. I kind of want an OT in the 2nd if Murray doesn't fall or if we don't trade up for him.

From what I can tell these are the current grades on day 1 and day 2 LBs:
Top 10: Isaiah Simmons
Late first/Early Second: Murray and Queen
Third/Fourth: Troy Dye, Jordyn Brooks, Malik Harrison

So if Murray doesn't reach 33, should we reach for Dye or Harrison or grab an OT or BPA like CB?

I think if you don't land Murray, you've hopefully grabbed your LB in free agency, continue to let Pratt play, and then maybe sign a thumper that you can play on running downs. Most times you're not even playing three linebackers, so like most people are saying, attack free agency, then draft BPA every round. There's really no positions that are off limits for a 2-14 team. 

[SadFaceBengal15]

(02-10-2020, 11:55 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Depends on what they do with Vigil.

If they keep him, there's really only 1 high pick/free agent needed since they are in nickel a majority of the time. I think Pratt/Vigil/and a 2nd rounder would be more than enough.

Vigil shouldn’t be near the field so I strongly disagree

[Bengalpool]

(02-10-2020, 05:13 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: Would you be happy trading up for Murray over Queen? I want to see us get our guy at linebacker if possible. And obviously want that guy to pan out. Otherwise we grab a mid round guy and put it off to next year again.

If you combine bringing in Burrow and our first round LT from last year with an FA LB like Littleton and a bottom of the 1st linebacker, i feel like its a good start. Draft a promising G/T with the pick we get for Dalton, as well as a cb and a good defensive line prospect in the 3rd/4th and suddenly we are a lot better—provided we resign AJ and Dennard and Eifert and a few other pending FAs.

I wouldn't be upset depending on what we gave up to get him.

I don't see a realistic scenario with Littleton coming to Cincy even if we offer a good deal.

[Au165]

(02-11-2020, 09:59 AM)Takedown Wrote: I wouldn't be upset depending on what we gave up to get him.

I don't see a realistic scenario with Littleton coming to Cincy even if we offer a good deal.

Taylor at least knows the guys so there is that going for us. I actually prefer Schobert though, so I wouldn't be upset.

[Bengalpool]

(02-11-2020, 12:21 PM)Au165 Wrote: Taylor at least knows the guys so there is that going for us. I actually prefer Schobert though, so I wouldn't be upset.

Hey I'll take either lol. It's been hard, watching us sit idle every year in FA without making one huge splash. I'm not saying it's always smart to do so, but if you want to sell tickets, you gotta show some sign of life in the FO. The last two years I've finally trained myself to just act like there isn't a FA period. Less disappointment.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(02-10-2020, 06:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If it cost a 4th rounder to get Kenneth Murray, I'd accept that cost.

I'm not sure about the other first round linebackers though. I kind of want an OT in the 2nd if Murray doesn't fall or if we don't trade up for him.

From what I can tell these are the current grades on day 1 and day 2 LBs:
Top 10: Isaiah Simmons
Late first/Early Second: Murray and Queen
Third/Fourth: Troy Dye, Jordyn Brooks, Malik Harrison

So if Murray doesn't reach 33, should we reach for Dye or Harrison or grab an OT or BPA like CB?

I’d take BPA at 33 and hope Malik brooks or dye are there in the third

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-09-2020, 01:33 PM)Bengalstripes18 Wrote: Just wondering what you guys think. If we signed a LB like Littleton or Schobert in FA and traded up for Queen thats a pretty good overhaul to our linebacker corps IMO.

Could still nab a promising cb or guard/tackle or wideout or dlineman in the 3rd-5th.

I don't know if I would trade up for Queen, maybe Murray.

Kind of leaning toward if Brady leaves the Pats that we Tag AJ and trade him and Dalton to the Pats for their pick.

Then draft Murray or Queen there and keep our pick at 33 if this is possible.

I don't know if it is but would like this better than trading up.

[WhoDeyK]

I wouldn’t want to trade up from 33 for a linebacker. To me the only one worth trading up for is Simmons. Which is unrealistic since it would cost way too much. He’s pretty much a lock for the top 10. Otherwise I would be more than happy to select Murray or Queen in they fall to us at the top of the 2nd round.
I’m hoping that the plan is to:
1)Stay at 33 and select either Murray or Queen.
2)Stay at 33 and Select an OT (Jones,Jackson or Wilson)
3a)Stay at 33 and go BPA (ideally BPA and need would match up)
3b) Take advantage of a team that has fallen in love with a player who somehow made it out of the 1st and trade back. Not sure what compensation for this would look like though.

[WhoDeyK]

A name that doesn’t seem to get mentioned a lot with us is Zach Baun. Do people feel like he is not a fit for our scheme? I see a lot of sites list him as just an edge or pass rusher but he kind of did it all at Wisconsin. He seems to be an intelligent backer with pretty good coverage skills. Any chance he could be a fit for us?

[SunsetBengal]

(02-17-2020, 05:58 PM)WhoDeyK Wrote: A name that doesn’t seem to get mentioned a lot with us is Zach Baun. Do people feel like he is not a fit for our scheme? I see a lot of sites list him as just an edge or pass rusher but he kind of did it all at Wisconsin. He seems to be an intelligent backer with pretty good coverage skills. Any chance he could be a fit for us?

Here's 4 different perspectives of his scouting report.  Personally, I wouldn't look at him before the 4th round.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/zack-baun

[Hammerstripes]

(02-10-2020, 10:27 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Vigil shouldn’t be near the field so I strongly disagree

He looked good the last half of the year  

[WhoDeyK]

(02-17-2020, 08:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's 4 different perspectives of his scouting report.  Personally, I wouldn't look at him before the 4th round.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/zack-baun

Thanks for the link Sunset. It’s interesting to see the differing opinions. I was thinking 2nd round pick material. I personally would rank him in the Top 5 linebackers in the draft. What makes you say 4th round?

[SunsetBengal]

(02-18-2020, 07:35 PM)WhoDeyK Wrote: Thanks for the link Sunset. It’s interesting to see the differing opinions. I was thinking 2nd round pick material. I personally would rank him in the Top 5 linebackers in the draft. What makes you say 4th round?

I put him in the 4th round/developmental class because of things like;  Lack of length, inability to bend well, takes bad angles, poor at block deconstruction, etc.  

His positives are good, but the cons are all traits that successful.  That thin upper body will get exploited by pro blockers.  I love that he's high motor, all effort, has great fundamental technique, with good football IQ, which is why I think developmental for a year or two.  

The Bengals need a LB that can start in year one.  A guy like Zack Baun will be a great pro for a team like the Steelers or Ravens, who will take him and put him on the bench for a couple years, and develop him physically. 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-10-2020, 10:27 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Vigil shouldn’t be near the field so I strongly disagree

Vigil was rated 62nd best LB according to PFF, which would make him worthy of starting (albeit plenty of room for improvement).
He performed better than popular names like Kwon Alexander, Alec Ogletree, Roquan Smith, and Devin White.

Knowing how the Bengals like to avoid risk, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vigil retained simply for insurance and then looking at another LB in FA and/or the draft to compete with Vigil for starting snaps.

If we look strictly at what upcoming FA LBs performed better than Vigil in 2019, here's the list:
- Cory Littleton (7th best LB)
- Jamie Collins (16th)
- Mychal Kendricks (37th)
- Jon Bostic (56th)

Kendricks still has his impending insider trading sentencing (supposedly for this month but haven't seen hard date) that could affect his availability, so he's probably not worth considering until a ruling can be made.
And Bostic isn't really a cover guy, but he is a tough run defender and has solid speed. Bostic wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Vigil.
So that really just leaves two options for clear upgrades: Littleton and Collins. Both of which could require a hefty contract to come to the Bengals.

[*psychdoctor*]

I said this before and have no objective data to support this other than than watching games, but I think Murray will be a bust in the NFL because of his lack of physicality and unless he improves his tackling technique and learn to distribute his weight to his legs, he will not last long.

The ONLY backer worthy of top 25 pick is Simmons. Dye will be a better backer than Murray.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(02-19-2020, 03:49 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I said this before and have no objective data to support this other than than watching games, but I think Murray will be a bust in the NFL because of his lack of physicality and unless he improves his tackling technique and learn to distribute his weight to his legs, he will not last long.

The ONLY backer worthy of top 25 pick is Simmons. Dye will be a better backer than Murray.

100% agree with this. Not a Murray fan

[SadFaceBengal15]

(02-19-2020, 03:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Vigil was rated 62nd best LB according to PFF, which would make him worthy of starting (albeit plenty of room for improvement).
He performed better than popular names like Kwon Alexander, Alec Ogletree, Roquan Smith, and Devin White.

Knowing how the Bengals like to avoid risk, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vigil retained simply for insurance and then looking at another LB in FA and/or the draft to compete with Vigil for starting snaps.

If we look strictly at what upcoming FA LBs performed better than Vigil in 2019, here's the list:
- Cory Littleton (7th best LB)
- Jamie Collins (16th)
- Mychal Kendricks (37th)
- Jon Bostic (56th)

Kendricks still has his impending insider trading sentencing (supposedly for this month but haven't seen hard date) that could affect his availability, so he's probably not worth considering until a ruling can be made.
And Bostic isn't really a cover guy, but he is a tough run defender and has solid speed. Bostic wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Vigil.
So that really just leaves two options for clear upgrades: Littleton and Collins. Both of which could require a hefty contract to come to the Bengals.

Smh lol most teams run two linebacker sets majority of the game so being ranked 62 is horrible. Kwon Alexander missed a lot of the season and is also light years better than vigil with also a much higher ceiling. Also would you take vigil over raquon smith? What about over Devin white? If not ask yourself why... And I’d still take Alec ogletree all day over vigil.... Alec would be a much better option coming off the bench imo but that’s also where both belong..... especially vigil. They are back ups at best. No more vigil talk he’s garbage and hurts this team week in and week out starting on our defense. There is a reason why linebacker again even with vigil on the roster is one of our biggest needs. It’s cuz vigil is Garbage.
As for a list of free agent linebackers I would take over whom I won’t mention again the list is almost endless

Nigel Bradham
Wesley Woodward
Sean lee
Danny tevethan
Myckal Kendrick’s
Corey Littleton
Damien Wilson
Derron Lee
Jamie Collins
Reggie Ragland
Deon Buchanan
Mark Barron (sources say about to be cut by Steelers)
Joe shoebert
Nick Kwitkowski
Devondre Campbell
Blake Martinez

Too many people hump ride pff as if they are telling you who the better overall
Prospect is. In a heart beat I’d take anyone of those backers in a straight across trade for vigil right now and I hope most bengal fans would agree. Only two questionable ones would be Ragland and Buchanan but still over V**** no doubt.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-19-2020, 04:03 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Smh lol most teams run two linebacker sets majority of the game so being ranked 62 is horrible.  Kwon Alexander missed a lot of the season and is also light years better than vigil with also a much higher ceiling.  Also would you take vigil over raquon smith?  What about over Devin white? If not ask yourself why... And I’d still take Alec ogletree all day over vigil.... Alec would be a much better option coming off the bench imo but that’s also where both belong..... especially vigil.  They are back ups at best.  No more vigil talk he’s garbage and hurts this team week in and week out starting on our defense.  There is a reason why linebacker again even with vigil on the roster is one of our biggest needs.  It’s cuz vigil is Garbage.

You are trying to read way too much into what you think I am saying rather than actually focusing on what I said.
By no means did I say I'd prefer Vigil over Roquan Smith or Devin White. Both have more potential than Vigil and Smith played well in 2018.
And Ogletree has more proven success than Vigil in his career. As has Alexander.
Regardless of all that, they were all still rated lower in 2019.
That's all I said.
It's your fault for making the assumption that I was saying Vigil is better than those guys.

As for the two LB thing, there would still be 64 starting LBs if every team only ran 2 LBs. So, by definition, he performed well enough to be considered a starter.
Did I say he was a good starter? Nope.
Did I say there was room for improvement? Yes.
Did I say the Bengals shouldn't address LB and just go with Vigil? NOPE.

You always respond in such a way where just because someone refutes your point, you take it as they are completely in support of an opposite stance. And that's not true. You need to learn to see things more objectively.

If there was any starting LB who was hurting the team, it was Preston Brown, who was worse than Vigil.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-19-2020, 04:03 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Too many people hump ride pff as if they are telling you who the better overall
Prospect is.  In a heart beat I’d take anyone of those backers in a straight across trade for vigil right now and I hope most bengal fans would agree.  Only two questionable ones would be thanks amd Buchanan but still over V**** no doubt.

Is PFF 100% accurate? Nope.
Do I trust PFF more than I trust subjective opinions by most people in a message board? Yes.