Draft illusion and reality

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 09:53 AM)Takedown Wrote: This pretty much confirms that all of this stupid talk about Burrow not wanting to come here is completely made up. I'll keep saying it. Welcome to Cincinnati Joe!

Yep

There's not much of a story so they manufacture one.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 11:26 AM)shanebo Wrote: The only thing I really got from this article is that our No. 1 pick is effectively already in, and it will be Burrow.  (I was never really that worried about Burrow refusing to come here -- I just don't see him risking sitting out a season when he just came off his best year ever and you have guys like Lawrence and Fields coming out next year.)

That said, this article is really some piece of work by Hobson.  He really pulled out all the stops cherry-picking stats, pulling quotes from pals, etc. to distract us from the fact that our team went 2-14 last year, has no LBs, has the worst O-line in football, a bottom-5 defense, and aging stars.  A few of my favorite quotes:

- "Since the new collective bargaining agreement that began in that 2011 season, the Bengals are one of 10 teams to make the playoffs at least five times. Over that span the Bengals have the 13th most wins in the league ... the Bengals have spent the recent past winning consistently in one of the game's toughest divisions."  (See?  We're really not that bad!  We've actually been the 10th (or 13th) most successful franchise over the last 9 years when it comes to making the playoffs and regular season wins!)

- "Mike Brown oversaw the drafts that yielded Palmer and Dalton, making the Bengals the only team in the last 16 years to draft two quarterbacks that both started more than 60 games for the teams that chose them."  (Don't worry, Mike Brown knows his QBs!  Just never you mind about Akili, and Klingler, and Finley, and Woodside, McCarron, Rowe ... And ignore the fact that at least 12 other teams have drafted one QB who is still active and started 60 or more games (13 if you go back 3 more years and count Brady), at least 5-6 of whom have won superbowls ...)

- "In the last few years alone the Bengals have spent millions renovating player and coach spaces at PBS, upgrading technology and video that enhance analytics and personnel, and head coach Zac Taylor's two biggest coaching staffs in team history." (Who needs an indoor practice area when you have great lockers?  And computers!  More crappy coaches, too!)

- "According to various reports cited by the Bengals, under the new CBA the team has averaged in the upper half of the NFL in annual salary cap spending. In the first five years of the CBA, the NFL Players Association reported the Bengals were ninth in aggregated spending."  (See, we do spend money.  At least as much as half of the other teams, at least since 2011, on average ...  And at one specific point in time we were ninth in aggregated spending, whatever that means ...)

Geoff has spoken, fellas, and it's not that bad!

I buzzed right past that part of it lol.

[*Nately120*]

(02-11-2020, 11:35 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This stuck out from the article by Hobson...

Hobson is lauding the Bengals for having a higher regular season winning percentage than the Rams and Titans, both of whom have had multiple postseason wins the past few years.

So my question is this...
Would you rather have the Bengals' level of success the past decade or the Rams/Titans?
You'd have fewer winning seasons but more postseason success.

Isn't it a moot point, though?  Between 4 and 9 years ago Dalton and Marvin made the playoffs 5 times in a row.  So let's fluff that up while ignoring our decline since then and our celebration that Marvin, Hue, and Dalton are all gone.

There is a whole lot of lightweight fluff on both sides.  We haven't had a winning season since 2015 and we are currently 2-14.  Not hard to see why people aren't talking about us like it is 2015 and we just embarrassed ourselves in the playoffs for the 5th straight time. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 12:16 PM)Au165 Wrote: Right, and many of those teams have had top 5-10 picks and none were deemed to be so bad that their 1st round pick is being told by media that they should refuse to play for them. I think that is really where this whole discussion stems from, this idea that the Bengals are so bad a potential 1st overall picks should want to go somewhere else but in reality all of those teams at the top of the draft are as bad or worse in recent history. It's not a narrative based in facts but rather one that is easy to sell to the general public because of perception.

I think Hobson is trying to allude to this but just not doing it in a completely honest fashion.

Bingo

The Bengals are such an easy target for the National Media, small market, owner who does nothing to change that perception, constantly losing under the bright lights, and on and on. And this perception won't change until we start winning in the post season.

Here's a quote from CBS's Jason La Canfora from article he wrote about trading Burrow:

"The franchise hasn't won a playoff game in forever. The organization often acts in unusual ways – some would say it falls prey to antiquated thinking – and lacks the infrastructure of most franchises it competes with. The Bengals have long lacked for scouting and resources and anything approximating the cutting edge of technology. They lack the sort of facilities and training headquarters that most players are used to from playing big-time college football.


When Carson Palmer, whose brother, Jordan, just happens to be training Burrow for the combine, comes out and says he never felt like the Bengals were really trying to win Super Bowls, I'm not sure there is a cogent counterargument. They are run very much like a throwback, a ma and pa shop that is, in every way, shape and form, an old school family business. It's not for everyone.


Owner Mike Brown seems to bask in his periodic clashes with the league and other owners, and while I have long admired his iconoclastic spirit, the reality is this team has been an also-ran for much of my near 46 years on this planet. And when some of the stands Brown makes include basically skipping the entire trade deadline and using stubborn "logic" to vow not to "help" other teams by dealing a bunch of coveted veterans who have almost no chance of being in Cincy if/when this franchise ever does turn it around again, well, if you were Burrow you might have some reservations about this being a year in which the Bengals hold the first-overall pick."


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/three-step-plan-to-fix-bengals-its-time-for-cincinnati-to-shake-up-the-nfl-and-its-own-future/

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 02:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Isn't it a moot point, though?  Between 4 and 9 years ago Dalton and Marvin made the playoffs 5 times in a row.  So let's fluff that up while ignoring our decline since then and our celebration that Marvin, Hue, and Dalton are all gone.

There is a whole lot of lightweight fluff on both sides.  We haven't had a winning season since 2015 and we are currently 2-14.  Not hard to see why people aren't talking about us like it is 2015 and we just embarrassed ourselves in the playoffs for the 5th straight time. 

And this is the very reason I've never been a banger of the made the playoffs 5 times in a row drum. Because let's face it, in like 17 of those 20 quarters we looked like we had no business being there.

During the bulk of the first 13 years of the ML era we were one of the better mediocre teams in the league. But I'm not going to pound my chest about that. And the fact is we fell flat on our face halfway thru 2015 and haven't yet got back up.

[*Nately120*]

(02-11-2020, 03:08 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And this is the very reason I've never been a banger of the made the playoffs 5 times in a row drum. Because let's face it, in like 17 of those 20 quarters we looked like we had no business being there.

During the bulk of the first 13 years of the ML era we were one of the better mediocre teams in the league. But I'm not going to pound my chest about that. And the fact is we fell flat on our face halfway thru 2015 and haven't yet got back up.

I meant it more like we are beyond thankful Dalton, Marvin and Hue are gone but god forbid the media forget our glorious run with them 9 years ago.

Does anyone care to ask Burrow himself why he was rooting for the Saints while his hometown team was on such an amazing streak?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Just more confirmation that Joe will be the pick. It's all good.

I just don't like how Hobspin glazes over the truth that this FO needs to do more than just Draft well.

Need to get proven players to improve into a Superbowl contender, just the way it is.

No need to glaze over this obvious truth.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 03:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I meant it more like we are beyond thankful Dalton, Marvin and Hue are gone but god forbid the media forget our glorious run with them 9 years ago.

Does anyone care to ask Burrow himself why he was rooting for the Saints while his hometown team was on such an amazing streak?

Good question

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-11-2020, 04:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Just more confirmation that Joe will be the pick. It's all good.

I just don't like how Hobspin glazes over the truth that this FO needs to do more than just Draft well.

Need to get proven players to improve into a Superbowl contender, just the way it is.

No need to glaze over this obvious truth.

I understand Hobspin has to "tow the co. line" and can't really push to hard. But you would think he would at least throw in a "we need to do better" on occasion or something.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(02-11-2020, 02:07 PM)jj22 Wrote: If Hobspin feels the need to "boost with Bengal-colored glasses" then he's in crisis management mode. Unless you think he'd be defending the organization against this perception without there have been any current negative press?

Exactly. He wouldn't. But he is, because there is. Nothing wrong with what I said.

Next.

No, he writes that because he's written like that since he took the job.

Whether the team is 12-4 or 2-14, the team always makes the right moves, is always the best franchise in existence and all is always pleasant in Bengals-Utopia Land.

Apart from being his usual tone and content, he has thrown in subtle hints and nods to Burrow being the pick; THAT is what I took out of the entire article, as THAT is out of place and pleasing.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(02-11-2020, 01:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: No, I don't think so, but most casual fans can't name 5 players on any team outside of their own.
And I don't think that matters.
But I think if you ask most fans who played in the Super Bowl or conference championship game, they'll be able to more easily answer that compared to who won in the wildcard round.

Not to turn it into a pissing match, but I can firmly guarantee that if you asked a non-biased, casual NFL fan if they can name 5 players from that Cardinals team and 5 from the Bengals team of 2015, (circumstances as to why they're being named aside), you'd have:

Cardinals:
- Carsone
- David Johnson
- Fitzgerald
- Peterson

Bengals:
- Andy
- AJ
- Burfict
- Adam Jones
- Jeremy Hill
- Macaroni
- (possible) Geno

Again, these are two specific teams in 1 specific year, but...

We don't have to continue the discussion, btw; just wanted to see my side out 'til the argument ran its course :)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-11-2020, 04:32 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I understand Hobspin has to "tow the co. line" and can't really push to hard. But you would think he would at least throw in a "we need to do better" on occasion or something.

Yeah, it would only help ease all the fans frustrations. Just glazing over the truth just makes it more frustrating.

No wonder we have a lot of negative fans. This fluff breeds them.

[*Nately120*]

(02-11-2020, 05:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, it would only help ease all the fans frustrations. Just glazing over the truth just makes it more frustrating.

No wonder we have a lot of negative fans. This fluff breeds them.

That and watching MB stay a losing course since I was in 2nd grade. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-11-2020, 05:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That and watching MB stay a losing course since I was in 2nd grade. 

True, true.

[fredtoast]

Too many Bengal fans have tied their identity to a victim card.

Bengals can't just be a poor organization. They have to be the worst in professional sports.

Front office can't be just bad at making football decisions. They have to be evil greedy monsters.

This is why pointing out that the Bengals have not been anywhere close to the worst team in the league over the last 10-15 years gets them so upset.

This is why they will talk about the Dolphins (1 winning seasons in last 11 years) trading for the #1 pick because Burrow won't play for the Bengals (6 playoffs in last 11 years).

Victim mentality is sad.

[kevin]

(02-11-2020, 09:53 AM)Takedown Wrote: This pretty much confirms that all of this stupid talk about Burrow not wanting to come here is completely made up. I'll keep saying it. Welcome to Cincinnati Joe!

I'm looking past Joe.  We draft Top of 2 at around 33 and I consider that an extra Round 1.  Then Top of 3 at around 65 and I consider that an extra round 2.   So besides getting Joe, I'll consider this draft a flop if we don't get a Top Talent Offensive Tackle to bookend with Jonah Williams, and also a Top Talent 4-3 Linebacker who makes plays sideline to sideline, solid against run and the pass.  I expect all 3 to be able to be Starters on Opening Day in September.  They will make rookie mistakes, but we need these 3 as Starters right away, because Marvin & Mike Brown left the cupboard pretty bare for Zac coming in.  That is the reality.  We better come away with 3 TOP Picks considering drafting #1 each round. If not, the rebuild becomes just more illusion. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(02-11-2020, 05:28 PM)kevin Wrote: I'm looking past Joe.  We draft Top of 2 at around 33 and I consider that an extra Round 1.  Then Top of 3 at around 65 and I consider that an extra round 2.   So besides getting Joe, I'll consider this draft a flop if we don't get a Top Talent Offensive Tackle to bookend with Jonah Williams, and also a Top Talent 4-3 Linebacker who makes plays sideline to sideline, solid against run and the pass.  I expect all 3 to be able to be Starters on Opening Day in September.  They will make rookie mistakes, but we need these 3 as Starters right away, because Marvin & Mike Brown left the cupboard pretty bare for Zac coming in.  That is the reality.  We better come away with 3 TOP Picks considering drafting #1 each round. If not, the rebuild becomes just more illusion. 

We don't need a top offensive tackle; we need someone who's good enough to fight with the other two fighting for the job and the winner starts at RT.

Whether it's draft or FA, we don't NEED A TACKLE AT 2 OTHERWISE THE DRAFT IS A FLOP!!!!! C'mon.

My own personal view is that Fred Johnson will be starting there and be halfway decent...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-11-2020, 05:32 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: We don't need a top offensive tackle; we need someone who's good enough to fight with the other two fighting for the job and the winner starts at RT.

Whether it's draft or FA, we don't NEED A TACKLE AT 2 OTHERWISE THE DRAFT IS A FLOP!!!!! C'mon.

My own personal view is that Fred Johnson will be starting there and be halfway decent...

As always it will depend on the players drafted, not necessarily in what order position wise.

It will also depend on FA and what players they bring in. 

Hope this Fred Johnson is the real deal, if he is, sure makes everything so much easier.

[Bengalpool]

(02-11-2020, 05:28 PM)kevin Wrote: I'm looking past Joe.  We draft Top of 2 at around 33 and I consider that an extra Round 1.  Then Top of 3 at around 65 and I consider that an extra round 2.   So besides getting Joe, I'll consider this draft a flop if we don't get a Top Talent Offensive Tackle to bookend with Jonah Williams, and also a Top Talent 4-3 Linebacker who makes plays sideline to sideline, solid against run and the pass.  I expect all 3 to be able to be Starters on Opening Day in September.  They will make rookie mistakes, but we need these 3 as Starters right away, because Marvin & Mike Brown left the cupboard pretty bare for Zac coming in.  That is the reality.  We better come away with 3 TOP Picks considering drafting #1 each round. If not, the rebuild becomes just more illusion. 

Kevin... There are already rumors that we will be going defense in rounds 2-4. Of course nothing is set in stone, but Fred Johnson is likely to compete and win the starting RT spot with Jonah at LT. If we keep Glenn he'll likely slide over to LG. So go ahead and call it a flop because I have a strong feeling that the OL will not be a necessity in this draft. Maybe in FA we address RG or LG. Maybe.

[bengals1969]

(02-11-2020, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Too many Bengal fans have tied their identity to a victim card.

Bengals can't just be a poor organization.  They have to be the worst in professional sports.

Front office can't be just bad at making football decisions.  They have to be evil greedy monsters.

This is why pointing out that the Bengals have not been anywhere close to the worst team in the league over the last 10-15 years gets them so upset.

This is why they will talk about the Dolphins (1 winning seasons in last 11 years) trading for the #1 pick because Burrow won't play for the Bengals (6 playoffs in last 11 years).

Victim mentality is sad.  

Well to be fair, the 1990's were formative years for many fans.
Marvin helped turned the thing around and upgrade the FA's appreciation for a modern pro franchise.
2-14 is a reminder to the 1990's poor play, scouting, drafting and FA signings.

I just don't know enough about the new coaches to know which way it goes.  Too soon.  Every pro teams hits rock bottom over enough time, nothing to get suicidal over.   As I've said the Bengals are in a pretty good position given draft picks and cap.  Opportunity is there to turn it around quickly.