Palmer v Burrow

[*Nately120*]

(02-18-2020, 07:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When you consider the roster losses alone, going from 2015 to 2016 and forward, 7-9 in 2016 seems like more of a miracle job at QB by Andy, than anything.

Anyway, we can agree to differ on this, as I completely respect your opinions.

I try to not look at things as in Palmer vs Dalton so much as QB vs Mike Brown.  Dalton did good work here, took a team-friendly deal and then got a lousy o-line and some really bad coaches in response.

[Benton]

(02-18-2020, 02:50 PM)jason Wrote: Andrew Luck's first words in the Colts huddle were "Everybody shut the **** up.".

Seriously? Lol, I didn't know that. I've got a little more respect for him now.

[Dean_Gilberry95]

(02-18-2020, 12:16 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Dalton had that it factor but couldn't get his actual game to the next level without a strong supporting cast around him. 

I don't know how Burrow will be here because LSU had one of the best D, one of the best OL and strong supporting cast for him to achieve his success. Yes there were times it was on Burrow to make the play but he didn't achieve that success alone. It was a team effort. 

Looking at Dalton his bad years the team lacked any true burner to open up the field, the OL was horrible and simply couldn't block, etc... the years the team had solid OL play, strong to decent D, Dalton performed well enough to get his team to the playoffs. Again the team failed in the playoffs because failure by the team should never be put on one player; everyone has a chance to make that difference between a win or a loss. Missing filed goals, failing a block, a RB that doesn't hit the hole to get the gain, etc... 

As for CP vs. Burrow; CP was a quiet leader. As he aged he started to be more vocal. The more vocal excited QB who take leadership roles early tend to have success earlier and continue that in their career. QB that hold every member accountable for their mistakes also seem to have better success. Brady and Manning are prime examples of players who were not only vocal but also held team mates accountable for their mistakes have had long and productive careers. 

For me CP and Dalton don't seem to use their leadership make team mates accountable for their mistakes, which has had a negative impact on the team ability to get a playoff win. 

Both offense and defense needs a leader that makes their team mates aware of the mistakes and work with their team mates to correct them. On the offensive side of the ball it is typically the QB job and if it falls to another player the team doesn't gel and tends not to get the wins. 

As for the D; it use to be the MLB that did this; now it seems as if this is now falling into the hands of the defensive backs. 

Burrow ability to lead will be welcomed. Hopefully he can be vocal and make everyone on the offense accountable for their mistakes to help improve the team and get the offense to gel if Burrow is drafted by the Bengals. 

Dalton’s it factor was called Andrew Whitworth. When Whit is standing behind Andy saying, “He’s our Leader” no one is gonna disagree. With Whit gone we’ve all seen the results. A new “leader” took over. That’s why this team is so up and down, no fire at times, and basically quitting to get coaches fired (Zampese and Austin). Some moody asshole alpha took the reigns and it shows. My guess is Geno or A.J.

When I say quitting to get coaches fired, both times Marvin seemed to hint to the media that the players, “you got what y’all wanted”. JMO

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2020, 07:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I try to not look at things as in Palmer vs Dalton so much as QB vs Mike Brown.  Dalton did good work here, took a team-friendly deal and then got a lousy o-line and some really bad coaches in response.

I caught a bit of PTI on ESPN this evening, that's one of the few shows on there I try to catch every now and again, anyways.

They were talking about the Burrow saying "if they take me they take me" thing or whatever. And of course they brought up the Mike Brown won't build a team for him. And I got to thinking, dangerous but anyways, does MB not know what a joke he is nationally ? Does he not understand everybody covers their mouth and chuckles when he walks in a media room ? Does he not understand he's created this monster ?

[*jason*]

(02-18-2020, 08:03 PM)Benton Wrote: Seriously? Lol, I didn't know that. I've got a little more respect for him now.

Yeah... In his first preseason game. He threw a dump off that went for a TD on the ensuing play.

[*Nately120*]

(02-18-2020, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I caught a bit of PTI on ESPN this evening, that's one of the few shows on there I try to catch every now and again, anyways.

They were talking about the Burrow saying "if they take me they take me" thing or whatever. And of course they brought up the Mike Brown won't build a team for him. And I got to thinking, dangerous but anyways, does MB not know what a joke he is nationally ? Does he not understand everybody covers their mouth and chuckles when he walks in a media room ? Does he not understand he's created this monster ?

PTI is a pretty tough source to wave off as bs media grandstanding, in my opinion.  Those guys know what they are talking about and they aren't just click-baiting newbies.  Unfortunately, if Mike Brown didn't know he was a lousy owner/GM there would be a chance he'd learn it and adjust.  Sadly, I think he's just a guy who doesn't care what people think about him, and lord knows if I were in his position I might be the same way.

Was Wilbon on the show today? I'll check it out, but the only time he really goes overboard with the "I'm right you are wrong" schtick is when he's ragging on millennials.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2020, 08:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: PTI is a pretty tough source to wave off as bs media grandstanding, in my opinion.  Those guys know what they are talking about and they aren't just click-baiting newbies.  Unfortunately, if Mike Brown didn't know he was a lousy owner/GM there would be a chance he'd learn it and adjust.  Sadly, I think he's just a guy who doesn't care what people think about him, and lord knows if I were in his position I might be the same way.

Was Wilbon on the show today?  I'll check it out, but the only time he really goes overboard with the "I'm right you are wrong" schtick is when he's ragging on millennials.

Oh Wilbon was saying it's all a bunch of horse Shit noise, and I agree.

And I could agree with him totally not caring about public perception if he made his fortune selling flower pots to pete moss or something. But his product isn't on some obscure shelf at Lowes. It's constantly in the media and televised nationally. 

[*jason*]

(02-18-2020, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I caught a bit of PTI on ESPN this evening, that's one of the few shows on there I try to catch every now and again, anyways.

They were talking about the Burrow saying "if they take me they take me" thing or whatever. And of course they brought up the Mike Brown won't build a team for him. And I got to thinking, dangerous but anyways, does MB not know what a joke he is nationally ? Does he not understand everybody covers their mouth and chuckles when he walks in a media room ? Does he not understand he's created this monster ?

I'm not no way defending Mike Brown, but the cupboard ain't exactly bare for Joe Burrow. The O line is suspect, and the defense is more miss than hit, but.... You could do worse than AJ Green, Tyler Boyd, Joe Mixon, Auden Tate, and the TEs we refuse to target.

A couple of teams that made the playoffs last year don't have have it as good at the skill positions. The talking heads talk just to talk. Hell they only abandoned the Bengals are criminals narrative a year or so ago.

[*Nately120*]

(02-18-2020, 08:55 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh Wilbon was saying it's all a bunch of horse Shit noise, and I agree.

And I could agree with him totally not caring about public perception if he made his fortune selling flower pots to pete moss or something. But his product isn't on some obscure shelf at Lowes. It's constantly in the media and televised nationally. 

I hear ya, but it's possible to inherit a billion bucks and still strut around like you started off with nothing and are some sort of self-made folk hero.  I still don't see what Burrow has to lose by being comlimentary towards being a Bengal because there is a 99.99% chance he ends up here so so much the better and if the Bengals pass on him after he talks about wanting to be here then the media is just going to completely dismantle our idiot owner/GM so much that it's going to make the Akili Smith non-trade look getting Tom Brady at #199.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2020, 08:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, but it's possible to inherit a billion bucks and still strut around like you started off with nothing and are some sort of self-made folk hero.  I still don't see what Burrow has to lose by being comlimentary towards being a Bengal because there is a 99.99% chance he ends up here so so much the better and if the Bengals pass on him after he talks about wanting to be here then the media is just going to completely dismantle our idiot owner/GM so much that it's going to make the Akili Smith non-trade look getting Tom Brady at #199.

I don't either ? I mean are the _____________ insert NFL team on down the draft board here gonna say, oh no we ain't taking you, you said you would like to be a Bengal. 

My only guess is perhaps his agent and advisers have cautioned him to be totally benign ? Don't ruffle any feathers, they'll bait you into something.

[*Nately120*]

(02-18-2020, 09:14 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't either ? I mean are the _____________ insert NFL team on down the draft board here gonna say, oh no we ain't taking you, you said you would like to be a Bengal. 

My only guess is perhaps his agent and advisers have cautioned him to be totally benign ? Don't ruffle any feathers, they'll bait you into something.

So I listened to PTI and it's interesting Wilbon said the whole Burrow thing is a bunch of BS and hot air but when he and Tony agreed the Lions getting rid of Stafford was a bad move he said he wouldn't be surprised if the Lions did it because that team makes stupid moves all the time.  So it's hard to see where he comes down on "dumb franchises making more dumb moves" but it's also possible that passing on Burrow is a move so stupid not even Mike Brown could do it in a million years.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-18-2020, 09:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So I listened to PTI and it's interesting Wilbon said the whole Burrow thing is a bunch of BS and hot air but when he and Tony agreed the Lions getting rid of Stafford was a bad move he said he wouldn't be surprised if the Lions did it because that team makes stupid moves all the time.  So it's hard to see where he comes down on "dumb franchises making more dumb moves" but it's also possible that passing on Burrow is a move so stupid not even Mike Brown could do it in a million years.

Isn't it weird ? ironic ? I dunno funny ? How these two franchises are basically mirror images of each other. I mean when you consider the Lions were originally the Portsmouth, Ohio Spartans. Portsmouth is a little town 90 or so miles east of Cincinnati on the Ohio river as well.

[*Nately120*]

(02-18-2020, 09:51 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Isn't it weird ? ironic ? I dunno funny ? How these two franchises are basically mirror images of each other. I mean when you consider the Lions were originally the Portsmouth, Ohio Spartans. Portsmouth is a little town 90 or so miles east of Cincinnati on the Ohio river as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martha Ford and Mike Brown were both part of the same blueblood family tree.

[Pat5775]

(02-18-2020, 02:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: And Palmer is just mad he can't claim the Bengals fell apart without him. They improved.

That's all that is. And Dalton never got the FA signings he got (and complains about). We have to call it like it is with Palmer. A scorned ex who is mad the ex upgraded, and waits until the ex is single again to attack and fault them for the failures of their past relationship.

You see he was quiet during Daltons run.

I honestly feel like if Carson got to play for the 2011-2015 Bengal teams, they still would have made the playoffs 5 years in a row and I think it’s likely they win a couple of playoff games (Dalton played ATROCIOUSLY against San Diego and Houston... twice). We’ll obviously never know for sure. But out of the two, Palmer was more physically gifted and a better overall passer. Hard to see the team missing the playoffs those 5 years with Carson at the helm

[*jason*]

(02-18-2020, 10:24 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I honestly feel like if Carson got to play for the 2011-2015 Bengal teams, they still would have made the playoffs 5 years in a row and I think it’s likely they win a couple of playoff games (Dalton played ATROCIOUSLY against San Diego and Houston... twice). We’ll obviously never know for sure. But out of the two, Palmer was more physically gifted and a better overall passer. Hard to see the team missing the playoffs those 5 years with Carson at the helm

Could the re-sign both Dunlap and Geno if they still had Carson? Could they have kept them both, and extended AJ Green? We got the same or better production from Andy Dalton, and he was cheaper.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-18-2020, 01:37 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It'll be interesting to see what Burrow does.  He idolized Brees and I don't think Brews is the kind of guy to do a lot of screaming, rather he leads by example. 

Brees is firey, but more behind closed doors.  He argues with his coach and makes his voice heard, but he doesn't disrespect anyone.  Burrow, like Brees and Brady, have that chip of disrespect.  People will say it is a false bravado, but this is what makes an athlete exceptional:  drive.  Many have the talent, and the skills, but never become truly special because they lack the drive.  

Burrow has commented that his confidence comes from his preparation.  I remember hearing Brady say something to the same effect.  I think the way Burrow won over the coaches and teammates at LSU before he was "Burreax" speaks volumes.  I hesitate to call anyone perfect, but I think he is a perfect fit here, and just what they needed.  

Palmer was the spoiled child with all the talent that got pouty when things didn't go his way.  He had a great run, and I really liked him early on, but instead of looking at himself, he tended to always blame others.  I don't see Burrow ever doing that.  

[*Nately120*]

Burrow is the no brainer #1 pick so i don't see how he can have a chip on his shoulder like Brady the 199th or Brees the guy everyone left for dead over a decade ago.

I can see why Palmer's personality takes a hit but it's hard to imagine Larry Fitzgerald publicly respecting and vouching for a guy who blames others and pouts.  Maybe Palmer just needed a change of scenery because his persona in AZ is the opposite of how we see him as a Bengal.  He did come into Cincy with the confidence that he could change the narrative, though.  

I still maintain that Burrow coming in here screaming or trying to change MB could be the real immovable object meets the irresistible force.

[*pally*]

(02-18-2020, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I caught a bit of PTI on ESPN this evening, that's one of the few shows on there I try to catch every now and again, anyways.

They were talking about the Burrow saying "if they take me they take me" thing or whatever. And of course they brought up the Mike Brown won't build a team for him. And I got to thinking, dangerous but anyways, does MB not know what a joke he is nationally ? Does he not understand everybody covers their mouth and chuckles when he walks in a media room ? Does he not understand he's created this monster ?

Yet owners like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder throw money around like it grows on trees (ok, for them it does) and their records for the last decade have been similar if not worse than the Bengals.

[Catmandude123]

(02-18-2020, 01:40 PM)jj22 Wrote: Palmer couldn't hold Dalton's jock record and success wise here. So not sure why we are skipping over Dalton to compare any new QB to Palmer. It's Dalton they have to live up to, fill and surpass the shoes of.

Palmer was long left in the dust by what Dalton was able to accomplish here. That's why he's mad. Surpassed by a 2nd round pick. Comedy.

   Yeah he is the standard bearer when it comes to choking in the playoffs and in prime time games and losing to the Steelers. Palmer ,Boomer and Anderson were better QBs but played in an era that didn't protect the QB and allowed contact with WRs. Most importantly BTW They all have playoff wins and two of them led their teams to the Super Bowl.

[Bengalitis]

(02-18-2020, 12:16 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Dalton had that it factor but couldn't get his actual game to the next level without a strong supporting cast around him. 

I'm gonna have to disagree with this line. Dalton has had a RB & WR to help him get a playoff win, heck even one thing he had that Carson never had was a TE.