Palmer v Burrow

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 09:39 AM)pally Wrote: Yet owners like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder throw money around like it grows on trees (ok, for them it does) and their records for the last decade have been similar if not worse than the Bengals.

They are also proven wrong yet stubbornly hands-on and full of "my way or else" BS like Mike Brown.  Staying an ineffective course is what seems to correlate with futility more than anything else. 

[Housh]

(02-18-2020, 02:55 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: The problem both Palmer and to a lesser extent Dalton, but he’s definitely had his moments, is when the pressure gets cranked up, they play their worst. The “it” factor I’m looking for is what guys like Brees and Brady have, and younger guys like Mahomes and Watson are showing, the higher the pressure, the better they play.

Nope nope. The only reason Carson and Andy failed was because of the FO. Carson played like the best QB ever and it’s all Miley’s fault.

[Housh]

The heat the Bengals get come from the 90s imo. In the 2000s which is 19 seasons in so far we’ve made playoffs about half the time. And in many of those losing seasons we were highly competitive. There are franchises who haven’t had that success. So acting as if the Bengals are some anomaly of failure is insane.

In Carson and Andy’s cases specifically I think Carson has a ring if he doesn’t have that knee injury. And after his shoulder injury he was never the same. To Carson’s credit tho when he was in his prime we should’ve done more for him. Chris Henry dying also hurt us. That man was a huge weapon.


Dalton really has no excuse because he turned to pure shit in the playoffs all but one time in his career

[CJD]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so if this has been brought up I apologize. But I looked through some 2003 internet articles (there aren't many) about Carson and this basically answers your question about leadership:

"Leadership? More debate. One scout notes that "Palmer is a nice kid....very well-liked by his coaches and teammates." Another scout calls him, "a wallflower...real low on personality...hardly inspirational.""

http://www.espn.com/chrismortensen/s/2003/0318/1525546.html

So, basically, people didn't think he was that great of a leader. Well liked, but quiet and boring.

[XenoMorph]

Palmer was bigger and thicker... But I think burrow could take him..

Is the cage match set yet?

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 10:58 AM)Housh Wrote: The heat the Bengals get come from the 90s imo. In the 2000s which is 19 seasons in so far we’ve made playoffs about half the time. And in many of those losing seasons we were highly competitive. There are franchises who haven’t had that success. So acting as if the Bengals are some anomaly of failure is insane.

In Carson and Andy’s cases specifically I think Carson has a ring if he doesn’t have that knee injury. And after his shoulder injury he was never the same. To Carson’s credit tho when he was in his prime we should’ve done more for him. Chris Henry dying also hurt us. That man was a huge weapon.


Dalton really has no excuse because he turned to pure shit in the playoffs all but one time in his career

Palmer had one of his best seasons a decade after the knee injury and 7 years after the elbow issue.  He's no HoF QB by any stretch but the idea that he was cooked after his first contract is a bit of a misconception. 

[jj22]

(02-18-2020, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I caught a bit of PTI on ESPN this evening, that's one of the few shows on there I try to catch every now and again, anyways.

They were talking about the Burrow saying "if they take me they take me" thing or whatever. And of course they brought up the Mike Brown won't build a team for him. And I got to thinking, dangerous but anyways, does MB not know what a joke he is nationally ? Does he not understand everybody covers their mouth and chuckles when he walks in a media room ? Does he not understand he's created this monster ?

He does. He just doesn't care.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 11:04 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Palmer was bigger and thicker... But I think burrow could take him..

Is the cage match set yet?

Oy the life of a Bengals fan.  While other fans can talk about which HoF QB they had was the best or which of the SB wins was the most exciting we have stuff like:

Boomer vs Palmer - which QB demanded a trade better?
Palmer vs Burrow - which QB looked more scared when Boomer "welcomed him to the Bengals?"
2005 vs 2015 - which one-and-done season that totally shouldabeen a SB winning year was more likely to happen?
Dalton vs Palmer - which guy was more quiet and boring?
Marvin vs Marvin - who clapped and giggled best/most?
Being active at the trade deadline vs Going Skiingg - which is best?
Paul Brown vs Mike Brown - are these guys actually related?

[jj22]

(02-18-2020, 10:24 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I honestly feel like if Carson got to play for the 2011-2015 Bengal teams, they still would have made the playoffs 5 years in a row and I think it’s likely they win a couple of playoff games (Dalton played ATROCIOUSLY against San Diego and Houston... twice). We’ll obviously never know for sure. But out of the two, Palmer was more physically gifted and a better overall passer. Hard to see the team missing the playoffs those 5 years with Carson at the helm

Palmer couldn't make the playoffs 5 years in a row with Chad/TJ/Henry/Rudy/Perry Probowl and allpro corners, Franchise/Probowl LT, LG, RT, RG and C..... And a hell of a lot more free agent signings then Dalton ever had (but you don't see Dalton complaining or having quit)....

Every year Dalton lost significant people (MJ, Sanu, Whit, Z etc)

Palmer failed and that's why he's mad. Dalton, a second round scrub, had far more success and erased him from the record books. That's all that this is about. He was quiet when Dalton was around because he couldn't talk about how bad the Franchise was when a 2nd round pick showed what could be done with any type of leadership from the QB position.

[jj22]

(02-19-2020, 10:04 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote:    Yeah he is the standard bearer when it comes to choking in the playoffs and in prime time games and losing to the Steelers. Palmer ,Boomer and Anderson were better QBs but played in an era that didn't protect the QB and allowed contact with WRs. Most importantly BTW They all have playoff wins and two of them led their teams to the Super Bowl.

Palmers playoff stats (and playoff wins elsewhere) are nothing to boast about in your attempt to slam Dalton. Which is all this is about to you. I'm speaking of Palmer as a Bengals QB. You using his days with Arizona means nothing to what he did here.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 12:43 PM)jj22 Wrote: Palmer couldn't make the playoffs 5 years in a row with Chad/TJ/Henry/Rudy Probowl and allpro corners Franchise/Probowl LT, LG, RT, RG and C..... A hell of a lot more free agent signings then Dalton ever had....

Every year Dalton lost significant people (MJ, Sanu, Whit, Z etc)

The list goes on and on.

Palmer failed and that's why he's mad. Dalton, a second round scrub, had far more success and erased him from the record books. That's all that this is about. He was quiet when Dalton was around because he couldn't talk.

Ehh, record books schmrecord books.  Dalton broke Palmer's records while Palmer has the best win % of any long-term Cardinals QB ever (yes, even Kurt Warner was under .500 there) and other pretty stats and so on.  It's just ringless banter, but again I still think we as Bengals fans love the idea that Palmer and Dalton would hate each other and have some sort of bitter rivalry when they'd probably actually bond over being Bengals QBs more than anything.

The bottom line is Palmer didn't win a ring without us and we didn't win a ring without him.  As far as NFL rivalries go the Palmer vs Dalton one is completely irrelevant outside of Cincy and it's winding down even among Bengals fans.  Palmer found a home with the woebegone Cardinals and maybe Dalton finds a team with a starving ring of honor he can get into by pseudo-default too.

(02-19-2020, 12:50 PM)jj22 Wrote: Palmers playoff stats (and playoff wins elsewhere) are nothing to boast about in your attempt to slam Dalton. Which is all this is about to you. I'm speaking of Palmer as a Bengals QB. You using his days with Arizona means nothing to what he did here.

That's the main thing...the minor things of note about Palmer like the jersey he had in the HoF for throwing for 4000 yards with 3 different teams and the ring of honor stuff is with the Cardinals.  The guy retired in AZ and found something of a home there so other than people asking him to reiterate his disdain for Mike Brown, his Bengals and Raiders days lack relevance outside of a dwindling segment of NFL fans.

[jj22]

I don't think it's a rivalry, I just wonder why Palmer is looked at as the shoes Burrow needs to fill or be compared to when Palmer couldn't even walk in Daltons shoes here.

And folks pointing to his success and record books with Arizona won't mean much as it relates to what he did here and what the next QB has to surpass here. People want Burrow to do more for the franchise then 2 playoff appearances in 9 years? Shouldn't we want him to do better than Dalton's 5 in 9 years? It's Dalton he needs to surpass, not Palmer. Palmer has been left in the dust here with Daltons success.

We can compare their outside success when Dalton starts elsewhere. Until then, not sure why people are pointing to Arizona so much.

It's Dalton who showed we can consistently win here and with a better more clutch QB maybe even win playoff games.

Palmer still crying for more free agent help. A former top prospect and number one pick crying about needing more help and a star team around him to win when he got more help then Dalton ever did and still couldn't do what Dalton a scrub did. Comedy.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 12:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think it's a rivalry, I just wonder why Palmer is looked at as the shoes Burrow needs to fill or be compared to when Palmer couldn't even walk in Daltons shoes here.

And folks pointing to his success and record books with Arizona won't mean much as it relates to what he did here and what the next QB has to surpass.

We can compare their outside success when Dalton starts elsewhere. Until then, not sure why people are pointing to Arizona so much.

If anything Palmer having a modicum of success (by the standards of loser franchises, let's be honest here) in AZ is relevant in the sense that the current topic of debate is "Will the Bengals limit Burrow's success and potential?"  Palmer achieving more in the twilight of his career than he did in his prime may indicate the organization he spent said prime with wasn't exactly setting him up for success.

Dalton having a better winning percentage than Palmer in Cincy leads to me saying Palmer had a better winning percentage in AZ than Kurt Warner.  It's a nice stat, but it's not something a man on the street in Anytown USA is going to care about.

Again, this isn't me saying Palmer is a godly QB but you have to admit him doing better when he wasn't with the Bengals and Raiders MAY indicate something.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 12:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: Palmer still crying for more free agent help. A former top prospect and number one pick crying about needing more help and a star team around him to win when he got more help then Dalton ever did and still couldn't do what Dalton a scrub did. Comedy.

I'm going to assume you aren't one of the people who hopes Burrow comes in here and starts demanding Mike Brown get off his arse and make this team a winner, then?  I mean, there is a real chance we are going to miss Dalton's "go with the flow" attitude if we don't get to winning with Burrow in a hurry.

Burrow is a can't miss prospect and #1 pick QB. Should he use his influence to try to make the team better?

[jj22]

(02-19-2020, 01:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm going to assume you aren't one of the people who hopes Burrow comes in here and starts demanding Mike Brown get off his arse and make this team a winner, then?  I mean, there is a real chance we are going to miss Dalton's "go with the flow" attitude if we don't get to winning with Burrow in a hurry.

Burrow is a can't miss prospect and #1 pick QB.  Should he use his influence to try to make the team better?

I don't think a powerplay to change the way they operate will work with MB anyway. If a new HC couldn't get a change (outside of some new offices) a rookie can't. But no. I'm in the boat that if we can get to the playoff's 5 straight times with Dalton and his limitations working with this inept FO and Franchise, then Burrow can get us there and seems clutch enough to get wins under the "work environment" MB has established.

It's just a matter of the experience and ability of the coaches. Marvin and his staffs could probably make it work with Burrow.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 01:06 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think it'll work with MB anyway. But no. I'm in the boat that if we can get to the playoff's 5 straight times with Dalton and his limitations working with this inept FO and Franchise, then Burrow can get us there and seems clutch enough to get wins under the "work environment" MB has.

It's just a matter of the experience and ability of the coaches.

I can see Burrow succeeding here, yes.  The issue I see though is that the media is setting up this "Would Burrow be better off going somewhere else?" or the "Will the Bengals limit Burrow's success and impact in the NFL?" and I can't in good faith deny the legitimacy of those concerns.

That's what is frustrating about the Bengals...the optimistic take is basically "Maybe if we have the best QB to come out of college ever we can win something."  That's rough, especially in a league where QBs like Rex Grossman and Mark Sanchez and Bort Bortles and more recently Ryan "discarded by a lousy franchise" Tannehill make deep playoff runs.

But I'm with you.  I'm hoping Burrow is good enough to drag Mike Brown to relevancy...I look at this as Bengals QB vs Mike Brown as I did with late-era Boomer, Palmer, Dalton, and anyone who wasn't an insta-bust like Klingler and Smith. 2020 Burrow is like looking at Palmer and wondering if we had traded down and he went to the Bears could he have won the SB Rex Grossman couldn't with that amazing defense and ST unit. Stuff like that.

[XenoMorph]

(02-19-2020, 01:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I can see Burrow succeeding here, yes.  The issue I see though is that the media is setting up this "Would Burrow be better off going somewhere else?" or the "Will the Bengals limit Burrow's success and impact in the NFL?" and I can't in good faith deny the legitimacy of those concerns.

That's what is frustrating about the Bengals...the optimistic take is basically "Maybe if we have the best QB to come out of college ever we can win something."  That's rough, especially in a league where QBs like Rex Grossman and Mark Sanchez and Bort Bortles and more recently Ryan "discarded by a lousy franchise" Tannehill make deep playoff runs.

But I'm with you.  I'm hoping Burrow is good enough to drag Mike Brown to relevancy...I look at this as Bengals QB vs Mike Brown as I did with late-era Boomer, Palmer, Dalton, and anyone who wasn't an insta-bust like Klingler and Smith.  2020 Burrow is like looking at Palmer and wondering if we had traded down and he went to the Bears could he have won the SB Rex Grossman couldn't with that amazing defense and ST unit.  Stuff like that.

The Answer is the same every year...

YES the Best player in the Draft would be better off going to any team but last years last place team lol

but that's why the draft is set up the way it is... to help the worst teams from last year get (first chance to select) the best players.

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 01:16 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: The Answer is the same every year...

YES the Best player in the Draft would be better off going to any team but last years last place team lol

but that's why the draft is set up the way it is...  to help the worst teams from last year get (first chance to select) the best players.

Oh I agree.  THe last team to win a SB with a QB they took first off the board was the Colts with Peyton Manning in 2006 and they took him in 1998.  I think the negative cloud around the Bengals comes from the aura of "same ol' song 'n' dance" we get since MB has been in control so long.

How many other teams have the same GM draft multiple #1 overall or first off the board QBs?  Isn't this Mike Brown's 4th crack at it? Klingler/Smith/Palmer/Burrow, right? I think Burrow is a no-brainer and will be great, but it's just business as usual in Cincy and that sort of thing can take the excitement off of someone even as dynamic as Burrow.

Sure we are pumped, but the rest of football fans? I'd say they're going to worry for the kid.

[XenoMorph]

(02-19-2020, 01:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Oh I agree.  THe last team to win a SB with a QB they took first off the board was the Colts with Peyton Manning in 2006 and they took him in 1998.  I think the negative cloud around the Bengals comes from the aura of "same ol' song 'n' dance" we get since MB has been in control so long.

How many other teams have the same GM draft multiple #1 overall or first off the board QBs?  Isn't this Mike Brown's 4th crack at it?  Klingler/Smith/Palmer/Burrow, right?  I think Burrow is a no-brainer and will be great, but it's just business as usual in Cincy and that sort of thing can take the excitement off of someone even as dynamic as Burrow.

Sure we are pumped, but the rest of football fans?  I'd say they're going to worry for the kid.

I believe this is mike browns only 2nd 1st overall pick...  Palmer was the first and now whoever we get in april

Smith was R1P3
Klinger was R1P6

[*Nately120*]

(02-19-2020, 01:31 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I believe this is mike browns only 2nd 1st overall pick...  Palmer was the first and now whoever we get in april

Smith was R1P3
Klinger was R1P6

Klingler was the first QB off the board, Smith wasn't.  So it's MB's third top QB pick, not fourth.  Oy, I forgot he didn't take the Saints' haul of picks for what wasn't even the 1st QB in the draft.  Ouch.