Whole Lotta Change

[Attackcat]

this is the first time in years im cautiously optimistic about a bengals football season. who dey.

[samhain]

(03-25-2020, 10:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I gotta wonder what guys like Marvin Lewis and Mike Zimmer are thinking about all of these sudden and drastic changes in roster management in Cincinnati?

Yeah, no shit.  I'm sure there were seasons that Marv would've loved to have been able to get them to shell out money for Reader/Waynes type deals for outside players.  

Zac must really be working some voodoo on the family.  Either that, or the Burrow not wanting to come here BS ticked them off enough to make some changes perhaps?  They's gotten roasted all offseason for not trying hard enough.  Haters like me shit on them all the time for it, but that doesn't mean squat to them.  People like me aren't going anywhere no matter how crappy they are.  I think hearing the message blasting every day from the national media may have struck a bit of a nerve.  

I think the empty stadium for such a long time played a role as well.  They get their check from the league, but in the end, there's more money to be made and lots of it if you have something people want to buy.  The Family can be as traditional and stubborn as they want, but they've pissed good money away by sticking to their principles over the last few years.  

[SunsetBengal]

(03-26-2020, 02:02 AM)samhain Wrote: I think the empty stadium for such a long time played a role as well.  They get their check from the league, but in the end, there's more money to be made and lots of it if you have something people want to buy. 

I have to think that the empty seats played a role in the decision to "open things up".  They have always prided themselves on being a family business.  Most family businesses are prideful in the product that they put out.  Having so many season ticket holders walk away likely was enough to send the message.

[NATI BENGALS]

Another thing that could come in to play is something I have not seen pointed out yet. All of our own vets who we would normally re-sign are not ZT guys. He didn't draft these guys. Where as if Marvin was still here he would be all about keeping all the guys he helped draft. Same as with most head coaches. They scouted and drafted guys and spend 4 years coaching them up. So naturally they would want them back.

ZT has no such connection. Hopefully we get a big jump in performance this year and ZT learns a career lesson... Looking to outside free agents to reinforce your roster can be beneficial.

[Sled21]

Well, one thing is for sure.....NOBODY is running on this team.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 07:43 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Another thing that could come in to play is something I have not seen pointed out yet. All of our own vets who we would normally re-sign are not ZT guys. He didn't draft these guys. Where as if Marvin was still here he would be all about keeping all the guys he helped draft. Same as with most head coaches. They scouted and drafted guys and spend 4 years coaching them up. So naturally they would want them back.

ZT has no such connection. Hopefully we get a big jump in performance this year and ZT learns a career lesson... Looking to outside free agents to reinforce your roster can be beneficial.

Look at the guys he's jettisoned. With the exception of Cordy Glenn the players he's outright cut, John Miller and BW Webb, were his own signings. The likes of John Jerry, Kerry Wynn, LaRoy Reynolds not invited back, even as depth. Last year the two of his draft picks (Deshaun Davis and Jordan Brown) didn't even resurface on the PS.

I believe the only out of contract Zac signing to re-emerge is Torry McTyer and I doubt he's more than training camp numbers.

Then look at the big moves this off season. About to draft a QB in the first a year after trading up (only the 5th time ever in Bengals history!) for one and after carrying 3 QBs on the roster all last year. The big free agency signing being a nose tackle when you took a developmental prospect at that position in the 4th. Signing 5(!) corners this off season, a year after drafting one that couldn't even stick on the practice squad.

This is as much a clear out of Zac's guys as Marvin's guys.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-25-2020, 08:50 PM)Mobster Wrote: In previous years, we woulda re-signed Billings and Vigil, because, you know, we like to keep our own guys. Woulda tried to keep dennard, but he wanted to leave so he would've gotten away and we would've signed a cheap tier 4 free agent replacement to play slot. Then Hobson would be writing articles about how we have no more cap room to add anyone else making more than the minimum

And someone acknowledged this on another thread...Bell even said that they drew a line in the sand and said "enough".  They got guys from organizations coming off winning seasons and that love football.  I don't know if Billings and Vigil loved football, but I can tell that guys like Reader and Bynes do...That really matters.

Now, continue on this trajectory and draft some alpha dogs like Queen, Claypool, and Dugger and start being the puncher instead of the punched.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-26-2020, 08:56 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Look at the guys he's jettisoned. With the exception of Cordy Glenn the players he's outright cut, John Miller and BW Webb, were his own signings. The likes of John Jerry, Kerry Wynn, LaRoy Reynolds not invited back, even as depth. Last year the two of his draft picks (Deshaun Davis and Jordan Brown) didn't even resurface on the PS.

I believe the only out of contract Zac signing to re-emerge is Torry McTyer and I doubt he's more than training camp numbers.

Then look at the big moves this off season. About to draft a QB in the first a year after trading up (only the 5th time ever in Bengals history!) for one and after carrying 3 QBs on the roster all last year. The big free agency signing being a nose tackle when you took a developmental prospect at that position in the 4th. Signing 5(!) corners this off season, a year after drafting one that couldn't even stick on the practice squad.

This is as much a clear out of Zac's guys as Marvin's guys.

Good points. Maybe he learned quite a bit from a 2-14 year and his first as a head coach. 

[Luvnit2]

(03-25-2020, 09:07 PM)Benton Wrote: So, I've been quarantined for the last two weeks and reading a lot of the signings. (Sidenote: I'm friggin excited).

But I had a thought: maybe Mike wasnt the reason we were so darn cheap. Maybe it was... Marvin.

I get the obvious question: why would any coach ham string himself by not signing big free agents?

Well, here's my thought. Marvin Lewis signed on 30+ years ago (that's what it felt like). He hires in and Mike, citing not wanting to go spending crazy, nixes some potential signings. As time goes on, Marvin gets more roster control, but he doesn't realise his spending limit has increased, too. Mike, as a lot of bosses do, think his feelings are known and doesn't really express it. Instead, he goes off the recommendation of his coach.

Maybe Mike Brown isn't the cheapest guy in the world, maybe Marvin just wasn't good at asking to use the checkbook?

There is no facts to back up the cheap claim on MB as far as the money he has spent on labor (salaries and bonuses) since the old 2011 bargaining agreement. MB and the Bengals are in the middle of the pack of 32 teams spending in spite of being in the bottom third of the league in size of market they operate.

[Sled21]

(03-26-2020, 10:07 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And someone acknowledged this on another thread...Bell even said that they drew a line in the sand and said "enough".  They got guys from organizations coming off winning seasons and that love football.  I don't know if Billings and Vigil loved football, but I can tell that guys like Reader and Bynes do...That really matters.

Now, continue on this trajectory and draft some alpha dogs like Queen, Claypool, and Dugger and start being the puncher instead of the punched.  

While all the other signings said the usual stuff about "Can't wait to get there" and Reader going on about how happy he is to get to play with Geno, Bell's statements can be construed as calling some guys out. When he said they are brining in players who love the game, he's basically saying some those already here do not. He also said the Bengals are getting a proven leader who can come in a "lead the Apha Dogs"  I love his confidence, but I can see where some players might be offended. Well, too bad.... it's a NEW DEY!!!

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-26-2020, 10:49 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Good points. Maybe he learned quite a bit from a 2-14 year and his first as a head coach. 

Yep, that's the hope.

This was never going to be a one year turn around with such an inexperienced coach. The key thing now is does he learn from his mistakes and improve with experience. This off season has been promising in that regard.

I don't expect him to be fully up to speed for another 3 or 4 years but that first year is the steepest bit.

[fredtoast]

(03-26-2020, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: One season removed from Marvin and we go on the biggest spending spree in franchise history.

We never sucked as bad under Marvin as we did last year.

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2020, 10:56 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote:  Marvin truly believed he could “coach up” Nick Vigil into the next Ray Lewis but that’s not possible.

He was too conservative on the field and in free agency too

(03-26-2020, 07:43 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Where as if Marvin was still here he would be all about keeping all the guys he helped draft.

You guys have no idea what you are talking about.

I am pretty sure there were plenty of times Marvin wanted more talent and/or more expensive free agents.

[Cicero]

At minimum I am happy to not read about rookie pools or injury funds from Hobson. Feels like Christmas around here right now. Also it is nice to talk football rather than viruses.

[fredtoast]

Additions
DT- DJ Reader.....Awesome signing for 32nd ranked run defense.
LB- Josh Bynes…..Career back up, not an upgrade.
CB- Trae Waynes..Great signing
CB- Mackensie Alexander..Great signing
CB- LeShaun Sims...Meh
CB- Winston Rose...Meh
CB- Tony Brown......Meh
SS- Vonn Bell...……..Fantastic signing.  I actually value it more than the CBs we signed.
OG- Xavier Sua-F'ilo..Not really better than Miller, but if he fits our scheme better it is an upgrade
WR- Mike Thomas...Meh

Subtractions
TE- Tyler Eifert...wanted to re-sign him but not at the price he got (2 yr $15 mill)
OT- Cordy Glenn.had to go, but the o-line was much better when he was in there.  
OG- John Miller....see: Xavier Sua-F'ilo
DT- Andrew Billings..planned on re-signing him but not in Readers class 
LB- Nick Vigil......not a big loss, but Bynes is no better
SS- Clayton Fejedelem..Meh 
CB- Darqueze Dennard..Planned on re-signing him, but we signed upgrades 
CB- BW Webb...Maeh
CB- Tony McRae...Meh


Still have big holes at OG and LB.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-26-2020, 12:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We never sucked as bad under Marvin as we did last year.

We never had a worse roster, either, and he was one of those that assembled it.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-26-2020, 12:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Additions
DT- DJ Reader.....Awesome signing for 32nd ranked run defense.
LB- Josh Bynes…..Career back up, not an upgrade.
CB- Trae Waynes..Great signing
CB- Mackensie Alexander..Great signing
CB- LeShaun Sims...Meh
CB- Winston Rose...Meh
CB- Tony Brown......Meh
SS- Vonn Bell...……..Fantastic signing.  I actually value it more than the CBs we signed.
OG- Xavier Sua-F'ilo..Not really better than Miller, but if he fits our scheme better it is an upgrade
WR- Mike Thomas...Meh

Subtractions
TE- Tyler Eifert...wanted to re-sign him but not at the price he got (2 yr $15 mill)
OT- Cordy Glenn.had to go, but the o-line was much better when he was in there.  
OG- John Miller....see: Xavier Sua-F'ilo
DT- Andrew Billings..planned on re-signing him but not in Readers class 
LB- Nick Vigil......not a big loss, but Bynes is no better
SS- Clayton Fejedelem..Meh 
CB- Darqueze Dennard..Planned on re-signing him, but we signed upgrades 
CB- BW Webb...Maeh
CB- Tony McRae...Meh


Still have big holes at OG and LB.

Two points:  One, the career backup label for Bynes isn't very accurate.  He was a starter in base defense, and was superior against the run (there are those words again) compared to his other Raven LBs.  To say he isn't an upgrade when you consider the player that played his role at the beginning of last season was Preston Brown is foolish.  Or even at the end of the year, Vigil whiffs on far too many tackles.  Bynes is a solid run-stuffing LB and that is an absolute upgrade over what we had.  

Two, the comment about the line being better with Glenn in there is accurate, but it is also what gives me hope this year.  We lost the starting and backup LTs early last year.  The line started to improve when Glenn was back as you mentioned.  When you consider Williams, who although is a complete unknown talent at the NFL level, we do know the kid is a football savant and works his ass off in both preparation and study.  The rest of the line seemed to take shape once the LT position was solidified by an uninterested, out of shape, Cordy Glenn.  Think of what an offseason with Williams at LT, Jordan in year 2, XSF (possibly at LG and Jordan at RG since XSF is known for his strength as a pulling guard), and an ascending Hart.  I can't believe I wrote that last line, but he will have Fred Johnson breathing down his neck if he doesn't show up ready to go and continues to improve.

I just think the line isn't as bad as we all have made it out to be.  It was just the perfect storm last season.  And I think Burrow's vision and pocket awareness will shine as he will not always roll out to his right.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 12:17 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: Read a good article on The Draft Network earlier talking about that. Here's a few of their takeaways:

'...the Bengals, despite starting slowly with their spending, have quietly pieced together a strong offseason that will buy them the most valuable approach possible to the upcoming draft: flexibility.

The Bengals are no longer shackled by the limitations of their roster — thanks in large part to their approach in free agency to attack the defensive side of the football.

All of these signings add up to a potential nickel package that features Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins, Sam Hubbard, Germaine Pratt, Dre Kirkpatrick, Jackson, Waynes, Alexander, Reader, Bates and Bell; a notable collection of talent that should hold their own if the football gods allow everyone involved to stay healthy in 2020.

...the Bengals can select whoever is determined to be the best difference-maker at No. 33, a key pick that is typically highly coveted after the intermission between the draft's first and second night.

If I were the Bengals, I'd be earmarking Burrow, a possible athletic linebacker at No. 33 and then transitioning my eyes to a deep wide receiver class and hoping to pluck a potential starting guard somewhere along the way. If they walk out of the draft with an athletic linebacker and two starters on offense, it will be hard to imagine this team picking back inside the top three again in 2021.'

That is a well spoken article. They know our needs and the way we should go about the Draft.

Is this from a Bengals fan? Kind of find it hard to believe there are media people that actually know about this team?

Lots of the time they cannot even pronounce the name of the team correctly or its players.

[BengalChris]

(03-25-2020, 08:04 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: What are your thoughts on how things have transpired so far this off-season?
How much better do you expect the Bengals to be as a result these changes?

Additions
DT- DJ Reader
LB- Josh Bynes
CB- Trae Waynes
CB- Mackensie Alexander
CB- LeShaun Sims
CB- Winston Rose
CB- Tony Brown
SS- Vonn Bell
OG- Xavier Sua-F'ilo
WR- Mike Thomas

Subtractions
TE- Tyler Eifert
OT- Cordy Glenn
OG- John Miller
DT- Andrew Billings 
LB- Nick Vigil
SS- Clayton Fejedelem 
CB- Darqueze Dennard 
CB- BW Webb
CB- Tony McRae

It's the best off-season I've seen by the Bengals since Mike Brown took over the team.

For the first time in 29 years I feel like the owner actually does want to win a championship. Maybe he's just a late bloomer. LOL

 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2020, 03:22 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's the best off-season I've seen by the Bengals since Mike Brown took over the team.

For the first time in 29 years I feel like the owner actually does want to win a championship. Maybe he's just a late bloomer. LOL

 

Real late...