Back End Speed Concerns

[GreenCornBengal]

I love the direction of the new defense, but I think there is still one main area of concern (assuming the LB room is somewhat fixed).

We have really emphasized tackling and stopping the run, which is great for winning our division. It all starts with beating your divisional opponents. However, I'm concerned about how this strategy will fair against teams like the Chiefs (assuming we would have to face them in the playoffs for years to come if we get back there). I'm not sure that we have the necessary speed in the secondary to keep up with the current air raid offensive trends. I think we could invest in a speedy slot corner at some point, and we need to be very focused on not blowing assignments as we did a few too many times last year. I have faith in Jesse Bates, but I'm not sure that Williams and Bell are suited for defending against those burner types. With how the secondary sits right now, I can see us still getting out-schemed here....

I think this should be a point of emphasis in next years draft, after further addition to the O-line.

[*pally*]

can't fix all the issues in one draft. However, by being better able to stop the run and getting better at rushing the passer helps to mitigate speed issues on the back end. No time to throw=shorter passes

[fozzie11]

Wait who are we worried about not having speed? Our top 3 corners all run sub 4.5 forties and safeties really don’t need to be that fast it’s more about taking good angles on deep balls

[SunsetBengal]

They have good speed at CB. Jackson 4.37, Alexander 4.47, Waynes 4.31

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-26-2020, 05:55 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I love the direction of the new defense, but I think there is still one main area of concern (assuming the LB room is somewhat fixed).

We have really emphasized tackling and stopping the run, which is great for winning our division. It all starts with beating your divisional opponents. However, I'm concerned about how this strategy will fair against teams like the Chiefs (assuming we would have to face them in the playoffs for years to come if we get back there). I'm not sure that we have the necessary speed in the secondary to keep up with the current air raid offensive trends. I think we could invest in a speedy slot corner at some point, and we need to be very focused on not blowing assignments as we did a few too many times last year. I have faith in Jesse Bates, but I'm not sure that Williams and Bell are suited for defending against those burner types. With how the secondary sits right now, I can see us still getting out-schemed here....

I think this should be a point of emphasis in next years draft, after further addition to the O-line.

It is a legitimate concern, but don't forget that if his medicals are ok (big if), ADG will play a hybrid role outside and has outstanding speed.  We also have seemingly forgotten about Darius Phillips, a burner that showed VERY well as he took over for Kirkpatrick last year.  That is QUALITY depth, with starter potential.  If WJIII doesn't return to form (and he is also a 4.3 guy),  they may choose to go with Phillips and not extend WJIII.  Amazing, considering how that guy started.  

Mackenzie Alexander has real speed in the slot as well.  The biggest issue that plagued the defense was lack of speed and range at LB.  The front four could rarely get home because opposing QBs had such an easy option out of the backfield with RBs, TEs, or some slot WRs.  The coverage was awful.  No longer.  

The Bengals rarely got beat over the top, but got nickel-and-dimed all day long.  I think the long speed on the back end is just fine and the entire recipe will create a nice product in the end.  

I also believe having rotational players to keep the starters fresh is a huge benefit to their upgraded roster.  

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2020, 09:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They have good speed at CB.  Jackson 4.37, Alexander 4.47, Waynes 4.31

Thank you! This is reassuring. For some reason I thought Alexander ran above a 4.5.

Was having flashbacks and PTSD thinking about the Cheifs and Saints and how we faired against them over the past 2 years.

As someone eluded to earlier, hopefully an increased pass rush will help as well.

Thanks for the sanity check chums.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2020, 10:47 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is a legitimate concern, but don't forget that if his medicals are ok (big if), ADG will play a hybrid role outside and has outstanding speed.  We also have seemingly forgotten about Darius Phillips, a burner that showed VERY well as he took over for Kirkpatrick last year.  That is QUALITY depth, with starter potential.  If WJIII doesn't return to form (and he is also a 4.3 guy),  they may choose to go with Phillips and not extend WJIII.  Amazing, considering how that guy started.  

Mackenzie Alexander has real speed in the slot as well.  The biggest issue that plagued the defense was lack of speed and range at LB.  The front four could rarely get home because opposing QBs had such an easy option out of the backfield with RBs, TEs, or some slot WRs.  The coverage was awful.  No longer.  

The Bengals rarely got beat over the top, but got nickel-and-dimed all day long.  I think the long speed on the back end is just fine and the entire recipe will create a nice product in the end.  

I also believe having rotational players to keep the starters fresh is a huge benefit to their upgraded roster.  

I hope Darius can tighten up his game as he may have the best ball skills of any corner on this team. 

I miss the days of a turnover forcing D when we had Reggie Nelson and co flying around the field. Super excited to see a secondary closer to that!

[Sled21]

(04-26-2020, 09:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They have good speed at CB.  Jackson 4.37, Alexander 4.47, Waynes 4.31

I was thinking the same thing. At one time, WJIII was clocked as the fastest man in the NFL. We do not lack speed.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2020, 10:51 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I was thinking the same thing. At one time, WJIII was clocked as the fastest man in the NFL. We do not lack speed.

Thinking more about this now that we have established it wasn't the speed. Perhaps it was the fact that we had to really focus the run to even stop it. The entire defense had to have its eyes in the backfield out of necessity. The Reader pickup + improved LB corp. will let them get back to focusing on coverage. Lovin it.

[jfkbengals]

(04-26-2020, 05:55 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I love the direction of the new defense, but I think there is still one main area of concern (assuming the LB room is somewhat fixed).

We have really emphasized tackling and stopping the run, which is great for winning our division. It all starts with beating your divisional opponents. However, I'm concerned about how this strategy will fair against teams like the Chiefs (assuming we would have to face them in the playoffs for years to come if we get back there). I'm not sure that we have the necessary speed in the secondary to keep up with the current air raid offensive trends. I think we could invest in a speedy slot corner at some point, and we need to be very focused on not blowing assignments as we did a few too many times last year. I have faith in Jesse Bates, but I'm not sure that Williams and Bell are suited for defending against those burner types. With how the secondary sits right now, I can see us still getting out-schemed here....

I think this should be a point of emphasis in next years draft, after further addition to the O-line.

All the more reason to have a ball control offense which keeps them on the sidelines and fresh legs on our defenders.  Get yourself a lead and let the secondary sit back deep with the line's ears pinned back

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-26-2020, 10:50 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I hope Darius can tighten up his game as he may have the best ball skills of any corner on this team. 

I miss the days of a turnover forcing D when we had Reggie Nelson and co flying around the field. Super excited to see a secondary closer to that!

No doubt.  I think the improvements at LB will be felt across the entire defense.  The last time the Bengals had a really solid LB squad was 2005 and they had a shit-ton of turnovers.  I remember the NFC North was our non-conference matchup that year and each of the 4 teams in that division had 4 INTs against the Bengals.  It almost doesn't seem possible.  One was Favre.  QBs hate pressure, and LBs that can take away the checkdowns.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-26-2020, 10:47 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Thank you! This is reassuring. For some reason I thought Alexander ran above a 4.5.

Was having flashbacks and PTSD thinking about the Cheifs and Saints and how we faired against them over the past 2 years.

As someone eluded to earlier, hopefully an increased pass rush will help as well.

Thanks for the sanity check chums.

That Saints game is a thing of beauty to watch...if you are a Saints fan.  Brees never forced it down the field.  Not once.  He just said, ok, this is what they are giving me, I will take it all day long.  Short, intermediate, routes that would net about 6 yards in the air and 6 more YAC.  I remember thinking he was going to break the consecutive completion record and one of his guys flat out dropped one.  

Chiefs did a lot of the same thing.  It wasn't deep balls, but crossers and a lot of seam routes to TEs where, again, the middle of the field was wide open.  Not on purpose, but we allowed them to do it.  

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2020, 11:12 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That Saints game is a thing of beauty to watch...if you are a Saints fan.  Brees never forced it down the field.  Not once.  He just said, ok, this is what they are giving me, I will take it all day long.  Short, intermediate, routes that would net about 6 yards in the air and 6 more YAC.  I remember thinking he was going to break the consecutive completion record and one of his guys flat out dropped one.  

Chiefs did a lot of the same thing.  It wasn't deep balls, but crossers and a lot of seam routes to TEs where, again, the middle of the field was wide open.  Not on purpose, but we allowed them to do it.  

I was on a couch in Vegas watching that one with this lame Steelers couple at the table next to me. They were more giddy about the Saints beating the Bengals than the actual Steelers game.... I drank most of my memories away that day to say the least lol

[phil413]

(04-26-2020, 09:28 AM)pally Wrote: can't fix all the issues in one draft.  However, by being better able to stop the run and getting better at rushing the passer helps to mitigate speed issues on the back end.  No time to throw=shorter passes

Yeah, the attention on Reader will only help Dunlap, Atkins, Hubbard, Lawson rushing.  The LB's are young but they'll be eased along.  We're still going to see a lot of 2 LB looks. 

Two misconceptions we have to be wary of either way.  Posting 40 times is great, but speed doesn't translate to good coverage or guarantee a big play doesn't happen.  Good speed can put you in the wrong place quicker, Jordan Evans overpersuing as an example. 

We also gotta be wary of terming DBs that play the run well like Waynes as a rum first DB.  He is grabby l, but not Toast Jones 2.0.  I also don't think we should use Bell and Williams traditional SS abilities as a weakness.  They'll be in there together at times in 5 and 6 DB looks, and even with all the yoing bodies at LB maybe some NLB. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-26-2020, 10:58 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Thinking more about this now that we have established it wasn't the speed. Perhaps it was the fact that we had to really focus the run to even stop it. The entire defense had to have its eyes in the backfield out of necessity. The Reader pickup + improved LB corp. will let them get back to focusing on coverage. Lovin it.

Exactly, you got to the concern that has been addressed.