Duke Tobin

[Okeana]

(04-26-2020, 06:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This guy has caught a ton of flack for some big misses over the last few years.. Whelp, draft day is his moment and it seems he and his staff have hit it out of the park.

As with any draft, some of these guys will falter, but let's give Duke some credit. They seem to have heard Zac's message and have 'Taylored' their approach to fit what he desires.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm glad we have stuck with Duke.

last year was duke's draft.  This year was Taylor.   It was his first full offseason with the team and you can see how much has changed.  Duke is worthless if a coach isn't carrying him.

[fredtoast]

(04-26-2020, 07:33 PM)Okeana Wrote: last year was duke's draft.  This year was Taylor.  

C'mon, guys.  None of us know how much influence anyone has in the draft.  I realize everyone has an opinion, but no one has any facts to base it on.  

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(04-26-2020, 06:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This guy has caught a ton of flack for some big misses over the last few years.. Whelp, draft day is his moment and it seems he and his staff have hit it out of the park.

As with any draft, some of these guys will falter, but let's give Duke some credit. They seem to have heard Zac's message and have 'Taylored' their approach to fit what he desires.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm glad we have stuck with Duke.

I'll stick my head above the parapet and say I don't believe it was a great draft from Tobin. I don't dislike this year's picks but his recent drafts (Price, Ogbuehi, Ross etc) have been so poor we had the considerable advantage of the first pick of each round and Burrow aside - who fell into his lap and was a no-brainer - I don't think he especially capitalized on it.

A great draft would have involved trading back on days 2 and 3 and still getting the same (or equivalent) players later on in the round and accumulating additional picks to plug other holes on the roster. A great draft would be drafting multiple players a round later than they should have gone. A great draft would have been moving on Dalton (and Eifert and Dalton really should have been dealt before the trade deadline last year). If we're talking great rather than merely adequate that's the type of thing that would have happened. Instead we pretty much drafted everyone the round they were slated to go when we had the first pick in every round. That's maybe value rather than great value. We've got better but every team gets better in the draft.


So I'd say that was closer to adequate than great. Burrow aside (and I don't credit Tobin with him) we didn't hit it out the park: we hit a single. That's still better than striking out and moves us forward by putting a man on base but he hasn't rounded home which would be completing the rebuild. Maybe Higgins or one of the linebackers will develop into a superstar and be a steal (and a steal would obviously move the runner into scoring position for next year's draft) but with our O-line I think we still have a way to go and will need a couple of hits in next year's draft to score.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-26-2020, 06:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This guy has caught a ton of flack for some big misses over the last few years.. Whelp, draft day is his moment and it seems he and his staff have hit it out of the park.

As with any draft, some of these guys will falter, but let's give Duke some credit. They seem to have heard Zac's message and have 'Taylored' their approach to fit what he desires.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm glad we have stuck with Duke.

Hard to disagree after this Offseason, I will roll with Duke. Great job this Offseason, great job.

Still think some of this has to do with him and Taylor working in unison.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-26-2020, 07:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: C'mon, guys.  None of us know how much influence anyone has in the draft.  I realize everyone has an opinion, but no one has any facts to base it on.  

Last years Draft and this one. Fact.

Last years Offseason and this one. Fact.

[impactplaya]

This draft feels like it has ZTs and Callahans Simmons
And Amarumo fingerprints all over it
The Bengals could have pulled this draft off the same
Exact picks minus Duke Tobin

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Never had a problem with Tobin. After years of ignoring Marvin's completely useless press conferences, I caught one with Tobin and it was like an awakening . . . "What sorcery is this? Informative talk from a person in the Bengals Front Office? This has to be a mind trick. I should click away but I'm going to give this another minute or two to see if he switches on us.". I've been biased ever since.

It's like Hopkins at Center . . . he's . . . OK . . . but in Bengals world, he doesn't suck so he's awesome because all we've seen at Center is different levels of suck since Braham went down in week two of 2006. Well, like Hopkins, Tobin may be only OK, but that's the best we're going to get with Mike Brown and in my opinion he's better than anyone that's been in that Front Office since Paul Brown died.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(04-26-2020, 08:21 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: I'll stick my head above the parapet and say I don't believe it was a great draft from Tobin. I don't dislike this year's picks but his recent drafts (Price, Ogbuehi, Ross etc) have been so poor we had the considerable advantage of the first pick of each round and Burrow aside - who fell into his lap and was a no-brainer - I don't think he especially capitalized on it.

A great draft would have involved trading back on days 2 and 3 and still getting the same (or equivalent) players later on in the round and accumulating additional picks to plug other holes on the roster. A great draft would be drafting multiple players a round later than they should have gone. A great draft would have been moving on Dalton (and Eifert and Dalton really should have been dealt before the trade deadline last year). If we're talking great rather than merely adequate that's the type of thing that would have happened. Instead we pretty much drafted everyone the round they were slated to go when we had the first pick in every round. That's maybe value rather than great value. We've got better but every team gets better in the draft.


So I'd say that was closer to adequate than great. Burrow aside (and I don't credit Tobin with him) we didn't hit it out the park: we hit a single. That's still better than striking out and moves us forward by putting a man on base but he hasn't rounded home which would be completing the rebuild. Maybe Higgins or one of the linebackers will develop into a superstar and be a steal (and a steal would obviously move the runner into scoring position for next year's draft) but with our O-line I think we still have a way to go and will need a couple of hits in next year's draft to score.

I’ll argue, but kudos for being different and not JPoore different.

Literally the only reach we had in this draft was Logan Wilson, and he was a polarizing prospect. Some had him as the 3rd best lb some had him a 4th round prospect. He was in the 110s in player rankings.

We will all keep track of Pittman and mims when comparing to Higgins. Mims was the only player who “slid” to the end of the second who has similar measurables, so trading down 10 picks or so may not have worked since the colts were staring Higgins down with the next pick and with colts fans as relatives I can tell you he would not have been there if we traded down.

Literally every player we picked was drafted at least 1 round later than they should have, and they help address a position they wanted to overhaul. The DE we took in the 5th is a power edge that will be a big contributor at stopping the run, and giving that position more youth was a good move.

Bailey was a 2nd round talent we got in the 7th because of injuries. If he can stay healthy we got a starter in the last round, and if he can’t stay reasonably healthy we aren’t out much.

I agree we should have moved Dalton for almost anything. The way this draft came out an extra 6th may have been real gold.

I worry about the o line too, but maybe adeniji works his way into a starting guard and Fred Johnson emerges. You can’t solve every problem in one offseason but they certainly overhauled the worst position group by far.

[bengals1969]

(04-26-2020, 08:52 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I’ll argue, but kudos for being different and not JPoore different.

Literally the only reach we had in this draft was Logan Wilson, and he was a polarizing prospect. Some had him as the 3rd best lb some had him a 4th round prospect. He was in the 110s in player rankings.

We will all keep track of Pittman and mims when comparing to Higgins. Mims was the only player who “slid” to the end of the second who has similar measurables, so trading down 10 picks or so may not have worked since the colts were staring Higgins down with the next pick and with colts fans as relatives I can tell you he would not have been there if we traded down.

Literally every player we picked was drafted at least 1 round later than they should have, and they help address a position they wanted to overhaul. The DE we took in the 5th is a power edge that will be a big contributor at stopping the run, and giving that position more youth was a good move.

Bailey was a 2nd round talent we got in the 7th because of injuries. If he can stay healthy we got a starter in the last round, and if he can’t stay reasonably healthy we aren’t out much.

I agree we should have moved Dalton for almost anything. The way this draft came out an extra 6th may have been real gold.

I worry about the o line too, but maybe adeniji works his way into a starting guard and Fred Johnson emerges. You can’t solve every problem in one offseason but they certainly overhauled the worst position group by far.

Appears to me the Bengals went into March with a single minded focus to overhaul the defense. Hats off to them for adopting the dictum Carpe Diem.
They had top 10 cap space.
They had top of round draft picks.

They took full advantage of their great good fortune.
Defense is wholly owned by ZT and front office because they got rid of so many starters.
You don’t see wholesale purges like this very often. Tobin and all the rest had to be on board for such a major change to a steady as she goes organization.

[TKUHL]

(04-26-2020, 06:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This guy has caught a ton of flack for some big misses over the last few years.. Whelp, draft day is his moment and it seems he and his staff have hit it out of the park.

As with any draft, some of these guys will falter, but let's give Duke some credit. They seem to have heard Zac's message and have 'Taylored' their approach to fit what he desires.
S
I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm glad we have stuck with Duke.

I get it but it’s way too soon. I liked the picks too but we thought the same after drafting OG and Fisher.

[BURROWorBUST]

Mike: 2-14 is pretty bad, isn't it?

Duke: Yes Sir. Worst in the NFL.

Mike: Why are we so bad?

Duke: Let me ask, Zac. Zac, why did we suck in 2019?

Zac: We've had the worst defense in the NFL for like the last 3 seasons.

Duke: What do we need to do to fix it?

Zac: Well, we've already done a personnel review and evaluation. We need to get alot more active in free agency and sign some quality veterans with playoff experience. Then we need to draft at least 2 more linebackers. We could actually use 3.

Duke: We can draft Chase Young, too.

Zac: No, sir. Our player evaluation told us that we need to move on from Andy, too. We need to draft Joe Burrow. And another wide receiver.

Duke: Mike's going to love taking Burrow. Do you have any idea what he'll do for season tickets and apparel sales? He'll finally be able to get a new Oldsmobile.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-26-2020, 06:41 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: I think Duke has done a shitty job the past 4 years in the draft. He's a dude who got a job because of his dad basically.

To criticize him for the last four years, you have to evaluate his impact since joining the Bengals.  He has been an executive with them since 1999 and had some outstanding drafts in there as well.  One of the biggest knocks recently was losing Whit and signing Ogbuehi and Fisher.  That, and drafting Ross while Mahommes was on the board.  

Ogbuehi and Fisher were good prospects, but didn't pan out.  That turned out to be a couple picks that they rode in to the ground and suffered mightily for it.  

I find it interesting that the Raiders took Henry Ruggs, the fastest WR in the draft that has no where near the production that Ross had in college.  He has really, really poor deep ball rankings (one of the worst, actually) but the Raiders said his speed will help open up their entire offense.  Sounds a bit like how the Bengals view Ross....but, hey, it is the Raiders, so they are immune to criticism since they have former media guys Mayock and Gruden.  It will be interesting to see how Ruggs produces relative to Jeudy (who I think is amazing), Lamb (ditto), Jefferson, and Reagor.  You never know if a trade back was available to them, but wow...with all those WRs still on the board at #12.  

Back to Tobin:  He will be measured by his drafts from last year and this year for some time.  If Williams does what he thinks we can do, and Sample contributes as both a blocker and receiver, last year's draft instantly becomes a lot more credible.  They already have their starting LG from the 4th round of last year.  That being said, I will always hate the Finley pick.

This year's draft could be huge.  Of course, there is the QB for the next decade and beyond.  The AJ Green-lite in Higgins.  Three, count them....THREE LBs that should be able to contribute right away.  Then, depth plays at DE and G/OT.  

The other thing that is often overlooked is their success in UDFAs.  

[Daddy-O]

(04-26-2020, 08:21 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I'll stick my head above the parapet and say I don't believe it was a great draft from Tobin. I don't dislike this year's picks but his recent drafts (Price, Ogbuehi, Ross etc) have been so poor we had the considerable advantage of the first pick of each round and Burrow aside - who fell into his lap and was a no-brainer - I don't think he especially capitalized on it.

A great draft would have involved trading back on days 2 and 3 and still getting the same (or equivalent) players later on in the round and accumulating additional picks to plug other holes on the roster. A great draft would be drafting multiple players a round later than they should have gone. A great draft would have been moving on Dalton (and Eifert and Dalton really should have been dealt before the trade deadline last year). If we're talking great rather than merely adequate that's the type of thing that would have happened. Instead we pretty much drafted everyone the round they were slated to go when we had the first pick in every round. That's maybe value rather than great value. We've got better but every team gets better in the draft.


So I'd say that was closer to adequate than great. Burrow aside (and I don't credit Tobin with him) we didn't hit it out the park: we hit a single. That's still better than striking out and moves us forward by putting a man on base but he hasn't rounded home which would be completing the rebuild. Maybe Higgins or one of the linebackers will develop into a superstar and be a steal (and a steal would obviously move the runner into scoring position for next year's draft) but with our O-line I think we still have a way to go and will need a couple of hits in next year's draft to score.

You make the assumption that we had the opportunity to move back and pick up more picks.  It takes 2 teams to do that and the value proposed was likely not worth staying put.  Hindsight is always 20/20.  I'd much prefer to stand pat and grab somebody above their draft grade than to pick up and extra late round pick and possibly miss on 2 guys that don't fit your scheme.

[TecmoBengals]

I think it comes down to the next 3 seasons. How do Duke and Zac do? Do they win and make the playoffs? If yes, that answers this thread.

[fredtoast]

(04-26-2020, 08:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Last years Draft and this one. Fact.

Last years Offseason and this one. Fact.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(04-26-2020, 08:52 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I’ll argue, but kudos for being different and not JPoore different.

Literally the only reach we had in this draft was Logan Wilson, and he was a polarizing prospect. Some had him as the 3rd best lb some had him a 4th round prospect. He was in the 110s in player rankings.

We will all keep  track of Pittman and mims when comparing to Higgins. Mims was the only player who “slid” to the end of the second who has similar measurables, so trading down 10 picks or so may not have worked since the colts were staring Higgins down with the next pick and with colts fans as relatives I can tell you he would not have been there if we traded down.

Literally every player we picked was drafted at least 1 round later than they should have, and they help address a position they wanted to overhaul. The DE we took in the 5th is a power edge that will be a big contributor at stopping the run, and giving that position more youth was a good move.

Bailey was  a 2nd round talent we got in the 7th because of injuries. If he can stay healthy we got a starter in the last round, and if he can’t stay reasonably healthy we aren’t out much.

I agree we should have moved Dalton for almost anything. The way this draft came out an extra 6th may have been real gold.

I worry about the o line too, but maybe adeniji works his way into a starting guard and Fred Johnson emerges. You can’t solve every problem in one offseason but they certainly overhauled the worst position group by far.

I don't consider Wilson to be a reach. Maybe he was more mid-third round but he was in that tier. I like the Bailey pick but he went bang slap where all the boards expected him to be. And that's basically how I view the entire draft after Burrow. They didn't reach, but they didn't get great value either compared to where players were slated to go and they didn't create extra value by moving around the draft board.

I think we could have got either that player or a similarly ranked player in that position had we traded back in most rounds (Round 2 Mims; Round 3 /4 Malik Harrison, Troy Dye; Round 5 Bradley Anae, Round 6 Prince Tego Wanaho). But I'm not saying this is a bad draft, only raising the bar as to what a great draft is like.

Adeniji may work his way into a starting guard but it certainly won't be this season. Let's hope Burrow isn't seeing ghosts by the time he does.

[Devils Advocate]

(04-26-2020, 06:41 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: I think Duke has done a shitty job the past 4 years in the draft. He's a dude who got a job because of his dad basically.

It’s not like he’s incompetent. So this statement isn’t entirely true.

[sandwedge]

It sounds to me like some people think Tobin sets in a room all by himself just drafting players.. His job is to listen to coaches and get the players they are asking for. To me, this staff all seems to be on the same page and work well with each other. Whether or not that happened in the past, I don't know.

[TheUberHuber]

Saying you are glad we have stuck with Duke tobin is like saying the clock isn't broken because it is right twice a day.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-27-2020, 11:45 AM)sandwedge Wrote: It sounds to me like some people think Tobin sets in a room all by himself just drafting players.. His job is to listen to coaches and get the players they are asking for. To me, this staff all seems to be on the same page and work well with each other. Whether or not that happened in the past, I don't know.

Yep exactly. From what I understand Duke and his staff's purpose is to bring information to the coaches so that they can make executive decisions about the roster. He isn't calling the shots at the end of the day, just providing the information to make the best choices.


Historically, the Bengals have been unwilling to spend in free agency.. is that Dukes fault? I wouldn't think so.

Additionally, he is going to follow the orders of the coaching staff. If they are looking for type A trait, he will find players with type A trait. He needs to be guided by the coaches on what they are looking for to fit their schemes and plans for the franchise. PA pounded the table for Obguehi, so again, is that Dukes fault? I wouldn't think so.

Duke can only lead a horse to water is how I see it lol