Duke Tobin

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-27-2020, 09:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote:

I know you still don't get that Zac didn't have an entire Offseason last year so its all good.

We all have the right to be a little slow in the head.

Everyone that follows this team should see the difference from last years Draft and this one.

The entire Bengals team was not nearly as prepared as this year.

We haven't had a Free Agency like this Offseason in my lifetime that I can remember.

[fredtoast]

(04-27-2020, 04:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I know you still don't get that Zac didn't have an entire Offseason last year so its all good.

We all have the right to be a little slow in the head.

I know Zac was hired Feb 3 last year and had plenty of time to prepare for the draft.  Every other team that hires a new coach talks about how that coach shapes the team with his first draft, but I guess Zac just sat around and played video games.

If Zac could not get ready for last years draft then he is not competent to be an NFL head coach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-27-2020, 05:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know Zac was hired Feb 3 last year and had plenty of time to prepare for the draft.  Every other team that hires a new coach talks about how that coach shapes the team with his first draft, but I guess Zac just sat around and played video games.

If Zac could not get ready for last years draft then he is not competent to be an NFL head coach.

BTW do you think we all have the right be insulting assholes to each other around here?

He was coaching in the Superbowl, had tons of stuff on his mind.

You should give him a little break for last year with all the injuries and such a short Offseason.

Then I wouldn't give you no crap. You give excuses for Marvin Lewis all the time, why never for Zac Taylor?

[fredtoast]

(04-27-2020, 05:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He was coaching in the Superbowl, had tons of stuff on his mind.

You should give him a little break for last year with all the injuries and such a short Offseason.

Then I wouldn't give you no crap. You give excuses for Marvin Lewis all the time, why never for Zac Taylor?

I just find it comical that a guy like you with a full time job doing somethiung else and no one else to assist you was better able to prepare for the 2019 draft than an NFL head coach with a large staff working full time to assist him.

The truth is we have no idea if this years draft will be any better than last years (other than Burrow who anyone with a pulse could have identified as the #1 pick).

And we definitely don't know if Tobin was pickinmg last year and Zac this year.  Maybe Zac was in charge of the draft last year and he screwed the pooch so bad they took the power away from him.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-27-2020, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And we definitely don't know if Tobin was pickinmg last year and Zac this year.  Maybe Zac was in charge of the draft last year and he screwed the pooch so bad they took the power away from him.

You're right, we don't know any of that.  What we do know is that Zac was a late hire, thus they were really late in getting the staff assembled.  I thought that I remembered reading somewhere that at the combine was the first time some of the coaches had gotten together.

[J24]

It's too early to judge the 2019 draft.
1.) Williams got hurt
2.)Sample got hurt- plus he actually fits what Zack wants in a TE.
3.) Pratt was actually a good player in the second half of last season
4.) Finley was bad but it's a bit of miss league at QB, Jordans and Wren were projects and neither were expected to play.
5.) No pick
6th.) Didn't make the roster
7th.) Anderson again got hurt but looked good in preseason.

As for Taylor deserving a break for last season I think it's a yes and no answer.
1.) He was Dukes Guy and he knew he was the Head coach by mid January. The he didn't have enough time to prepare is nonsense.
2.) He had bad breaks with injury losing his top 3 lineman + star WR hurts. Again that's going to affect a team no matter how you slice it.
3.) I thought the Bengals drafted a lot of guys that fit what Zac wanted in a player. Unfortunately the top 2 picks got hurt & they should of played Pratt earlier.
4.) I'm going to get heat for saying this but they were quite frankly un lucky in a couple of games last season. Seattle we outplayed them, Buffalo BS holding call cost us a TD which changes the game, Jags Game Webb drops two pick sixes, Raiders + Steelers we win if Andy plays, and the @ Browns game again we out played them.
5.) The team was playing hard + doing good things to finish the season. Mixon and the running game got going + the defense finished out well. I thought the Coaching staff kept the moral of the team strong when they were playing for nothing.

[fredtoast]

(04-27-2020, 06:07 PM)J24 Wrote: It's too early to judge the 2019 draft.
1.) Williams got hurt
2.)Sample got hurt- plus he actually fits what Zack wants in a TE.
3.) Pratt was actually a good player in the second half of last season
4.) Finley was bad but it's a bit of miss league at QB, Jordans and Wren were projects and neither were expected to play.
5.) No pick
6th.) Didn't make the roster
7th.) Anderson again got hurt but looked good in preseason.

As for Taylor deserving a break for last season I think it's a yes and no answer.
1.) He was Dukes Guy and he knew he was the Head coach by mid January. The he didn't have enough time to prepare is nonsense.
2.) He had bad breaks with injury losing his top 3 lineman + star WR hurts. Again that's going to affect a team no matter how you slice it.
3.) I thought the Bengals drafted a lot of guys that fit what Zac wanted in a player.  Unfortunately the top 2 picks got hurt & they should of played Pratt earlier.
4.) I'm going to get heat for saying this but they were quite frankly un lucky in a couple of games last season. Seattle we outplayed them,  Buffalo BS holding call cost us a TD which changes the game, Jags Game Webb drops two pick sixes, Raiders + Steelers we win if Andy plays, and the @ Browns game again we out played them.
5.) The team was playing hard + doing good things to finish the season. Mixon and the running game got going + the defense finished out well.  I thought the Coaching staff kept the moral of the team strong when they were playing for nothing.

Zac had brutal bad luck in losing Williams, Boling, and Green before trainingcamp even started.  In 2018 Andre Smith was worse than Bobby Hart, yet opening day 2019 he was our starting LT.  Our offense never had a chance due to lack of talent but poor coaching made it worse (see: run game first 8 games)

Our defense seemed to have more talent, but they just played really bad and underachieved.  Guys that I have seen play well in the past looked like crap.

It is too early to really judge our draft from last year, but for some reason (I still don't know who to blame) our free agent signings last year were bad even by Bengal standards (and that is saying a lot).

This year looks A LOT better so far, but I am still concerned about the coaching.

[J24]

(04-27-2020, 07:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zac had brutal bad luck in losing Williams, Boling, and Green before trainingcamp even started.  In 2018 Andre Smith was worse than Bobby Hart, yet opening day 2019 he was our starting LT.  Our offense never had a chance due to lack of talent but poor coaching made it worse (see: run game first 8 games)

Our defense seemed to have more talent, but they just played really bad and underachieved.  Guys that I have seen play well in the past looked like crap.

It is too early to really judge our draft from last year, but for some reason (I still don't know who to blame) our free agent signings last year were bad even by Bengal standards (and that is saying a lot).

This year looks A LOT better so far, but I am still concerned about the coaching.

Plus Glenn was out for what 10 or 11 games as well. That's a 3 out of the 5 starters on the Offensive line.
Defense started the year with an unbelievable performance against Seattle and then completely shit the bed weeks 2-10. Then they finished the season playing solid to good defense. I have a lot of hope for the unit though but we'll see.

As for free agency last year yeah it was bad. I thought Duke was over confident in Hart and Brown. Those Two signings are still head scratchers to me. 

Free Agency this season I thought it was ok but not as great as everyone makes it out to be. It was nice to see them be active for a change.
Kirkpatrick, Dennard, Williams vs Wayne's, Alexander, and Bell is a push.
Reader is an improvement over Billings but Billings wasn't a scrub either at the same time.
Bynes is the typical run stuffing LB that they sign every single off season.
Miller vs Fulia is also a push.
Other than Reader I didn't see an impact player from that list but I didn't see a scrub either.

[Bengal Dude]

Our drafts were pretty much iffy from 2014-2018. I believe that had to do with Duke and Marvin butting heads over picks, which came to light in 2017 with John Ross. Duke basically has his own HC with Zac so both can work together. I imagine conflicts between the two will be minimal as long as they work together. 

[BengalsBong]

Uncle Fester....lol.... We did have a good draft so far on paper but we need to see these guys play on the field. But as far as the eye test goes yes props to Fester. Marvin damn sure could not pick decent LB which baffles me yes he would hit one now and then. But they seemed to have issues and the last few damn they was just so far off. I heard comments about BB tearing down the Pats before he goes I thought Marvin was doing the same here the last few drafts he was in control of.

[WeezyBengal]

(04-26-2020, 06:23 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: This guy has caught a ton of flack for some big misses over the last few years.. Whelp, draft day is his moment and it seems he and his staff have hit it out of the park.

As with any draft, some of these guys will falter, but let's give Duke some credit. They seem to have heard Zac's message and have 'Taylored' their approach to fit what he desires.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm glad we have stuck with Duke.

How about we give it a couple years to actually see how this draft pans out rather than promote Duke. 

[WeezyBengal]

(04-26-2020, 07:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: C'mon, guys.  None of us know how much influence anyone has in the draft.  I realize everyone has an opinion, but no one has any facts to base it on.  

Exactly. No one here has any clue what they are talking about. Especially the OP. 

[fredtoast]

(04-27-2020, 09:23 PM) pid=\865147' Wrote:Other than Reader I didn't see an impact player from that list but I didn't see a scrub either.

I see Bell as a big upgrade because I think we will see Williams and Bell on the field at the same time.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-28-2020, 09:50 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Exactly. No one here has any clue what they are talking about. Especially the OP. 

Thanks for the kind words. Please enlighten us with your extensive knowledge since you apparently know something I don't.

FWIW I agree with you that time is needed to evaluate this class. That is why my original post said it seems that they have hit it out of the park and that some of these draft picks will falter. The point of this thread was that at face value, they have figured it out. No Drew Samples this year.

I should have learned my lesson by now, you can't be positive around here. I'll hold off on posting anymore optimistic threads until we have won at least 2 Super Bowls.

[Bengalitis]

When we were 2-14, and with the poor signings last year and horrible picks last draft, he deserves the brunt of the brunts.

This season thanks to the pending re-signings we have, a departing 9 yr? QB, and horrible spots (LBs), have made it into one of the easiest drafts to not mess up, not to mention one of the most 2nd round talent draft in yrs.

The last time such a move like this happened was when we got Carson.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-26-2020, 07:17 PM)J24 Wrote: I would actually say Duke has always been good at Drafting.
2016- Jackson, Boyd,
2017- Mixon,  Lawson
2018- Bates, Hubbard
Those are six Pro bowl Caliber players right there all on our roster now. The problem he has had is with free agency but he was pretty active this off-season.  While I think his signings other than Reader were just Ok and I still would have liked them to sign an OT. It was nice to see this team be aggressive.

Those are 6 good/okay/disappointing-high-potential players who have been to 0 Pro Bowls and have made 0 All-Pro lists.

Tobin has drafted 1 Pro Bowler in the last 8 years and that was Eifert, who honestly as a 1st round pick was a bust that had 1 good year.  (Nobody drafts 1st round TEs to average 307 yards per season.)

Any other organization and Tobin would have been fired with his drafting record over the previous 8 drafts.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-28-2020, 11:54 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Those are 6 good/okay/disappointing-high-potential players who have been to 0 Pro Bowls and have made 0 All-Pro lists.

Tobin has drafted 1 Pro Bowler in the last 8 years and that was Eifert, who honestly as a 1st round pick was a bust that had 1 good year.  (Nobody drafts 1st round TEs to average 307 yards per season.)

Any other organization and Tobin would have been fired with his drafting record over the previous 8 drafts.

If this is how you feel, then you must think Marvin Lewis was the bestest coach ever right? He apparently made chicken soup from Duke's chicken shit is what you are getting at.

FWIW if Zac leads us to something like 3-13 this year, maybe Marvin really was a prodigy coach lol

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-28-2020, 12:01 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: If this is how you feel, then you must think Marvin Lewis was the bestest coach ever right? He apparently made chicken soup from Duke's chicken shit is what you are getting at.

FWIW if Zac leads us to something like 3-13 this year, maybe Marvin really was a prodigy coach lol

Except Marvin's teams were still chicken shit when it came time for Duke's chicken shit drafts to play. They caught up to the team. Poor drafting doesn't hurt you immediately, but poor drafting from a year or a couple years prior is when it hurts you.

The Bengals had to start replacing players drafted from 2009-2012 like Andre Smith, Jermaine Gresham, Michael Johnson, Clint Boling, Kevin Zeitler, Mohamed Sanu, Marvin Jones, George Iloka.... and they couldn't do it because of Duke's bad drafting. That's why Marvin finished his NFL career with 6, 7, and 6 win seasons. That and because Zimmer left.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-28-2020, 12:09 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except Marvin's teams were still chicken shit when it came time for Duke's chicken shit drafts to play. They caught up to the team. Poor drafting doesn't hurt you immediately, but poor drafting from a year or a couple years prior is when it hurts you.

The Bengals had to start replacing players drafted from 2009-2012 like Andre Smith, Jermaine Gresham, Michael Johnson, Clint Boling, Kevin Zeitler, Mohamed Sanu, Marvin Jones, George Iloka.... and they couldn't do it because of Duke's bad drafting. That's why Marvin finished his NFL career with 6, 7, and 6 win seasons. That and because Zimmer left.

If i'm not mistaken, Duke has been working with the Bengals since 1999. I'm not entirely sure when he became the head honcho. Aren't all of those players you just mentioned that needed to be replaced ALSO tied to Duke Tobin?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-28-2020, 11:54 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Those are 6 good/okay/disappointing-high-potential players who have been to 0 Pro Bowls and have made 0 All-Pro lists.

Tobin has drafted 1 Pro Bowler in the last 8 years and that was Eifert, who honestly as a 1st round pick was a bust that had 1 good year.  (Nobody drafts 1st round TEs to average 307 yards per season.)

Any other organization and Tobin would have been fired with his drafting record over the previous 8 drafts.

(04-28-2020, 12:19 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: If i'm not mistaken, Duke has been working with the Bengals since 1999. I'm not entirely sure when he became the head honcho. Aren't all of those players you just mentioned that needed to be replaced ALSO tied to Duke Tobin?

And yet the post that you quoted and replied to specifically mentioned the last 8 years not once but twice. Never said that Tobin has never had good drafts before, but he's creeping towards nearly a decade long streak of shitty results now.

Me: The last 8 years have been shit.
You: That's not true, because 9-12 years ago was not shit.
Me: