Bob McGinn evaluations of our drafted players

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-30-2020, 09:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Regarding Logan Wilson's numbers:

52 games, finishing with 421 tackles (35 for loss), seven sacks, 10 interceptions and 24 passes defensed.

Those are some silly numbers.  When you consider how he played WR and CB in high school, it starts to make a little sense.  Not that he didn't test well at the combine (he did), but the Bengals have so many times gone with the superior athlete that looks absolutely lost on the field when asked to diagnose.  He almost seems like an anti-Bengal choice at LB.  Of all the picks outside of Burrow, he excites me the most.  I think that guy will get on the field and never come off.  He will be the every-down LB that the Bengals have needed for some time.

Wouldn't it be great to have a kick ass and take names set of LBers taking the field ? We've been so bad at LB for so long ! Burfict had a couple good seasons but other than that success has been sporadic.

I'm so hoping this new group gives us something to cheer about.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-30-2020, 09:59 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Wouldn't it be great to have a kick ass and take names set of LBers taking the field ? We've been so bad at LB for so long ! Burfict had a couple good seasons but other than that success has been sporadic.

I'm so hoping this new group gives us something to cheer about.

Yep. Our LB group has been in even worse shape than the OL for years now. At least the OL had Whit, Zeitler, and Boling. Outside of Burfict who was the last really good LB we had...

I’m excited about these guys.

[CJD]

(04-30-2020, 09:04 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: When I was talking myself out of him before the draft, I was using the physicality of Okudah punishing him off the LOS at Ohio State.  That, his forty time, and his lack of an even decent vertical.  

When I started talking myself in to him was when I realized he had been in the National Championship game against Alabama, and won in 2018.  He had 3 receptions for 81 yards and a TD as a true Sophomore.  That is the other thing:  He is just 21 years old.  What you said about his back shoulder ability is my final thought as well:  He tracks the deep ball as well as anyone I have ever seen.  That isn't as easy as it sounds.  Someone with a bouncy gait, whether fast or not, has trouble focusing on the ball as their eyes are bounding up and down as it approaches.  Higgins may not be a burner, but he is smooth and he has sure hands.  

I think if Higgins had not been in the Championship game the past two seasons, or the playoff for that matter, he could have had time to rest, heal, train, and have a much better combine/pro day.  

When I think of what he can do here, I think a lot of AJ drawing safeties to his side of the field and Higgins having a lot of big plays down the field.  Contested or not, I think there aren't many CBs that are going to beat him on balls in the air.  

And, he is a Bengals fan.  

Yea, I mean he had a good game against Alabama in 2018. It wasn't dominating, but getting a 3 catches for 81 yards and a touchdown off of that defense is impressive in its own right. The touchdown grab was really good extension too, although I'm not thrilled that he dropped it when he hit the ground. I'm not 100% sure that is considered a touchdown in the NFL (The Calvin Johnson rule may have something to say about it).

He had a fairly good game against LSU in January as well with 3 catches for 52 yards and that beautiful 36 yard touchdown run that really exemplified his ability to break tackles and outrun legitimate speed players like Grant Delpit (4.39 40) to the sideline.
And that's with a 48 yard touchdown being called back on a super duper sketchy OPI call
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92JdKqmhe2k

All told, he could (and probably should) have accounted for 7 catches, 181 yards, 2 touchdowns and a 36 yard touchdown run in two national championship games. And that's as the team's #2 WR haha.

I didn't watch the Clemson vs Ohio state game, but I did find the all 22 footage of each of Higgins' targets and I don't think you can really blame Higgins for some of these poor throws from Lawrence. Take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRUglfVNtB8

0:07, that's a lot of separation vs Okudah. Nearly 2 yards.
0:35, He comes down with the ball vs Okudah, but it's too far outside. No one would be able to catch that pass in bounds. A better thrown ball may be a big gain, but the target area may have just been too small to realistically keep this pass in bounds.
1:11, you'd prefer he get more separation from Arnette here, but that's "NFL Open." Arnette is also clearly holding him by the collar at the top of his route, and it looks like it was flagged (not certain if it was or not, but there's flags on the field)
1:20, Lawrence just gives Higgins a chance on a 50-50 ball and it just doesn't happen for him. He kind of got tangled up with Okudah there. Good play on Okudah's part.
1:44, this is a bad pass. Higgins ran Okudah off with ease and Lawrence throws off target. Higgins probably should catch this though, as he got his hands on it.
2:09, a good little quick out that Higgins takes for the first down through 3 OSU defenders.
2:31, a little bubble screen type play. Higgins shows a little wiggle but, ultimately, I don't think he's quick enough to make these plays work in the NFL.
2:53, a disaster of a screen. OSU obviously sniffed this one out.
3:31, another play where Higgins gets "NFL Open" vs Okudah. But Lawrence was rushed (by Young) and threw it a yard or 2 behind Higgins. He slows to adjust to it and Okudah swamps him. A properly led ball is a completion here. Also...Okudah held his jersey in this play. Should have been called.
3:40, A really good scramble drill where Higgins breaks away from Okudah and makes a great catch for the two point conversion. Really good play from Lawrence and Higgins.

There were definitely some poor throws from Lawrence in that game. Looking at the passes at 1:11, 1:44 and 3:31, that's at least 30 yards that Lawrence left on the field.

Now, maybe on the plays in which Higgins was not targeted he was getting blown up by Okudah, I dunno. But I wasn't too worried about his ability to separate watching these snaps in particular.

Also, didn't he leave the game after the hit he took due to that toss up at 0:35? It's good that he came back in for the 2nd half, but that probably had some impact on him as well.

As far as Higgins' vertical jump of 31 inches, I care more about what I see on tape than in a gym. And, on tape, Higgins can definitely get vertical. It's also worth noting A.J. Green only had a 34.5 inch vertical and he has had a pretty good career .

I'm concerned about Higgins' testing overall, as you seem to be, but when I put on the video of his snaps, he performs much better than those numbers seem to indicate.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-30-2020, 11:06 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Yea, I mean he had a good game against Alabama in 2018. It wasn't dominating, but getting a 3 catches for 81 yards and a touchdown off of that defense is impressive in its own right. The touchdown grab was really good extension too, although I'm not thrilled that he dropped it when he hit the ground. I'm not 100% sure that is considered a touchdown in the NFL (The Calvin Johnson rule may have something to say about it).

He had a fairly good game against LSU in January as well with 3 catches for 52 yards and that beautiful 36 yard touchdown run that really exemplified his ability to break tackles and outrun legitimate speed players like Grant Delpit (4.39 40) to the sideline.
And that's with a 48 yard touchdown being called back on a super duper sketchy OPI call
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92JdKqmhe2k

All told, he could (and probably should) have accounted for 7 catches, 181 yards, 2 touchdowns and a 36 yard touchdown run in two national championship games. And that's as the team's #2 WR haha.

I didn't watch the Clemson vs Ohio state game, but I did find the all 22 footage of each of Higgins' targets and I don't think you can really blame Higgins for some of these poor throws from Lawrence. Take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRUglfVNtB8

0:07, that's a lot of separation vs Okudah. Nearly 2 yards.
0:35, He comes down with the ball vs Okudah, but it's too far outside. No one would be able to catch that pass in bounds. A better thrown ball may be a big gain, but the target area may have just been too small to realistically keep this pass in bounds.
1:11, you'd prefer he get more separation from Arnette here, but that's "NFL Open." Arnette is also clearly holding him by the collar at the top of his route, and it looks like it was flagged (not certain if it was or not, but there's flags on the field)
1:20, Lawrence just gives Higgins a chance on a 50-50 ball and it just doesn't happen for him. He kind of got tangled up with Okudah there. Good play on Okudah's part.
1:44, this is a bad pass. Higgins ran Okudah off with ease and Lawrence throws off target. Higgins probably should catch this though, as he got his hands on it.
2:09, a good little quick out that Higgins takes for the first down through 3 OSU defenders.
2:31, a little bubble screen type play. Higgins shows a little wiggle but, ultimately, I don't think he's quick enough to make these plays work in the NFL.
2:53, a disaster of a screen. OSU obviously sniffed this one out.
3:31, another play where Higgins gets "NFL Open" vs Okudah. But Lawrence was rushed (by Young) and threw it a yard or 2 behind Higgins. He slows to adjust to it and Okudah swamps him. A properly led ball is a completion here. Also...Okudah held his jersey in this play. Should have been called.
3:40, A really good scramble drill where Higgins breaks away from Okudah and makes a great catch for the two point conversion. Really good play from Lawrence and Higgins.

There were definitely some poor throws from Lawrence in that game. Looking at the passes at 1:11, 1:44 and 3:31, that's at least 30 yards that Lawrence left on the field.

Now, maybe on the plays in which Higgins was not targeted he was getting blown up by Okudah, I dunno. But I wasn't too worried about his ability to separate watching these snaps in particular.

Also, didn't he leave the game after the hit he took due to that toss up at 0:35? It's good that he came back in for the 2nd half, but that probably had some impact on him as well.

As far as Higgins' vertical jump of 31 inches, I care more about what I see on tape than in a gym. And, on tape, Higgins can definitely get vertical. It's also worth noting A.J. Green only had a 34.5 inch vertical and he has had a pretty good career .

I'm concerned about Higgins' testing overall, as you seem to be, but when I put on the video of his snaps, he performs much better than those numbers seem to indicate.

Outstanding breakdown, man.  Thank you for taking all the time!  You might want to just cut and paste all you did in to another thread.  I am sure everyone would like to see that. 

Major Rep+

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-30-2020, 09:59 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Wouldn't it be great to have a kick ass and take names set of LBers taking the field ? We've been so bad at LB for so long ! Burfict had a couple good seasons but other than that success has been sporadic.

I'm so hoping this new group gives us something to cheer about.

Someone will probably be able to contradict this statement, but I can't remember the last time the Bengals had a "really good" defense when Burfict wasn't on the field.  He made that much of a difference (of course, when he was playing and not suspended.  Better tackling on the edges, better coverage by LBs, better run defense in the middle with Reader....

There are a lot of reasons to see how this defense could take a major step forward this year.  That, and a more reliable offense.  

[CJD]

(04-30-2020, 03:54 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Outstanding breakdown, man.  Thank you for taking all the time!  You might want to just cut and paste all you did in to another thread.  I am sure everyone would like to see that. 

Major Rep+

At this point, I was as well accept my role as Tee Higgins' number 1 hype man hahaha.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Very nice read CJD. What stood out the most to me was the conflicting opinions with these scouts.

Kind of hard to take anything from them when it is like this, one is a homer, one is a hater.

Who could not like Burrow after what he did last season, who was that 5th scout? Has to be a Bama or Clemson fan.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-30-2020, 05:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Very nice read CJD. What stood out the most to me was the conflicting opinions with these scouts.

Kind of hard to take anything from them when it is like this, one is a homer, one is a hater.

Who could not like Burrow after what he did last season, who was that 5th scout? Has to be a Bama or Clemson fan.

But he has small hands!!!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-30-2020, 06:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But he has small hands!!!

Lol, they even tried to use that as a weakness with Tee even though he just might have the best hands of this entire draft class.

I think if I was a scout I would be looking at more of you know, what they did on the field...

[JerseyDD09]

(04-29-2020, 11:45 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Great post very interesting to read about scouts with such varying opinions. As far as Higgins goes I never saw him being brought in as a speed guy but more as an A.J. Green replacement/ clone not saying he would be as good.  Boyd dosen't have great speed he's more of slot possession guy who runs great routes and has great hands, he reminds me of a slimmer Keenan Allen.  Don't kill me lol but I still haven't given up on John Ross just yet even tho he frustrates me. If Green dosen't get extend after this year going forward we would have Boyd, Higgins and guys like Tate and Erickson and would be lacking a speed WR over the top. Ross has flashed some big plays when he's healthy like the Seattle game and others. I wouldn't mind picking up his fifth year option if he played well in 2020 and see if he had a future here or to maybe get signed to a reasonable contract with , Higgns playing on a rookie deal and with Boyd on a good contract.

Don't worry about our lack of WRs for next year. The Bengals will make sure to get JaMar Chase in the Top 5 to go with his buddy Burrow!!

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Small hands is usually attributed to fumbling more than normal, it has almost nothing to do with catching ability. If you have the touch, the ability to deaden a ball, you can catch.

I've seen plenty of big receivers with stone hands.

[Tomkat]

You can build arm-strength, but you can't teach intelligence.

[JSR18]

(04-30-2020, 08:12 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: Don't worry about our lack of WRs for next year. The Bengals will make sure to get JaMar Chase in the Top 5 to go with his buddy Burrow!! [emoji106]

Wouldn't mind getting Chase next year, but I sure hope we aren't picking in the top 5 to do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CJD]

(04-30-2020, 09:51 PM)JSR18 Wrote: Wouldn't mind getting Chase next year, but I sure hope we aren't picking in the top 5 to do it!!!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

If we're picking top 5 next year, it will almost certainly be because of our Oline. In that case, I'd really want to address that often and early.  Maybe in a similar manner that we addressed LB in this past draft haha, but with even higher picks.

[JSR18]

(04-30-2020, 09:52 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If we're picking top 5 next year, it will almost certainly be because of our Oline. In that case, I'd really want to address that often and early.  Maybe in a similar manner that we addressed LB in this past draft haha, but with even higher picks.

Agree 100%.    Let me re-iterate though, I really, really, really don't want to draft in the top 5 next year...

[samhain]

(04-30-2020, 09:52 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If we're picking top 5 next year, it will almost certainly be because of our Oline. In that case, I'd really want to address that often and early.  Maybe in a similar manner that we addressed LB in this past draft haha, but with even higher picks.

You're probably right, but corner and pass rusher are also areas that will probably become needs sooner than some expect.  Jackson and Alexander are only locked up for this year.  Dunlap is getting older, and although his play is still at a high level, they'll need to figure out some way to replace his production sooner than later.  Lawson is another with only a year left.  That basically leaves Hubbard, and I envision almost no scenario where they let him get away, and Kareem.  

I'm all for building the line in front of the new quarterback.  I wouldn't bet on it happening, but I hope the guys they have are as good as they seem to think they are.  If that's the case, then they can look at a first round corner or pass rusher to be here for the long haul.

[TSwigZ]

What was the name of the former Bengals Punter/WR who scored the only perfect wonderlic score?

Edit: had to google it but Pat McINally scores a 50 and he said it was easy he didn’t really think to much bc he didn’t think it mattered. Dude was an all pro/pro bowler in 1981 and played some WR for us.

Could you imaging Kevin Huber lining up as a WR? Lmao

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-30-2020, 06:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But he has small hands!!!

He is in good company:

Tom Brady: 9.3
Patrick Mahommes 9.2
Jard Goff 9

Joe Burrow 9

I know you were just making fun of it, but I think God had to let Baker Mayfield beat Burrow in at least one catagory:  9.5"

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2020, 02:36 AM)samhain Wrote: You're probably right, but corner and pass rusher are also areas that will probably become needs sooner than some expect.  Jackson and Alexander are only locked up for this year.  Dunlap is getting older, and although his play is still at a high level, they'll need to figure out some way to replace his production sooner than later.  Lawson is another with only a year left.  That basically leaves Hubbard, and I envision almost no scenario where they let him get away, and Kareem.  

I'm all for building the line in front of the new quarterback.  I wouldn't bet on it happening, but I hope the guys they have are as good as they seem to think they are.  If that's the case, then they can look at a first round corner or pass rusher to be here for the long haul.

With you 100%.  Going in to next year, they will have at least one of Ross/Green extended.  The CB position will probably be the greatest need, but hopefully WJIII gets extended after playing a great season and they try to extend Alexander.  Maybe the kid from Dartmouth shows or maybe Phillips wrestles away the outside job? 

Hoping that the scheme, the mobility of Burrow, and the improvements at RT and RG end up stabilizing the offensive line, you can never have too much depth in the trenches.  Defensive end/EDGE will certainly be looked at very closely.  

With Burrow on a rookie deal, there will also be the possibility of other FAs.  

My only knock on the draft this year was wishing for a do-all safety like Dugger....of course, he went to the Pats.  I haven't even looked, but hopefully that position group is loaded next year.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2020, 04:28 AM)TSwigZ Wrote: What was the name of the former Bengals Punter/WR who scored the only perfect wonderlic score?

Edit: had to google it but Pat McINally scores a 50 and he said it was easy he didn’t really think to much bc he didn’t think it mattered. Dude was an all pro/pro bowler in 1981 and played some WR for us.

Could you imaging Kevin Huber lining up as a WR? Lmao

I remember McInally well.  He was a heck of a punter and played WR more like a TE.   And he was probably just being smug about the Wunderlich...dude went to Harvard.  

Interestingly, he is married to a woman named Leslie Bevis.  She is an actress and was the woman that "called" President Skroob in "Spaceballs" when he was taking a piss...