Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 12:44 PM)McC Wrote: None of them were drafted until the third round.  Doesn't that tell you anything? 

It tells me 3 of the top 19 O-linemen in the draft were from LSU.  Georgia had two, and no other team had more than 1.

[samhain]

(05-04-2020, 02:21 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Logan Woodside and Auden Tate?


Isn't that what we're basically going to have with Jonah Williams and Fred Johnson's one start between them (assuming Johnson beats out Hart, which is what everyone wants).


I don't think the article was necessarily disagreeing with the idea that several positions needed revamping, but was rather arguing that O-line should have been prioritized more when you have a rookie QB.

I think QBs would take the O-line over a defense if they couldn't all be fixed at once.

Maybe.  Then again maybe a QB would want and arsenal of weapons to distribute the ball to like Burrow had at LSU.  Hence Higgins in round 2.  Burrow's o-line was just okay.  None went on day 1.  Only 2 went on day 2.  One was a UDFA.  

On the other hand, 2 of his offensive skill counterparts went in round 1.  He's going to a team with 2 top end receivers that can't stay on the field.  I think it's every bit a justifiable to take a receiver as it is a OL.  

Add this to the fact that Mixon hasn't exactly had a lot of trouble running behind the current group, and I think holding off a year to allow for development before burning it down is justifiable.

[Earendil]

(05-04-2020, 05:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It tells me 3 of the top 19 O-linemen in the draft were from LSU.  Georgia had two, and no other team had more than 1.

I would ask if you want help moving that goalpost, but you're doing just fine on your own.

[McC]

(05-04-2020, 05:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It tells me 3 of the top 19 O-linemen in the draft were from LSU.  Georgia had two, and no other team had more than 1.

And none until the third round.  To the rest of the world other than you, that says a lot.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-03-2020, 02:33 PM)McC Wrote: The question I would have is if teams had a first round grade on Jones, why didn't somebody take him until the lower half of round 3?  

Knee issue, poor performance in Sr bowl as well.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-04-2020, 06:40 PM)McC Wrote: And none until the third round.  To the rest of the world other than you, that says a lot.

TJ agrees with you btw. Check out his comments about the LSU OL starting at the 39:40 mark...

https://youtu.be/xOeuPGRfC5c

[TheCincinnatiKid]

We could've put more into the O-Line to help Burrow, but we've been pumping resources into our O-line for years now... it seemingly just hasn't worked. We got great value with the picks we made (on paper) and I can't say I'd swap those for O-Line guys instead. In FA, we made a splash in numerous places... you can't just buy everybody.

I agree the OL still needs work and isn't primed to help our Franchise QB in his first year, but we did great at fixing the rest of the team. I think that article is very unfair in ignoring all of the work we have done. Sure it counts for nought if our OL is so bad it inhibits our QB's development, but as said we've tried to fix the OL for years now. If we'd have just done so again, we'd have been ignoring value in other spots, reaching for picks all over the place and neglecting the enormous holes we had elsewhere. Can't do it all in one offseason!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-05-2020, 09:54 AM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: We could've put more into the O-Line to help Burrow, but we've been pumping resources into our O-line for years now... it seemingly just hasn't worked. We got great value with the picks we made (on paper) and I can't say I'd swap those for O-Line guys instead. In FA, we made a splash in numerous places... you can't just buy everybody.

I agree the OL still needs work and isn't primed to help our Franchise QB in his first year, but we did great at fixing the rest of the team. I think that article is very unfair in ignoring all of the work we have done. Sure it counts for nought if our OL is so bad it inhibits our QB's development, but as said we've tried to fix the OL for years now. If we'd have just done so again, we'd have been ignoring value in other spots, reaching for picks all over the place and neglecting the enormous holes we had elsewhere. Can't do it all in one offseason!

And that’s just it...we can’t keep ignoring other positions in dire need of help. We went OL 3x out of our last 6 1st round picks. And Fisher was a 2nd. LB was arguably in even worse shape, and they really liked the guys they took this year. The work to fix the OL is obviously not over, but hopefully Jonah works out at LT, and Hopkins continues to be solid at Center, that’s the 2 most important positions right there. We can use our 1st or 2nd next year for a RT, and continue to bring in guys to compete at guard.

[*bfine32*]

(05-03-2020, 11:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What does this guy think he is doing posting actual statistics.  Doesn't he know that the "eye test" proves that thre LSU O-line was terrible and Burrow just made them look better.

Guess he is as blind as the NFL teams that drafted/signed every senior on that line.  And just as blind as the people who presented the Joe Moore Award to LSU for having the best O-line in the nation.

Surely over half of the starters from the best o-line in the Nation went in the first couple rounds of the draft. Surely NFL talent evaluators saw the prestigious Joe Moore award and but more stock in that than the eyeball test. 

I know it's a novel concept around here and one that has been denied for years, but a QB can make an oline stats better

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 06:40 PM)McC Wrote: And none until the third round.  To the rest of the world other than you, that says a lot.

To the rest of the world having 3 of the top 19 O-linemen coming from the same team means they had a fantastic O-line.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2020, 11:47 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I know it's a novel concept around here and one that has been denied for years, but a QB can make an oline stats better

Actually it is not a novel concept around here. It has only been said about a thousand times that Daltons quick release made or O-line look better than it was.

What is shocking to me is that you don't think professional NFL scouts are aware of this.

[McC]

(05-05-2020, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To the rest of the world having 3 of the top 19 O-linemen coming from the same team means they had a fantastic O-line.

Fantastic? Did any OLine go in the first two rounds?  Yes.  Quite a few.

Did any LSU linemen go in the first two rounds?  No. Quite a stretch to even use the word fantastic. Fantastic means drafted in the first or second round. Third round generally means could be pretty good but certainly not a slam dunk. Slam dunk goes in the first or second.

Sorry, Fred, you can't spin away the truth, no matter how many times you try to change the parameters. 

If they were as good as you claim, at least one of them would have gone in the first or second.  G's do go in the first round, right? 

Doesn't take Einstein to figure that one out.  The only person who wouldn't be able to figure it out is someone refusing to admit the truth.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2020, 12:18 PM)McC Wrote: Fantastic?  Did any OLine go in the first two rounds?  Yes.  Quite a few.

Did any LSU linemen go in the first two rounds?  No.  Quite a stretch to even use the word fantastic.  Fantastic means drafted in the first or second round.  Third round generally means could be pretty good but certainly not a slam dunk.  Slam dunk goes in the first or second.

Sorry, Fred, you can't spin away the truth, no matter how many times you try to change the parameters. 

If they were as good as you claim, at least one of them would have gone in the first or second.  G's do go in the first round, right? 

Doesn't take Einstein to figure that one out.  The only person who wouldn't be able to figure it out is someone refusing to admit the truth.

You are completely clueless. ONE first or second round pick does not make a great O-line. And third round picks are still top players in the country. Considering 5 starters per team being in the top 19 in the country is pretty damn impressive.

[McC]

(05-05-2020, 12:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are completely clueless. ONE first or second round pick does not make a great O-line. And third round picks are still top players in the country. Considering 5 starters per team being in the top 19 in the country is pretty damn impressive.

Thank you for the personal insult.  Stupid me thinking we were having an adult conversation. Looks like you go back in time out.

Top OLinemen go in the first or second.  Guys who might be good go in the third or after.  

[samhain]

(05-05-2020, 12:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are completely clueless. ONE first or second round pick does not make a great O-line. And third round picks are still top players in the country. Considering 5 starters per team being in the top 19 in the country is pretty damn impressive.

You know who else are the top players in the country?  Guys that go in the first round.  Did anyone from the LSU offense go in round 1?  I count 3 guys.  All picked by your almighty NFL talent evaluators.  All before any LSU o-lineman.  

It's almost like the guys that get paid to decide value thought the Qb and skill players were the major factor leading to LSU's success.  

Are you really going to argue with NFL talent evaluators that by default know more than you, the message board guy?

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2020, 02:42 PM)samhain Wrote: Are you really going to argue with NFL talent evaluators that by default know more than you, the message board guy?

I am 100% agreeing with the NFL talent evaluators.

According to them LSU had the #2 OG, #3 OC, and #12 OT in the draft.  And some how all three of these "not good" linemen were either first or second team All-SEC

The people I am disagreeing with are the ones who claim that was not one of the best O-lines in the country.  If the O-linemen were not good and the production was all due to skill players then these O-linemen would not be rated that high.  NFL scouts are not that stupid.  They realize it is possible to have BOTH good skill players and good offensive linemen.  


For some strange reason they don't feel obligated to freak out when someone suggests that Joe Burrow did not win the National Championship all by himself.

[TSwigZ]

(05-03-2020, 11:52 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: I read this article yesterday and it didn't have the XSF signing in it. It actually said the team didn't sign any o-lineman in free agency. So, the premise the the team hasn't done anything to improve the online just isn't true and the writer already had to correct it. Now, I am as big a critic of this group of olinemen as anybody and I think the team has put faith in the wrong players, but you can't say they haven't done anything.

LT - Frist rounder
LG - Fourth rounder
C - Solid vet
RG - Open competition between a second rounder, first rounder
RT - Open competition between the worst RT in football and a promising waiver wire claim

Backups competition - Adeniji, Prince, Dugas, Redmond, Cordasco and Knipfel

So, in my opinion they could have done more/different at the RT spot, but the rest of the line has some intriguing options that could turn out pretty well.

From everything I’ve read the team is high on Fred Johnson’s development at RT. That being said we have no idea how good Jonah Williams is yet and the only position we can say is solid really is Center and even Hopkins is average. I think they’ll be better than last year but nobody honestly knows how good our OL is going to be.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

Came into this thread late and I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, but I did want to talk about the O line. There are only a few options out there that would improve the situation at this point as I see it.

Larry Warford. Currently under contract with the Saints, rumored to be either dealt or cut. I think they'll actually take him into training camp, and cut/trade him if he doesn't win the starting job. Either way we'd have to beat other teams to the punch for a guy who is, per rumor, falling out of favor with the Saints, and who wouldn't have TC to learn our scheme.

Joe Thuney. Pats have until July 15 to reach an agreement with him to lower his cap number. I'd give up a #2 in 2021 for him right now, as long as we had a new deal in place for him, but I doubt we will.

Kelvin Beachum. Probably washed up as a starting tackle, but has played guard before and could start there for us, sliding out to OT in an emergency. But, at this point of his career he'll probably wait until TC to sign. I wouldn't hate it at all.

Jason Peters. At the end of a hall of fame career, Peters will wait for a serious contender to have an injury at OT. No way he signs with the Bengals.

Brian Winters, NYJ. Rumored to be cut but hasn't been yet. That could happen in TC if he doesn't win the starting job, but then again if he can't win a starting job on the Jets O line how much help could he be here? A veteran in decline. Meh.

[McC]

(05-05-2020, 07:16 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Came into this thread late and I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, but I did want to talk about the O line. There are only a few options out there that would improve the situation at this point as I see it.

Larry Warford. Currently under contract with the Saints, rumored to be either dealt or cut. I think they'll actually take him into training camp, and cut/trade him if he doesn't win the starting job. Either way we'd have to beat other teams to the punch for a guy who is, per rumor, falling out of favor with the Saints, and who wouldn't have TC to learn our scheme.

Joe Thuney. Pats have until July 15 to reach an agreement with him to lower his cap number. I'd give up a #2 in 2021 for him right now, as long as we had a new deal in place for him, but I doubt we will.

Kelvin Beachum. Probably washed up as a starting tackle, but has played guard before and could start there for us, sliding out to OT in an emergency. But, at this point of his career he'll probably wait until TC to sign. I wouldn't hate it at all.

Jason Peters. At the end of a hall of fame career, Peters will wait for a serious contender to have an injury at OT. No way he signs with the Bengals.

Brian Winters, NYJ. Rumored to be cut but hasn't been yet. That could happen in TC if he doesn't win the starting job, but then again if he can't win a starting job on the Jets O line how much help could he be here? A veteran in decline. Meh.

How is it that you know this?

[*Synric*]

The Bengals gave up 12 sacks in two games to the Squeelers.

Scheme and better QB Play can both help but there is no way around it the Bengals offensive line has to play better.