Look at broken tackles from 2019

[fredtoast]

All stats from Footballoutsiders.

Last year the Bengals defense was "only" 20th in broken tackle percentage.  I say "only" because it seemed much worse.  The reason for that is the Bengals defense was on the field for so many plays.  They were 4th in total broken tackles, but the percentage was low because of the high number of plays.

Nick Vigil led all LBs with 23 broken tackles.  But when you look at broken tackles as a percentage of total tackles there wer actually several worse then him.

I doubt anyone is surprised by Vigil being #1 among all LBs, but it was a bit of a surprise that our safeties finished #1 (Bates 23) and #2 (Williams 22) in broken tackles.  Again when you look at it as a percentage of total tackles there are several that are worse.

We HAVE to get better at tackling.  The 2019 numbers are actually slightly better than 2018 (25th in %), but still completely unacceptable.  

A lot has been made of the tackling abilities of the DBs we signed.  It looks like there may be something to this.  Look at the broken tackle percentages for the new guys and the players they replaced (lower percentage better)

Trae Waynes…….12.9%
Kirkpatrick...…...19.4%

Alexander...……… 3.7%
Dennard...……….11.1%

Bell...……………...16.7%
Bates...…………...26.7%
Williams...………..23.2%

Unfortunately the Free agent LB we signed is pretty much the same as Vigil in broken tackle %, but hopefully we won't see much of him on the filed with all the LBs we drafted

Bynes………………..26.9%
Vigil...………………..28.8%

Hope no one is planning on Bynes making the tackles against Lamar Jackson that Vigil whiffed.

[GreenCornBengal]

(05-08-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All stats from Footballoutsiders.

Last year the Bengals defense was "only" 20th in broken tackle percentage.  I say "only" because it seemed much worse.  The reason for that is the Bengals defense was on the field for so many plays.  They were 4th in total broken tackles, but the percentage was low because of the high number of plays.

Nick Vigil led all LBs with 23 broken tackles.  But when you look at broken tackles as a percentage of total tackles there wer actually several worse then him.

I doubt anyone is surprised by Vigil being #1 among all LBs, but it was a bit of a surprise that our safeties finished #1 (Bates 23) and #2 (Williams 22) in broken tackles.  Again when you look at it as a percentage of total tackles there are several that are worse.

We HAVE to get better at tackling.  The 2019 numbers are actually slightly better than 2018 (25th in %), but still completely unacceptable.  

A lot has been made of the tackling abilities of the DBs we signed.  It looks like there may be something to this.  Look at the numbers for the new guys and the players they replaced (lower percentage better)

Trae Waynes…….12.9%
Kirkpatrick...…...19.4%

Alexander...……… 3.7%
Dennard...……….11.1%

Bell...……………...16.7%
Bates...…………...26.7%
Williams...………..23.2%

Unfortunately the Free agent LB e signed is pretty much the same as Vigil in broken tackle %, but hopefully we won't see much of him on the filed with all the LBs we drafted

Bynes………………..26.9%
Vigil...………………..28.8%

Hope no one is planning on Bynes making the tackles against Lamar Jackson that Vigil whiffed.

Nice post, it's an interesting metric. Bates was really bad last year in the run game. He would come up to make the tackle in the box and completely whiff. Led to some big runs on the outside.

I personally feel that Bynes will be phased out of the starting lineup as the rookie LBs prove themselves over the season. Hopefully Logan Wilson, ADG and the others will have this metric down in the 15-20% range.

[fredtoast]

As with any stat you have to look at the whole picture.

A low percentage of broken tackles is meaningless if the player can't shed blockers and get to the ball carrier enough to even attempt the tackle. All other things being equal a guy who gets to the ball carrier 60 times but misses 10 tackles is still better than a guy who just gets to the ball carrier 40 times.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Kind of weird Bates tackled so well as a rookie (much better than I thought he would) and then regressed so much in this area.

Hopefully the addition of Vonn Bell will really help him out. This and more physical tackling practices.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-08-2020, 06:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kind of weird Bates tackled so well as a rookie (much better than I thought he would) and then regressed so much in this area.

Hopefully the addition of Vonn Bell will really help him out. This and more physical tackling practices.

Good point. I've been wondering if the guys so guilty of bad tackling last year were always bad tacklers, or if they just developed bad habits under this coaching staff. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Kirkpatrick was always bad at tackling, but he's just one guy. You hear so much from ZT about trying to keep them fresh, etc, you just wonder if the flipside of that is you let bad habits slip in. 

[thompson19osu]

(05-08-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All stats from Footballoutsiders.

Last year the Bengals defense was "only" 20th in broken tackle percentage.  I say "only" because it seemed much worse.  The reason for that is the Bengals defense was on the field for so many plays.  They were 4th in total broken tackles, but the percentage was low because of the high number of plays.

Nick Vigil led all LBs with 23 broken tackles.  But when you look at broken tackles as a percentage of total tackles there wer actually several worse then him.

I doubt anyone is surprised by Vigil being #1 among all LBs, but it was a bit of a surprise that our safeties finished #1 (Bates 23) and #2 (Williams 22) in broken tackles.  Again when you look at it as a percentage of total tackles there are several that are worse.

We HAVE to get better at tackling.  The 2019 numbers are actually slightly better than 2018 (25th in %), but still completely unacceptable.  

A lot has been made of the tackling abilities of the DBs we signed.  It looks like there may be something to this.  Look at the broken tackle percentages for the new guys and the players they replaced (lower percentage better)

Trae Waynes…….12.9%
Kirkpatrick...…...19.4%

Alexander...……… 3.7%
Dennard...……….11.1%

Bell...……………...16.7%
Bates...…………...26.7%
Williams...………..23.2%

Unfortunately the Free agent LB we signed is pretty much the same as Vigil in broken tackle %, but hopefully we won't see much of him on the filed with all the LBs we drafted

Bynes………………..26.9%
Vigil...………………..28.8%

Hope no one is planning on Bynes making the tackles against Lamar Jackson that Vigil whiffed.

That Alexander stat at <4%...that’s exciting. Also for Bynes I’m hoping he is there just more as a mentor and teacher to the young guys rather than actually having a lot of playing time. I’m just hoping the D of ‘20 will be able to get off the field.

[impactplaya]

Can you post where playoff teams ranked in missed tackles ?
I do know when defenses are on the field after continous 3 and outs
Tackling fundamentals go by the wayside
And i think missed tackles it really starts with attitude and desire
Your down by 13 with 3 minutes to go.
How many times have we seen arm tackles , guys not wrapping up etc
One thing I recall about Lewis playoff teams his defenses has really
Fundamental tacklers.
With teams hitting less in practice now , maybe that affects the Sunday tackling i dont know

[Housh]

(05-08-2020, 06:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kind of weird Bates tackled so well as a rookie (much better than I thought he would) and then regressed so much in this area.

Hopefully the addition of Vonn Bell will really help him out. This and more physical tackling practices.

This is interesting.

He just didnt all of a sudden not know how to tackle

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(05-08-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All stats from Footballoutsiders.

Last year the Bengals defense was "only" 20th in broken tackle percentage.  I say "only" because it seemed much worse.  The reason for that is the Bengals defense was on the field for so many plays.  They were 4th in total broken tackles, but the percentage was low because of the high number of plays.

Nick Vigil led all LBs with 23 broken tackles.  But when you look at broken tackles as a percentage of total tackles there wer actually several worse then him.

I doubt anyone is surprised by Vigil being #1 among all LBs, but it was a bit of a surprise that our safeties finished #1 (Bates 23) and #2 (Williams 22) in broken tackles.  Again when you look at it as a percentage of total tackles there are several that are worse.

We HAVE to get better at tackling.  The 2019 numbers are actually slightly better than 2018 (25th in %), but still completely unacceptable.  

A lot has been made of the tackling abilities of the DBs we signed.  It looks like there may be something to this.  Look at the broken tackle percentages for the new guys and the players they replaced (lower percentage better)

Trae Waynes…….12.9%
Kirkpatrick...…...19.4%

Alexander...……… 3.7%
Dennard...……….11.1%

Bell...……………...16.7%
Bates...…………...26.7%
Williams...………..23.2%

Unfortunately the Free agent LB we signed is pretty much the same as Vigil in broken tackle %, but hopefully we won't see much of him on the filed with all the LBs we drafted

Bynes………………..26.9%
Vigil...………………..28.8%

Hope no one is planning on Bynes making the tackles against Lamar Jackson that Vigil whiffed.

Good post.

Agree that improving the run defense, and tackling was certainly a priority. Reader, and all the DBs we added are all better run stoppers/tacklers than the guys they are replacing.

Going to disagree on Bynes. IDK why, but a lot of folk seem to think/hope he won't play much. He started half the year for a very good Ravens D last year. And graded out VERY well. He is gonna start at MIKE. Period. Not that PFF should be treated as gospel or anything, but take a gander:

2019 PFF Grades:
DJ Reader 86.7 (Billings 69.3)
Josh Bynes 76.6 (Vigil 54.4)
Alexander 65.7 (Dennard 72.2)
Waynes 65.1 (Kirkpatrick 61.7)
Bell 62.8 (S. Williams 54.4)
--------------
Dunlap 89.7
Atkins 76.2
Hubbard 67.1
Bates 59.7
Jackson 53.6
Pratt 51.2 (P. Brown 45.9)
-------------
Tupou 73.8
Lawson 55.5
Phillips 81.6
S. Williams 54.4
B. Wilson 47.5

As you can see, Bynes graded out as our 3rd best defender (amongst the starters), behind only Dunlap & Reader. Phillips also graded higher, but did not play much.

I did not search for grades on guys that played smaller roles (P. Brown, Glasgow, etc).

[fredtoast]

Hell has frozen over.  I am actually agreeing with i mpactplaya on multiple points here.

(05-08-2020, 10:18 PM)i mpactplaya Wrote: And i think missed tackles it really starts with attitude and desire 
Your down by 13 with 3 minutes to go. 
How many times have we seen arm tackles , guys not wrapping up  etc 

This happens A LOT. Tackling is like rebounding and playing defense in basketball.  There are certain fundamentals you have to master, but most of it is just desire and determination.

(05-08-2020, 10:18 PM)i mpactplaya Wrote: One thing I recall about Lewis playoff teams his defenses has really 
Fundamental tacklers. 
With teams hitting less in practice now , maybe that affects the Sunday tackling i dont know

When one player is a bad tackler you look at the player.  When the whole team is bad at tackling you look at the coaches  I don't know if the players are lacking technique or desire, but I look for the coaches to address this problem with some other changes besides just shuffling in new players.  Being out of position or taking bad angles can also make tackling harder.  It is much easier to complete a tackle if you are getting a clean shot at the ball carrier instead of just being lucky to get an arm on him.

Less contact in practice may hurt tackling, but it would be equal for all teams.  As bad as the Bengals have looked they are still not close to the worst in broken tackle percentage.  I have not compared the numbers, but it certainly did seem like the defenses under Zimmer and Geunthar were much better at tackling.  Maybe the whole league just looked better back then.

[Sled21]

I just don't remember seeing Bates miss very many tackles. I think something is suspect here.

[Luvnit2]

(05-08-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All stats from Footballoutsiders.

Last year the Bengals defense was "only" 20th in broken tackle percentage.  I say "only" because it seemed much worse.  The reason for that is the Bengals defense was on the field for so many plays.  They were 4th in total broken tackles, but the percentage was low because of the high number of plays.

Nick Vigil led all LBs with 23 broken tackles.  But when you look at broken tackles as a percentage of total tackles there wer actually several worse then him.

I doubt anyone is surprised by Vigil being #1 among all LBs, but it was a bit of a surprise that our safeties finished #1 (Bates 23) and #2 (Williams 22) in broken tackles.  Again when you look at it as a percentage of total tackles there are several that are worse.

We HAVE to get better at tackling.  The 2019 numbers are actually slightly better than 2018 (25th in %), but still completely unacceptable.  

A lot has been made of the tackling abilities of the DBs we signed.  It looks like there may be something to this.  Look at the broken tackle percentages for the new guys and the players they replaced (lower percentage better)

Trae Waynes…….12.9%
Kirkpatrick...…...19.4%

Alexander...……… 3.7%
Dennard...……….11.1%

Bell...……………...16.7%
Bates...…………...26.7%
Williams...………..23.2%

Unfortunately the Free agent LB we signed is pretty much the same as Vigil in broken tackle %, but hopefully we won't see much of him on the filed with all the LBs we drafted

Bynes………………..26.9%
Vigil...………………..28.8%

Hope no one is planning on Bynes making the tackles against Lamar Jackson that Vigil whiffed.

Good thread. Bates definitely regressed with tacking in 2019, so let's hope he can be better. My beef all along is a defense is defined by it's ability to be in the right place, but then execute the tackle or pass break up. We looked a college team at times in 2019, weak and soft. It also is not just missing a tackle, it is win you miss it. It seemed to me we gave a lot of first downs on 3rd down due to missed tackles which mentally kills a defense and also keeps them on the field (rest).

[SunsetBengal]

When I saw "broken Tackles" in the title, I thought this thread was going to be about Cordy Glenn and Andre Smith..

The actual broken tackle analysis is interesting, as more broken tackle allowed = drives extended = more downs on the field = a greater fatigue rate resulting in a higher chance of more broken tackles.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2020, 11:41 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Good thread. Bates definitely regressed with tacking in 2019, so let's hope he can be better. My beef all along is a defense is defined by it's ability to be in the right place, but then execute the tackle or pass break up. We looked a college team at times in 2019, weak and soft. It also is not just missing a tackle, it is win you miss it. It seemed to me we gave a lot of first downs on 3rd down due to missed tackles which mentally kills a defense and also keeps them on the field (rest).

Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons.  I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's.  And our defense has also been very balanced.  We have managed to be shitty at everything.  Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks.  Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions.  But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards 
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer  rating
24 interceptions

There are multiple different issues that could contribute to bad tackling numbers and we failed on every level.

[Destro]

Bengals missing tackles have always upset me. Poor fundamentals.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2020, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons.  I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's.  And our defense has also been very balanced.  We have managed to be shitty at everything.  Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks.  Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions.  But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards 
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer  rating
24 interceptions

There are multiple different issues that could contribute to bad tackling numbers and we failed on every level.

I know it won't happen and some say I am crazy for suggesting we sign Clowney, but based on these numbers, we need a total defense make over. They started with some great additions and cuts. Why not Clowney unless we are going to spend money on OG Warford.

I think we are closer now with this off season than some realize, one more great move of a player who can contribute in 2020 and 2021 makes sense to me.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(05-09-2020, 11:48 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When I saw "broken Tackles" in the title, I thought this thread was going to be about Cordy Glenn and Andre Smith..

...and when I read “broken tackles” I thought about Jonah Williams.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(05-09-2020, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since we have some talented players on our defense a lot of people don't realize just how epically bad our defense has been these last two seasons.  I challenge anyone to find a worse two year stretch even in the deep darkness of the 1990's.  And our defense has also been very balanced.  We have managed to be shitty at everything.  Sometimes teams gamble with blitzes and give up more big plays but also get more sacks.  Or DBs give up big plays going for interceptions but also get more interceptions.  But just look at where the Bengals defense ranks over the last two years.

32 total yards
32 rushing yards 
32 third down conversions
31 third down conversion %
30 passing yards
29 points
29 sacks
28 rush yards per carry
27 fourth down conversion %
27 rushing yards
27 turnovers
26 passer  rating
24 interceptions

There are multiple different issues that could contribute to bad tackling numbers and we failed on every level.

In addition to being poor, the fact that the offense was so godawful did not help. I have seen a lot of games where we stay in it for 3 quarters and run out of gas because the offense looks like a Chorus Line (1-2-3 kick!).

I would argue that, in fact, it is a total rebuild on defense (5 new starters + Pratt became a starter mid-season last year + Wilson & ADG). We are just starting out with the run D/tackling, and for good reason.

Better run D means longer yardage on 2nd & 3rd downs. Deeper drops. Lower conversion rates. More difficult passes attempted. More sacks. More picks. Hard to generate any of that when the other team is looking at 2nd and 4 all the time.

[Destro]

(05-09-2020, 01:44 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why not Clowney ....

He wants two Brinks trucks and is worth about an F-250. Most teams would love to have him. He feels he can choose any team he wants to play. Now those two have to connect with the contract, and that is where there are huge disconnects.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2020, 03:59 PM)Destro Wrote: He wants two Brinks trucks and is worth about an F-250. Most teams would love to have him. He feels he can choose any team he wants to play. Now those two have to connect with the contract, and that is where there are huge disconnects.

I am curious how you know anything you just wrote?

Have the Bengals reached out? If so, please tell us how you know that.