Which team was a better team 2005 or 2015

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-11-2020, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.

It is only a TD if the defense does not implode and hand the Stealers a victory.

Which is exactly what happened.

You can't just pretend stuff in your head and claim it is true.  You REALLY think there has never been an NFL team that scored a TD with in 1:13?  How much are you willing to bet on that?

Which is exactly what happened because the O pissed away the turnover the D gave them, and then set up a situation where a FG wins the game rather than requiring a TD with less time and no timeouts.

It's a completely different set of circumstances.

Fred, you are the king of pretending stuff in your head and claiming it's true. You saying that is hilarious. It's like James Harrison saying that helmet-to-helmet hits are bad.

Apparently I have more faith in the 2nd ranked scoring defense (that had only allowed 15 points through 58 minutes) holding a team from getting a TD in roughly 1:13 with 0 timeouts and a hurt QB than you do.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-11-2020, 02:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you don't find anything unacceptable about the way the defense played after the fumble?

If the defense does not implode the Bengals win.  

Except even with the implosion, if Hill didn't fumble, the Steelers still had to get a TD. Getting moved into FG range by penalties was meaningless for the Steelers if they needed a TD and had zero timeouts.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2020, 03:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Apparently I have more faith in the 2nd ranked scoring defense (that had only allowed 15 points through 58 minutes) holding a team from getting a TD in roughly 1:13 with 0 timeouts and a hurt QB than you do.

Actually I had faith that we would not give up a FG.

Just more proof that thinking something is true does not make it true.

What the offense did had NOTHING to do with the defense imploding.  Stealers had the ball on their own 9 yard line with a gimpy QB and only 1:23 left.

The Hill fumble was a big mistake, but it was only PART of the reason we lost.  Even if we kick a FG we still lose if the defense folds.

And that is exactly what happened.

[*Nately120*]

(05-10-2020, 05:32 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Greatest and worst day of my life took place that day. All in less than 2 minutes. Man, the high I was on when we were finally going to win a playoff game, and against the Steelers at that? My BP was up so bad I was shaking like I had just hit the megamillion. Then, well, death knocked at the door.

I recall watching that 2015 debacle and when we were up and had the ball my buddy was like "Congrats, the drought it over" and I just said "It's not over yet."  Not until the clock says 00:00 do I think the Bengals are going to win against the Steelers...it just doesn't pay off.

[*bfine32*]

(05-11-2020, 01:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2013 team was not in the same class as the 2015 team.

The claim the Bengals were running at will over the Chargers and just decided to stop trying is also false.  Second half the Bengals ran the ball 5 of their first 6 first downs.  Benny started the second half with a nice run but on those next 4 first down rushes he and Gio combined for just 8 total yards.

I still don't understand what happened in that game.  The second half our offensive line forgot how to block for the run or the pass (Dalton was sacked 3 times and forced to scramble/run 3 other times in 2nd half) and our defense could not stop the run (SD 19 carries for 118 in second half)

Dalton had a terrible game, but you can't blame him for the loss.  The whole team crumbled

What made the 2015 team more talented than the 2013 team?

As to the rest: BS, but we've been down that road before. You mention the 118 yards on 19 carries but fail to mention 1 was for 58 yards when the Bengals were selling out on defense trying to get the ball back with 2:27 left in the game after the offense had turned the ball over for the 5th straight series. Take away them desperately trying to get the ball back and the Chargers rush for 60 yards on 18 carries. We held Rivers to about 120 passing yards.

Ben average over 5 YPC that game. But somehow that's not running over somebody, but our D couldn't stop the run because we held them to 3.3.YPC in the 2nd half until the one fluke play

Saying the defense is to share equal blame for that 2013 loss and do so by using one play instead of the whole game is like saying Andy Dalton is an elite QB because of a 10 game stretch in a 9 year career.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2020, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What made the 2015 team more talented than the 2013 team?

Mainly getting Gresham out of the way and letting Eifert bloom into a star.

Plus Andy playing so much better.  2015 team without Andy was clearly not as good as the 2013 team.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2020, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  You mention the 118 yards on 19 carries but fail to mention 1 was for 58 yards when the Bengals were selling out on defense trying to get the ball back with 2:27 left in the game

You obviously did not watch the game. There were no missed tackles by guys trying to strip the ball on that play.  We were desperately trying to stop the run and they gouged us anyway.

We tried to run the ball in the second half but the Chargers played it well.  They stopped our first down runs pretty consistently and when when we got behind the chains their pass rush killed us.

[*bfine32*]

(05-11-2020, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You obviously did not watch the game. There were no missed tackles by guys trying to strip the ball on that play.  We were desperately trying to stop the run and they gouged us anyway.

We tried to run the ball in the second half but the Chargers played it well.  They stopped our first down runs pretty consistently and when when we got behind the chains their pass rush killed us.

The old "obviously, you didn't watch the game" stance. We were handling SD's rush offense just fine. We were holding Brown to 2.7 YPC before he busted the long one. We had just held him to a 2 yard carry the play before.

There's really no need in continuing this discussion, feel free tho blame D "equally" with the O in that game. Once you ignore every other part of a post except one little sentence to try to illustrate your "point" I know it's not going to get any better. You keep saying it enough and maybe one day you'll actually believe it. FWIW, I think you have and do.

Gresh had 7 catches for 68 yards and Andy's lone career playoff TD pass in that game, but I've been told we were a more talented team without him. 

[*jason*]

(05-11-2020, 01:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Leonard's/ Fred's back and forth: I don't blame any Bengals.

Jeremy Hill was trying his hardest to gain yards and seal the game

Vontaze Burfict was the reason we were winning the game

I do blame the refs for not calling a foul when Gio received a cheaper hit than AB and they didn't call that one. Burfict may have thought "they're letting us play"

I do blame the refs for not flagging Joey Porter for running onto the field, but instead flag Pacman for telling him to GTFO.

So I blame the refs. They should have been wearing black and yellow instead of black and white

While I agree that hit on Gio was cheap, that hit wasn't a penalty at the time. Some contrived rule that you could hit a guy in the head once he's established as a runner. Conveniently it's a personal foul now.... And yes; Burfict definitely thought they were letting them play. On the micd up highlights you hear him say it on the sidelines

I dislike Joey Porter as much as any Bengals fan, but he and Tomlin played us like a fiddle. I don't think him bring out on the field was a penalty at the time. Mr I Play Better Without My Meds should've shown a lil restraint like every other guy in the huddle... And like Pacman has failed to do time and time again.

Water under the bridge though... Sack up and move on like you said way back then. Usually posts don't stick with me, but I found that one amusing.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-10-2020, 03:10 PM)jason Wrote: 2015... That team was very well rounded, and probably could've made some noise if Dalton doesn't go down. McCarron stunk it up for 80% of that playoff game, and we still had it won before we melted down.

The 2005 team was awesome on offense, and very suspect on D. They never really won a shootout that year, and I just never really bought that narrative of we go all the way if Carson doesn't blowout his knee. Even if they got past Pittsburgh, Peyton Manning owned the Bengals in his prime.

This. We could of won it all in 2015 with that Defense.

Never would of happened with that 2005 Defense.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(05-10-2020, 05:28 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The 2005 offense with the 2015 defense would have been absolutely unstoppable.

Give those two entities the luck that the Steelers or Patriots routinely have and we'd have somehow managed a 20-0 season.

Back to OP's question, definitely the 2015 team. Strong offence, solid defence... to be honest that team had all the pieces it needed to seriously win it all. 2005 were a strong team and a great offence, but a terrible defence. Even if Carson doesn't get his leg broken, I imagine our defence would've cost us a game in the playoffs down the line.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(05-11-2020, 03:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I had faith that we would not give up a FG.

Just more proof that thinking something is true does not make it true.

What the offense did had NOTHING to do with the defense imploding.  Stealers had the ball on their own 9 yard line with a gimpy QB and only 1:23 left.

The Hill fumble was a big mistake, but it was only PART of the reason we lost.  Even if we kick a FG we still lose if the defense folds.

And that is exactly what happened.

I partially disagree with the bold, but get what you're saying. Hill's fumble took the game from practically a guaranteed win and put the defence on the back foot, momentum against them (as the Steelers are obviously pumped to get the ball again) and means they have to win the game for us about a minute after Burfict had practically done so.

To be honest the argument you guys are having on this one is pretty pointless. The Hill fumble was as anti-clutch as it gets. We win the game without that. The defensive drive to follow was also as anti-clutch as it gets. We win the game if we stop a broken QB orchestrating a 50 yard drive with the help of the thickest penalties you'll ever see. Both were atrocious and created one of the most ridiculous endings to a game you'll ever see. Our closing of that game is SO BAD that it really is pointless debating whether the Hill fumble or the Burfict/Jones double capitulation were worse. 

[Essex Johnson]

(05-11-2020, 06:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The old "obviously, you didn't watch the game" stance. We were handling SD's rush offense just fine. We were holding Brown to 2.7 YPC before he busted the long one. We had just held him to a 2 yard carry the play before.

There's really no need in continuing this discussion, feel free tho blame D "equally" with the O in that game. Once you ignore every other part of a post except one little sentence to try to illustrate your "point" I know it's not going to get any better. You keep saying it enough and maybe one day you'll actually believe it. FWIW, I think you have and do.

Gresh had 7 catches for 68 yards and Andy's lone career playoff TD pass in that game, but I've been told we were a more talented team without him. 

"Handling the Run just Fine".. what game did you watch ?  I was there.. it was painful as the 2nd half came.. our Defense just could not stop the run.. they only threw for 128 yards and ran for 196... if if if.. Brown had a 58 yard run.. it happen.. but take that run away you are still talking about 140 yards.. and also you don;t run the ball 40 times  with our getting some first downs...especially when many of those runs came in the 2nd half 
Andy did not have a terrible game 29 out of 51 for 334 1 TD/2 INT.. yes turnover hurt us 4 to 0 (which also goes to blame on defense.. they made no BIG PLAYS).. Gio turnover to me was the turning point in the game in 1st half.

The lose to Chargers falls on as much the Defense as it does the Offense..

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2020, 05:39 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: "Handling the Run just Fine".. what game did you watch ?  I was there.. it was painful as the 2nd half came.. our Defense just could not stop the run.. they only threw for 128 yards and ran for 196... if if if.. Brown had a 58 yard run.. it happen.. but take that run away you are still talking about 140 yards.. and also you don;t run the ball 40 times  with our getting some first downs...especially when many of those runs came in the 2nd half 
Andy did not have a terrible game 29 out of 51 for 334 1 TD/2 INT.. yes turnover hurt us 4 to 0 (which also goes to blame on defense.. they made no BIG PLAYS).. Gio turnover to me was the turning point in the game in 1st half.

The lose to Chargers falls on as much the Defense as it does the Offense..

Was that a typo when you said "Andy did not have a terrible game"?

What difference does it make if you "were there" except you were in the worst place to actually see the plays. it's been explained what happened with the Brown 58 yarder. There was 2 minutes left in the game and trying to get the ball back because miraculously they were only down by 10 after the defense turned the ball over 5 straight times.

The offense turned the ball over every series in the second half except the opening drive. The defense held Rivers to 128 passing yards (about 150 yards under his season average). thge Charger's run game average 4 YPC that season; without the Brown play we held them to about 3 YPC that game.

The Gio turnover wasn't the turning point. our crappy D held SD to 3 and out after that turnover (if memory serves SD actually lost yards) and we put 3 more points on the board before halftime. Anyone who says the defense was as responsible for that loss in out of their mind IMO.

[Kingslayer]

Personally I don't get the landslide for the 2015 team. The 05 offense was ELITE, the defense lead the league in turnovers. Not much comparison IMHO

[Essex Johnson]

(05-11-2020, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What made the 2015 team more talented than the 2013 team?

As to the rest: BS, but we've been down that road before. You mention the 118 yards on 19 carries but fail to mention 1 was for 58 yards when the Bengals were selling out on defense trying to get the ball back with 2:27 left in the game after the offense had turned the ball over for the 5th straight series. Take away them desperately trying to get the ball back and the Chargers rush for 60 yards on 18 carries. We held Rivers to about 120 passing yards.

Ben average over 5 YPC that game. But somehow that's not running over somebody, but our D couldn't stop the run because we held them to 3.3.YPC in the 2nd half until the one fluke play

Saying the defense is to share equal blame for that 2013 loss and do so by using one play instead of the whole game is like saying Andy Dalton is an elite QB because of a 10 game stretch in a 9 year career.

The Chargers ran the ball 40 times in that game.. what that tells you is they were able to control ball even if it was not big runs..  Rivers did not need to throw when you are able to run that much and get first downs and he was efficient when he did 12 out of 16 with a passer rating of 119 . As much as i respect Zimmer.. his defense did not do well overall in the playoffs especially against the run.. Also they had ZERO takeaways and gave up 20 points in 2nd half.( i understand short fields with turnovers but first drive in 2nd half.. Rivers was 6 for 6 and a TD that put them in the lead for good). Dalton was bad 2nd half and good 1st half.. he three for over 330 was 29 out of 51.. but his turnovers were very costly.  In the end this game both the offense and defense had chances to turn this into a Win but neither did....

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-13-2020, 11:05 PM)Kingslayer Wrote: Personally I don't get the landslide for the 2015 team. The 05 offense was ELITE, the defense lead the league in turnovers. Not much comparison IMHO

I voted 2015, but I definitely think it’s closer than some are suggesting.

That offense was just crazy good.

Palmer > Dalton
Chad > AJ
TJ > Marvin
Rudi > Hill
Henry > Sanu

[Bilbo Saggins]

(05-11-2020, 06:50 PM)jason Wrote: While I agree that hit on Gio was cheap, that hit wasn't a penalty at the time. Some contrived rule that you could hit a guy in the head once he's established as a runner. Conveniently it's a personal foul now.... And yes; Burfict definitely thought they were letting them play. On the micd up highlights you hear him say it on the sidelines

I dislike Joey Porter as much as any Bengals fan, but he and Tomlin played us like a fiddle. I don't think him bring out on the field was a penalty at the time. Mr I Play Better Without My Meds should've shown a lil restraint like every other guy in the huddle... And like Pacman has failed to do time and time again.

Water under the bridge though... Sack up and move on like you said way back then. Usually posts don't stick with me, but I found that one amusing.

Yes it was.  At the time if a player was deemed to have lined up and speared another player with the crown of his helmet, that was considered a penalty.  The argument at the time was that Shazier did not "line up" prior to the hit - which is obviously not accurate based upon the apparent force that was used.  The wording was meant to prevent ticky-tack penalties where there's incidental contact.  That hit was one of his many obvious spears.  I guess maybe they shouldn't enforced the rule properly, eh?

And yes it was.  Porter wasn't supposed to be on the field.  Munchak pulled Nelson's hair.  The Pitt coaches were absolutely out of control that game.  If my livelihood and paycheck depended on the outcome of that game, and I saw them get away with all of this...my word would I be seeing red.

[TecmoBengals]

I voted 2005 and I am surprised the 2015 squad has received a lot more support.

The '05 squad had a good group of Pro Bowl Players:

QB - Palmer
RB - Rudi
WR - Chad
OL - Willie
CB - O'Neal

Chad, Willie, and O'Neal were also All-Pro players.

During weeks 12-15 they had an impressive winning streak that included beating the Ravens 42-29, Steelers 38-31, Browns 23-20, the Lions 41-17. They closed out the season with losses to the Bills and Chiefs. Despite those two losses, it felt like '05 team had momentum headed into the playoffs. They were up 10-0 in the 1st quarter, but then Palmer got von Oelhoffen'ed and that really sucked. The momentum was sucked out of the team.

I know many claim, "there is no way they are getting by the Colts" but I think that is an oversimplified statement. Of course we don't know since it didn't happen, but if Pittsburgh could beat them, then so could have the Bengals. The 2005 squad had that 'it' factor that made it seem anything was possible. Palmer to Chad was a TD waiting to happen at any given moment.

It was likely my second favorite Bengals team to watch; first of course being the '88 - '89 Bengals with guys like Boomer, Ickey, JB, and Eddie Brown (I was a big Brown fan).