The Last Dance

[TecmoBengals]

In a few days, The Last Dance documentary about Jordan and the '97 - '98 Chicago Bulls concludes. Has anyone else watched this? It's been amazing and solidifies my opinion that Jordan is the NBA GOAT.

[*jason*]

(05-14-2020, 09:55 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: In a few days, The Last Dance documentary about Jordan and the '97 - '98 Chicago Bulls concludes. Has anyone else watched this? It's been amazing and solidifies my opinion that Jordan is the NBA GOAT.

Yeah... I love the never before seen footage. Jordan and the East all stars trashing a 19 year old Kobe, Michael gambling with security guards at the United Center, Jordan, Scottie, and Ron Harper drinking beer in designer suits after a game... It also really reinforces how much I miss 80s and 90s basketball. The players weren't all friends. It was physical. There was more diversity in offense. My other big takeaway is our Michael Jordan outta Ohio State needs to go by Mike or his middle name or something.... He doesn't deserve it. Same went for that Dolphins running back named Kareem Abdul-Jabbar back in the day ... GTFOH with that.

[J24]

(05-14-2020, 09:55 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: In a few days, The Last Dance documentary about Jordan and the '97 - '98 Chicago Bulls concludes.  Has anyone else watched this?  It's been amazing and solidifies my opinion that Jordan is the NBA GOAT.

How does it solidify Jordan as the Goat?

[TecmoBengals]

(05-14-2020, 10:08 PM)J24 Wrote: How does it solidify Jordan as the Goat?

I said it solidified my opinion.  The documentary has provided an additional glimpse into his drive to win which we know resulted in the championships, accolades, and his many other successes as an NBA great.  In addition to producing results, the series has added to his GOAT status by showing how he accomplished his success as an athlete, competitor, and leader.

[*jason*]

(05-14-2020, 10:08 PM)J24 Wrote: How does it solidify Jordan as the Goat?

It does nothing more than remind us that Jordan averaged 30 points for his career in one of the lowest scoring eras in NBA history. He averaged 40 a game in the 1993 finals. He was a lock down defender. He also singlehandedly diminished the memory of all time great players because of his dominance. At his peak, Charles Barkley's numbers compare favorably to Tim Duncan's. Duncan is regarded as the greatest PF in history... Beginning a streak of title runs after Jordan left the league. Today it seems laughable to argue that Barkley was equal or better. Ewing's Knicks, Stockton and Malone's Jazz, Reggie Miller's Pacers, Barkley's stacked Suns team... The Sonics... All of them come up empty. Jordan dominated a league that was still dominated by big men, and grind it out games. He also put up very solid numbers at 40 years old. There have been great players before and after Jordan, but he was playing chess while the others played checkers.

[J24]

(05-16-2020, 11:52 AM)jason Wrote: It does nothing more than remind us that Jordan averaged 30 points for his career in one of the lowest scoring eras in NBA history. He averaged 40 a game in the 1993 finals. He was a lock down defender. He also singlehandedly diminished the memory of all time great players because of his dominance. At his peak, Charles Barkley's numbers compare favorably to Tim Duncan's. Duncan is regarded as the greatest PF in history... Beginning a streak of title runs after Jordan left the league. Today it seems laughable to argue that Barkley was equal or better. Ewing's Knicks, Stockton and Malone's Jazz, Reggie Miller's Pacers, Barkley's stacked Suns team... The Sonics... All of them come up empty. Jordan dominated a league that was still dominated by big men, and grind it out games. He also put up very solid numbers at 40 years old. There have been great players before and after Jordan, but he was playing chess while the others played checkers.

LeBron has gone to 8 straight Finals, is going to be or already is the only player in NBA history to be top 10 in points and assists, and he had the greatest  NBA finals performance when he lead the Cavs over the 73 Win Warriors.
Averaged a Triple Double in those finals and lead all players in points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists.
Lebron has a strong argument for Goat regardless of the Jordan propaganda documentary that just aired.

[*jason*]

(05-21-2020, 11:13 PM)J24 Wrote: LeBron has gone to 8 straight Finals, is going to be or already is the only player in NBA history to be top 10 in points and assists, and he had the greatest  NBA finals performance when he lead the Cavs over the 73 Win Warriors.
Averaged a Triple Double in those finals and lead all players in points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists.
Lebron has a strong argument for Goat regardless of the Jordan propaganda documentary that just aired.

I'm a LeBron guy. That dude could hold his own in any era. Against those Warriors in 2015 he basically carried the Cavs by turning it into a 90s game, and muscling Golden State. I just think Jordan gets the edge, but it's not by a large margin... Just like LeBron isn't that much greater than Larry.

[samhain]

(05-22-2020, 11:23 AM)jason Wrote: I'm a LeBron guy. That dude could hold his own in any era. Against those Warriors in 2015 he basically carried the Cavs by turning it into a 90s game, and muscling Golden State. I just think Jordan gets the edge, but it's not by a large margin... Just like LeBron isn't that much greater than Larry.

Jordan brought order to the basketball universe.  There have been plenty of great players, and even a few who have been more physically gifted than MJ.  Even so, nobody's really managed to put the finals on lockdown like he did for 6 seasons.  

Your team could be having a hell of a year, just like the Jazz in the last 2 seasons, but in the end you were going to have to face him, and you were going to lose, with the exception of the year he came back from baseball.  

[BengalHawk62]

Really cool to hear Presence Tense by Pearl Jam to close out the series. Awesome song. From the GOAT of music to the GOAT of basketball.

[samhain]

(05-23-2020, 09:47 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Really cool to hear Presence Tense by Pearl Jam to close out the series.  Awesome song.  From the GOAT of music to the GOAT of basketball.

Yeah, that was a great way to end it.  I've had that song stuck in my head all week.

[J24]

(05-22-2020, 11:23 AM)jason Wrote: I'm a LeBron guy. That dude could hold his own in any era. Against those Warriors in 2015 he basically carried the Cavs by turning it into a 90s game, and muscling Golden State. I just think Jordan gets the edge, but it's not by a large margin... Just like LeBron isn't that much greater than Larry.

I can respect that but I just think lebron doesn't get the credit he deserves from most Jordan fans. Those Spurs teams & Warriors team that Lebron faced were much better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals.
Plus Lebron carried a bunch of know names to the finals in 2007, 2015(both Kyrie and Love were hurt), and 2018. 

(05-23-2020, 09:31 PM)samhain Wrote: Jordan brought order to the basketball universe.  There have been plenty of great players, and even a few who have been more physically gifted than MJ.  Even so, nobody's really managed to put the finals on lockdown like he did for 6 seasons.  

Your team could be having a hell of a year, just like the Jazz in the last 2 seasons, but in the end you were going to have to face him, and you were going to lose, with the exception of the year he came back from baseball.  

Jordan also had the best team during those runs especially during the second three peat.  Pippen and Rodman are arguably the best defenders in the history of the sport,Steve Kerr was a great 3pt shooter,and Kukoc is arguably a top 5 international player of all time.

[*jason*]

(05-23-2020, 09:31 PM)samhain Wrote: Jordan brought order to the basketball universe.  There have been plenty of great players, and even a few who have been more physically gifted than MJ.  Even so, nobody's really managed to put the finals on lockdown like he did for 6 seasons.  

Your team could be having a hell of a year, just like the Jazz in the last 2 seasons, but in the end you were going to have to face him, and you were going to lose, with the exception of the year he came back from baseball.  

Michael Jordan's Bulls eliminated more 60 wins teams than any other team in league history.

[*jason*]

(05-24-2020, 02:20 AM)J24 Wrote: I can respect that but I just think lebron doesn't get the credit he deserves from most Jordan fans. Those Spurs teams & Warriors team that Lebron faced were much better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals.
Plus Lebron carried a bunch of know names to the finals in 2007, 2015(both Kyrie and Love were hurt), and 2018. 

Jordan also had the best team during those runs especially during the second three peat.  Pippen and Rodman are arguably the best defenders in the history of the sport,Steve Kerr was a great 3pt shooter,and Kukoc is arguably a top 5 international player of all time.

It's sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, but I think Scottie Pippen is the most underrated player of all time. He had the best all around game in his prime. He guarded every position except center (he'd guard centers in today's league), and he scored without having plays run for him.

[samhain]

(05-24-2020, 02:20 AM)J24 Wrote: I can respect that but I just think lebron doesn't get the credit he deserves from most Jordan fans. Those Spurs teams & Warriors team that Lebron faced were much better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals.
Plus Lebron carried a bunch of know names to the finals in 2007, 2015(both Kyrie and Love were hurt), and 2018. 

Jordan also had the best team during those runs especially during the second three peat.  Pippen and Rodman are arguably the best defenders in the history of the sport,Steve Kerr was a great 3pt shooter,and Kukoc is arguably a top 5 international player of all time.

Jordan won 3 titles before Rodman ever showed up.  The first title team's roster wasn't anything to get excited about either, and they destroyed they Lakers.  Rodman was also run out of 2 solid locker rooms that couldn't manage him before landing in Chicago.  He wasn't exactly a hot commodity when they picked him up, and without Jordan and Phil to manage him, he's probably not in Chicago long, either.

Jordan's performances in the finals were consistently magnificent, even when he was young and developing.  His games vs an all-time great Celtics team were some of the best individual performances in league history.  Plus, he was getting physically beaten up in ways that aren't exactly legal in LeBron's NBA, where big men are largely a thing of the past and susperstars are protected like NFL quarterbacks.  LBJ didn't have the Knicks and Pistons throwing him to the ground whenever he left it.   

Jordan has the flu game, LeBron has the cramp game.  LeBron flops like no player in the history of the league to draw fouls, which probably is the thing that makes me the most critical of him.  LeBron stood before the national media and told them he was the best player in the league, then turned in an awful performance immediately after.  Kawhi absolutely outplayed Lebron when the Spurs beat the Heatles in 2014, and ran the superteam out the finals in 5 games.  Someone might have gotten the jump on MJ for a game, but never a finals in it's entirety, and never in that thorough of a fashion.  Just ask Reggie Miller and Gary Payton.  

Add to that that LBJ turns the ball over at a much higher clip than MJ, sometimes in critical situations.  Add to that that LBJ defers with the game on the line while MJ always takes the shot, and is more successful when he does.  

Lebron is no doubt one of the greatest.  He may even be the greatest from a physical standpoint.  He just isn't the same on a mental level as Jordan.  LeBron has been treated like King James since he was in grade school.  Jordan got cut from his freshman team.  Michael had something to prove even when he was the undisputed biggest celebrity on the planet.  Even if he didn't, he'd make something up in his head to get going.  I don't see that in LBJ.  He's great and he has zero problem telling you he's great (not one, not, two, not three).  

I rooted against MJ every year the Bulls were in the finals.  I'm a Spurs fan and wanted someone in the West to knock him off.  All I can say is that when Jordan was on the other end of the finals bracket in the East (which was also a better conference in MJ's time), it felt impossible.  I don't feel that way at all with LBJ.  He's proven himself beatable many times.  

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-23-2020, 09:47 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Really cool to hear Presence Tense by Pearl Jam to close out the series. Awesome song. From the GOAT of music to the GOAT of basketball.

Um... hell no.

Opinions are opinions, but when anyone in PJ has the intellectual or artistic ability to write even *2* songs up to the level that someone like Pete Townshend or Neil Peart can/did, then maybe you can have a discussion on PJ's merit.

They are a middling band at best and a shitty musical act at worst; they aren't even the best out of their genre.

(05-24-2020, 02:20 AM)J24 Wrote: I can respect that but I just think lebron doesn't get the credit he deserves from most Jordan fans. Those Spurs teams & Warriors team that Lebron faced were much better than any team Jordan faced in the Finals.
Plus Lebron carried a bunch of know names to the finals in 2007, 2015(both Kyrie and Love were hurt), and 2018. 

Jordan also had the best team during those runs especially during the second three peat.  Pippen and Rodman are arguably the best defenders in the history of the sport,Steve Kerr was a great 3pt shooter,and Kukoc is arguably a top 5 international player of all time.

While that is generally the only real knock against Jordan (being on stacked teams), it is 100% valid, IMO; they needed him and he needed them (otherwise, as history has shown, no championships), but anyone can look like an all-out star with a supporting cast like that.

I don't want to get into a discussion on the best of all-time, because the last 2 times that happened, the thread went in circles lol, but I still contend that Wilt was the best player ever and, IMO, it really isn't up for discussion.

Nobody put up the numbers, game in, game out, that he did and while MJ did single-handedly take over games at times, Wilt took over EVERY game he ever played, basically (until the Laker days, where it can be argued even then, that he was still the most-dominating player in each game he took part in).

Just wasn't fair for other players.

(05-14-2020, 07:21 PM)jason Wrote: Yeah... I love the never before seen footage. Jordan and the East all stars trashing a 19 year old Kobe, Michael gambling with security guards at the United Center, Jordan, Scottie, and Ron Harper drinking beer in designer suits after a game... It also really reinforces how much I miss 80s and 90s basketball. The players weren't all friends. It was physical. There was more diversity in offense. My other big takeaway is our Michael Jordan outta Ohio State needs to go by Mike or his middle name or something.... He doesn't deserve it. Same went for that Dolphins running back named Kareem Abdul-Jabbar back in the day ... GTFOH with that.

1. It was, "Karim."
2. He used his Muslim name, bestowed upon him by his Imam, unlike Kareem who just converted and picked his name. If it was at all intentional, I guarantee you you'd see it happen frequently (Muslim's changing their names to the same as established Muslims); even our, "Catholic Names," (which I don't have, but a TON of people do), are chosen because of a spiritual or familial connection and are bestowed upon us by a priest during confirmation, if we indeed choose to denote it.
3. He now goes by, "Abdul-Karim Al-Jabbar," since Lew sued him (which is friggin' ridiculous; he's not making money OFF of him).

The whole UCLA and #33 thing is weird though lol, but the football player did wear #33 before the name change.

[McC]

(05-14-2020, 07:21 PM)jason Wrote: Yeah... I love the never before seen footage. Jordan and the East all stars trashing a 19 year old Kobe, Michael gambling with security guards at the United Center, Jordan, Scottie, and Ron Harper drinking beer in designer suits after a game... It also really reinforces how much I miss 80s and 90s basketball. The players weren't all friends. It was physical. There was more diversity in offense. My other big takeaway is our Michael Jordan outta Ohio State needs to go by Mike or his middle name or something.... He doesn't deserve it. Same went for that Dolphins running back named Kareem Abdul-Jabbar back in the day ... GTFOH with that.

Pretty sure the guy didn't name himself.  And he probably does go by Mike to his friends.  And I'd be willing to bet there are thousands and thousands of Michael Jordans walking around this country who have probably not earned it in the strictest sense either but they have no choice but go on with their lives.  And I'd further be willing to say that being named after a legend is probably no picnic.  

[J24]

(05-24-2020, 03:26 PM)samhain Wrote: Jordan won 3 titles before Rodman ever showed up.  The first title team's roster wasn't anything to get excited about either, and they destroyed they Lakers.  Rodman was also run out of 2 solid locker rooms that couldn't manage him before landing in Chicago.  He wasn't exactly a hot commodity when they picked him up, and without Jordan and Phil to manage him, he's probably not in Chicago long, either.

Jordan's performances in the finals were consistently magnificent, even when he was young and developing.  His games vs an all-time great Celtics team were some of the best individual performances in league history.  Plus, he was getting physically beaten up in ways that aren't exactly legal in LeBron's NBA, where big men are largely a thing of the past and susperstars are protected like NFL quarterbacks.  LBJ didn't have the Knicks and Pistons throwing him to the ground whenever he left it.   

Jordan has the flu game, LeBron has the cramp game.  LeBron flops like no player in the history of the league to draw fouls, which probably is the thing that makes me the most critical of him.  LeBron stood before the national media and told them he was the best player in the league, then turned in an awful performance immediately after.  Kawhi absolutely outplayed Lebron when the Spurs beat the Heatles in 2014, and ran the superteam out the finals in 5 games.  Someone might have gotten the jump on MJ for a game, but never a finals in it's entirety, and never in that thorough of a fashion.  Just ask Reggie Miller and Gary Payton.  

Add to that that LBJ turns the ball over at a much higher clip than MJ, sometimes in critical situations.  Add to that that LBJ defers with the game on the line while MJ always takes the shot, and is more successful when he does.  

Lebron is no doubt one of the greatest.  He may even be the greatest from a physical standpoint.  He just isn't the same on a mental level as Jordan.  LeBron has been treated like King James since he was in grade school.  Jordan got cut from his freshman team.  Michael had something to prove even when he was the undisputed biggest celebrity on the planet.  Even if he didn't, he'd make something up in his head to get going.  I don't see that in LBJ.  He's great and he has zero problem telling you he's great (not one, not, two, not three).  

I rooted against MJ every year the Bulls were in the finals.  I'm a Spurs fan and wanted someone in the West to knock him off.  All I can say is that when Jordan was on the other end of the finals bracket in the East (which was also a better conference in MJ's time), it felt impossible.  I don't feel that way at all with LBJ.  He's proven himself beatable many times.  

1.) Scottie Pippen is a no doubt hall of famer and Horace Grant is criminally underrated PF for his time. The 91-93 were pretty damn good.
2.) Jordan never carried a low level roster to the Finals like Lebron did with the 07 Cavs. He might have been physically beat up but his teams were never outmatched like  Brons.
3.) LeBron scored 28.7 points per a game on 57% shooting how did Kwahi own him again?
4.) LeBron came into his career as the most hyped player from high school and lived up to it.
Yeah LeBron isn't that likeable I'll give you that but that doesn't make Jordan better at Basketball than him.

[*jason*]

(05-26-2020, 06:22 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Scottie Pippen is a no doubt hall of famer and Horace Grant is criminally underrated PF for his time. The 91-93 were pretty damn good.
2.) Jordan never carried a low level roster to the Finals like Lebron did with the 07 Cavs. He might have been physically beat up but his teams were never outmatched like  Brons.
3.) LeBron scored 28.7 points per a game on 57% shooting how did Kwahi own him again?
4.) LeBron came into his career as the most hyped player from high school and lived up to it.
Yeah LeBron isn't that likeable I'll give you that but that doesn't make Jordan better at Basketball than him.

1 Yup... Horace was a blue collar monster. People also seem to forget about BJ Armstrong and John Paxson too. Both were knock down shooters, and scrappy defenders. Really an argument could be made that the 92 team was the best incarnation of the Bulls. Jordan was still at his physical apex at the time too.

2 Correct... But I also don't recall a Michael Jordan team ever getting the brakes beat off of them, and swept either. LeBron is great enough to get you one game.

3 In 2014 the Spurs showed what a flawed roster the Heat had. That can happen when players are trying to put together their own team. Pop out coached Spoelstra, and the Spurs moved the ball beautifully. LeBron was the only guy to show up, and he certainly wasn't owned.

4 If nothing else the Last Dance showed that LeBron is infinitely more likable than Jordan. Dude could ball, but he's a dick.

But yet and still, there was an air of invincibility around Jordan that nobody has had in my lifetime. Shaq and Kobe were close in the early 2000s, but once Michael got to winning it was curtains for the rest of the NBA.

[*jason*]

(05-24-2020, 03:49 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Um... hell no.

Opinions are opinions, but when anyone in PJ has the intellectual or artistic ability to write even *2* songs up to the level that someone like Pete Townshend or Neil Peart can/did, then maybe you can have a discussion on PJ's merit.

They are a middling band at best and a shitty musical act at worst; they aren't even the best out of their genre.


While that is generally the only real knock against Jordan (being on stacked teams), it is 100% valid, IMO; they needed him and he needed them (otherwise, as history has shown, no championships), but anyone can look like an all-out star with a supporting cast like that.

I don't want to get into a discussion on the best of all-time, because the last 2 times that happened, the thread went in circles lol, but I still contend that Wilt was the best player ever and, IMO, it really isn't up for discussion.

Nobody put up the numbers, game in, game out, that he did and while MJ did single-handedly take over games at times, Wilt took over EVERY game he ever played, basically (until the Laker days, where it can be argued even then, that he was still the most-dominating player in each game he took part in).

Just wasn't fair for other players.


1. It was, "Karim."
2. He used his Muslim name, bestowed upon him by his Imam, unlike Kareem who just converted and picked his name. If it was at all intentional, I guarantee you you'd see it happen frequently (Muslim's changing their names to the same as established Muslims); even our, "Catholic Names," (which I don't have, but a TON of people do), are chosen because of a spiritual or familial connection and are bestowed upon us by a priest during confirmation, if we indeed choose to denote it.
3. He now goes by, "Abdul-Karim Al-Jabbar," since Lew sued him (which is friggin' ridiculous; he's not making money OFF of him).

The whole UCLA and #33 thing is weird though lol, but the football player did wear #33 before the name change.

You had me thinking I was being too hard on the guy... Until your last paragraph that is. I didn't know he went to UCLA too ... AND he wore number 33.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-26-2020, 11:06 PM)jason Wrote: You had me thinking I was being too hard on the guy... Until your last paragraph that is. I didn't know he went to UCLA too ... AND he wore number 33.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/karim-abdul-jabbar-1.html

Again, will mention that he STARTED at UCLA, under his legal (at the time) Muslim name, Sharmon Shah (sp?).