A TON of Pressure on Zac Taylor

[CJD]

(05-22-2020, 01:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he has not.  A ******** monkey would have taken Burrow with the number one pick and all the other guys could be busts.

I don't know how much he controls free agency, but we grossly overpaid for a Waynes while Su'a-Filo and Bynes are both backups who just played last year due to starters getting injured.   McKenzie gets a lot of love around here, but a 1 year $4 million contract shows that the rest of the league was not overly impressed with his play.

I hope all these guys work out, but so far we have no idea.  

Fine. Replace "proven he knows" with "appears to have a better idea of."

The sentiment is exactly the same. The 2020 off season was objectively better than the 2019 off season and shows improvement in both player evaluation and ability to loosen the purse strings a bit with the aim towards winning more games.

[Hammerstripes]

(05-22-2020, 01:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Exactly. It was a "let's see what we have because the season is already done" move.

Seeing how good your back ups are is not generally a move one makes when they're aiming to win games.

The conversation surrounding playing Finley was not "If we put Finley in, we'll win more games than if we had Dalton in." It was "Well, the season is already lost. I want to know just how good Finley is so we are more prepared for the 2020 draft, given we'll almost certainly have a high pick, especially if we start a rookie QB for a few games."

Maybe you're balking at the word "tanking" but I can't come up with a better way of describing what they did. They did not play Finley with the hopes of winning those games he was playing in.

Finley was only part of it.  I think losing AJ, Glenn, Boling and Jonah before the season even started doomed this team from the get go.  Having other guys go down as well made it pretty tough.

We didn't have a fire sale of people (Dalton, Atkins, Dunlap were all looked at as viable trade pieces at the deadline and not one of them was moved.)  It's hard to call it a tank job when you keep your older vets.  Hell, it's tough to call it a re-build when they did that.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(05-22-2020, 01:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Maybe you're balking at the word "tanking" but I can't come up with a better way of describing what they did. They did not play Finley with the hopes of winning those games he was playing in.

I see your point. The word "tanking" seems to have a specific connotation in the NFL, I suspect from the "tanking for Tua" stuff surrounding Miami. To me it implies "purposely losing to get the top pick and the best QB," but I can see that you meant it a little differently. 

[GreenCornBengal]

I agree. From my perspective I’ll be pretty disappointed if we don’t get 6 wins or more.

He’s an offensive minded guy who inherited one of the worst defenses in NFL history. The only way he was going to make an impact right away was by fixing the offense and the injuries derailed any chance of that happening. Last year was a wash for me.

What I’m happy to see under Zac is the complete turnover of that terrible defense. He knows he wasn’t going to turn things around by changing a few players, he turned over the majority of the defensive roster through free agency and the draft of all the LBs. we will have to see if it pans out, but at least he has gotten the franchise to make an extreme effort here, something I haven’t seen in a while.

So, reloaded defense, healthy offense, I’m still thinking anything lower than 6 wins is concerning. Year 3 he has to hit 9 or more wins. Year 4 he has to get a playoff win. That is my criteria for Zac success.

I don’t see this organization giving up on him quickly after giving Marvin 16 years, and I certainly hope that if they do can him it’s during an off season. Mid season firings never work out.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 01:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Fine. Replace "proven he knows" with "appears to have a better idea of."

The sentiment is exactly the same. The 2020 off season was objectively better than the 2019 off season and shows improvement in both player evaluation and ability to loosen the purse strings a bit with the aim towards winning more games.

Taylor does not get any credit for loosening the purse strings.  But I think the fact that they did puts even more pressure on him.

The Bengals defense over the last two seasons has been worse than any two game stretch in team history.  It obviously needed a lot more than just "tweeking".  After all the money spent on Bell, Reader, Waynes, and McKenzie if they don't show HUGE improvement in 2020 Taylor will be in big trouble.  He can't blame a rookie QB for a bad defense.

[HarleyDog]

(05-22-2020, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Total bullshit

  
More bullshit.


I am willing to give Zac some slack because of the unexpected loss of Boling, Williams, Glen and Green before the season even started.  But he did not suffer any major losses on defense and that unit was still one of the worst in Bengal history.  He definitely has not shown any sort of a "cultural change".  


I give him an "incomplete" as a grade so far, but he has not really shown anything positive at all as a head coach.

Disagree Fred. Marvin preferred Vets over rookies and he did not hold players accountable. Lack of discipline during his tenure. But it's ok, they loved their coach. Zac is going to be a win now coach. Play or GTFO! I'm surprised AJ is still around. Probably because Burrow wanted him around. Either that or there was more to the plan of him not playing at all last year that we are not privy too. As far as the incomplete grade, that's fair but I think he is starting this season off well with changes and draft. OL will be questionable until they prove us wrong.

[HarleyDog]

(05-22-2020, 02:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Taylor does not get any credit for loosening the purse strings.  

That's questionable. Sure are some good things happening since his arrival. Maybe it was part of the discussion during his hiring process. When the whole league considers the Bengals organization as cheap, I would definitely make sure it was part of the discussion If I wanted to win. Dude is not looking for a cushy 20 yr job. He wants to win.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(05-22-2020, 01:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: EXACTLY!!

I was upset that we wasn't fired after the 2017 season when we won 7 games.  And I seem to remember everyone here agreeing with me.

But now a lot of those same fans seem to think it is okay for Taylor not to win this year after getting more big money free agents than Marvin got in his entire 16 years.

Marvin never had a season as shitty as Zac's 2-14.  Both times that Marvin won as few as 4 games he made the playoffs the next season without a #1 overall pick or $140 million in new free agents.

You could have resigned.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 02:26 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: That's questionable. Sure are some good things happening since his arrival. 

Nothing "good" happened with free agency until we shit the bed and went 2-14.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 02:22 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Disagree Fred. Marvin preferred Vets over rookies and he did not hold players accountable. Lack of discipline during his tenure. But it's ok, they loved their coach. Zac is going to be a win now coach. Play or GTFO! I'm surprised AJ is still around. Probably because Burrow wanted him around. Either that or there was more to the plan of him not playing at all last year that we are not privy too. As far as the incomplete grade, that's fair but I think he is starting this season off well with changes and draft. OL will be questionable until they prove us wrong.

Marvin played as many rookies and young players as the average NFL coach.

Marvin held players accountable.  Just as John Ross.

Last year Cordy Glenn told Zac "Screw you I am not playing" even after the doctors cleared him.  Zac did nothing.

And the funniest part is that you want to give Zac credit for holding players accountable, but at the same time claim that a rookie QB bosses him around regarding AJ Green.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 02:29 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: You could have resigned.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-22-2020, 01:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Exactly. It was a "let's see what we have because the season is already done" move.

Seeing how good your back ups are is not generally a move one makes when they're aiming to win games.

The conversation surrounding playing Finley was not "If we put Finley in, we'll win more games than if we had Dalton in." It was "Well, the season is already lost. I want to know just how good Finley is so we are more prepared for the 2020 draft, given we'll almost certainly have a high pick, especially if we start a rookie QB for a few games."

Maybe you're balking at the word "tanking" but I can't come up with a better way of describing what they did. They did not play Finley with the hopes of winning those games he was playing in.

How about, "Let the Season go?"

[HarleyDog]

(05-22-2020, 02:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin held players accountable.  Just as John Ross.

The way he treated Ross was by for the worst example of coaching at any level.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 03:05 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: The way he treated Ross was by for the worst example of coaching at any level.

Then you don't believe in holding players accountable.  Ross admitted he did not know the playbook and was hiding injuries.

You can't just make stuff up out of thin air and claim it is true.

And you can't say Marvin did not hold players accountable and then criticize him for holding players accountable.

In Marvins entire 16 year tenure there was not one player who was cleared by doctors to play and refused to play.  It happened to Zac last year and he did nothing to hold that player accountable. 

[Bengalholic]

(05-22-2020, 02:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin played as many rookies and young players as the average NFL coach.

Marvin held players accountable.  Just as John Ross.

Last year Cordy Glenn told Zac "Screw you I am not playing" even after the doctors cleared him.  Zac did nothing.

And the funniest part is that you want to give Zac credit for holding players accountable, but at the same time claim that a rookie QB bosses him around regarding AJ Green.

During his first practice back, things reportedly got contentious, Glenn asked to be released and then missed the next practice. The Bengals fined him 200k and suspended 1 game for what Taylor called 'internal disciplinary reasons'. Taylor then penciled his ass into the lineup and made him play, because they didn't have a whole lot of options, and Glenn kept his mouth shut after that.

Keep in mind that you keep telling others they 'can't just make stuff up out of thin air and claim it is true'.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-22-2020, 01:00 PM)McC Wrote: I don't agree at all.  This was never going to be a one or even two year fix.

Just to be clear, "fix" in this discussion meant what he can do to instill confidence.  After the disaster that was last year, what can do he do to fix such a disastrous start to his career here.

I think most fans have a specific win total they need to see to believe we are headed in the right direction, and are trurly building something with Zac Taylor.  Fwiw, I believe that win total to be 7 wins.  But as I said, that is up to individual. 

This thread is not at all about asking him to fix the entire organazation or to expect great results in one or two years.  And I don't really think expecting 7 wins in year 2, after our FA, is asking too much .  Taylor in inherited a 6 win team, so me setting my number at 7 seems pretty reasonable to me.

[McC]

(05-22-2020, 04:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: During his first practice back, things reportedly got contentious, Glenn asked to be released and then missed the next practice. The Bengals fined him 200k and suspended 1 game for what Taylor called 'internal disciplinary reasons'. Taylor then penciled his ass into the lineup and made him play, because they didn't have a whole lot of options, and Glenn kept his mouth shut after that.

Keep in mind that you keep telling others they 'can't just make stuff up out of thin air and claim it is true'.

Others aren't allowed.  Fred is, though.   Lawyers stand behind the double standard.  It's in the same folder as the double talk.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2020, 04:51 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: During his first practice back, things reportedly got contentious, Glenn asked to be released and then missed the next practice. The Bengals fined him 200k and suspended 1 game for what Taylor called 'internal disciplinary reasons'. Taylor then penciled his ass into the lineup and made him play, because they didn't have a whole lot of options, and Glenn kept his mouth shut after that.

Keep in mind that you keep telling others they 'can't just make stuff up out of thin air and claim it is true'.

Bookmark this.

Fredtoast admits he as wrong.

All I remembered was him being cleared and then not playing for another month.  I forgot about the fine and suspension.

[Bengalholic]

(05-22-2020, 05:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just to be clear, "fix" in this discussion meant what he can do to instill confidence.  After the disaster that was last year, what can do he do to fix such a disastrous start to his career here.

I think most fans have a specific win total they need to see to believe we are headed in the right direction, and are trurly building something with Zac Taylor.  Fwiw, I believe that win total to be 7 wins.  But as I said, that is up to individual. 

This thread is not at all about asking him to fix the entire organazation or to expect great results in one or two years.  And I don't really think expecting 7 wins in year 2, after our FA, is asking too much .  Taylor in inherited a 6 win team, so me setting my number at 7 seems pretty reasonable to me. 

Of the previous 31 teams that went 2-14, only 7 of them managed to win at least 7 games the next year. However, with the additions in free agency and the drafting of Burrow, I think I agree though, 7 wins seems pretty reasonable.

[sandwedge]

I don't think there is any more pressure than normal to succeed. I still believe we are headed in the right direction.