Joe speaks out

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-07-2020, 05:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: People say the right wing is racist the way they say the left wing is anti-whites, males, straight people, the wealthy and so on.  Liberals are quite often labeled as people who are angry with, or out to get specific demographics of people.

This.

IMHO, one of the biggest problems we have in this country is that we let the extremes of each political side come to define the vast majority of people who actually lie somewhere in between.

Most "liberals" are not left-wing nuts who support groups like Antifa, or subscribe to the use of 185 preferred pronouns.  Converserly, most conservatives aren't bible thumpers who don't believe in things like evolution, and who are secretly huge racists.

I truly believe, even still, that the overwhelming majority of Americans are good people.  Good people, regardless of individual political stances.

A lot of the divide these days is media driven, where it's hyper-political 24/7 news streams designed to draw ratings.  If you view this channel or read this publication, it slants in a way where it becomes an echo-chamber.  And the same is true for the alternative.

Then you when couple the above with social media it becomes even more slanted.  People align themselves "socially" online the same way they do to source their news. They surround themselves with a hive-think, my "side" is right.  This is that side, this is this side.  But that's not at all reality.

I read a stat once that 90% of the posts on Twitter are made up by only 10% of it's users.  To me that's pretty damn crazy.  And it becomes even more so when you consider, I'm guessing, that only about 50% of our population even had account.  So the political divide and crazy trends you're seeing on a site like Twitter represent  about 6% of our population.  What's trending on the right or left side on Twitter is not at all an accurate representation of actual debate.

People really need to just go out and more, and experience real life. Social media is not real life.  Embrace interaction and discussion.  Share your politics when asked if you want, and conversely keep them to youself if you'd like.  I think they'll find the majority of us have way more in common then what the media and social media leads us to believe.

Intelligent and rational Americans aren't a check-list of ideologies that you can cross off just by who they voted for.  A person can be Pro-Choice and support the 2nd Ammendment.  A person can support LGBT rights and be fiscally conservative.  People need to stop painting everyone into a corner, and convinces themselves they know everything about someone just because they disagree on a single issue.

Sorry for the rant, and to Nately as I'm not sure I really needed to veer of here.  But what he says here is so true, and it really gets on my nerves.  Not all "conservatives" are racists and not all "liberals" are "It's Ma'am" dude from Gamestop incarnate.  Most people are completely normal and share little with the extremes of their respective political parties.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2020, 05:50 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I see your point. The bad thing is that debate usually quickly turn to arguments and no progress ever gets made in this world. The crazy thing is that both sides usually has some valid points that get lost in the arguments and the whole thing stays a circle.

I don't claim to be the wisest or most likable fellow, but I can say that I've actually left a debate with an altered point of view and/or new things to consider.  Discussion, debate, and disagreements are only as valuable as you want them to be, I suppose. 

(06-07-2020, 06:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Sorry for the rant, and to Nately as I'm not sure I really needed to veer of here.  But what he says here is so true, and it really gets on my nerves.  Not all "conservatives" are racists and not all "liberals" are "It's Ma'am" dude from Gamestop incarnate.  Most people are completely normal and share little with the extremes of their respective political parties.

I read you loud and clear.  The thing is, we are socially and biologically programmed to align ourselves with "our side" and view "the other side" with knee-jerk decisions and labels.  Even acknowledging our bias towards being, well...biased, it's hard to get around and face the agony of possibly being wrong about something.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-06-2020, 05:39 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: There's ample evidence of protesters stopping looters/vandals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeopleDieInside/comments/guvlgu/streamer_tells_protesters_to_flip_truck_then/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwidobZU1oY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Al_OCpYFk
https://www.foxla.com/video/690357
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8375121/Protesters-LA-NY-Washington-DC-stop-looters-raiding-stores.html

Meanwhile, 57 police officers resigned from their post on the emergency response team (the team that principally responds to riots and to "protect" peaceful protests) in protest when 2 police officers were suspended (and subsequently charged) for assaulting a peaceful protester on camera.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/05/buffalo-new-york-police-officers-suspended-shoving-man-ground/3153626001/

The vast majority of protesters (and supporters of protesters) condemn the rioting and looting but acknowledge that it is an inevitable consequence of the oppression of the voiceless.

It's like what Martin Luther King Jr. said:

The people who don't like the rioters will often only quote the first paragraph, FWIW.

Ignoring the peaceful protests creates the violent protests, which in turn makes the peaceful protests look much more reasonable by comparison. It's a cycle that has repeated over the course of human history. Hopefully, we break that cycle the next time peaceful protests occur in the future and just listen, rather than condemn.

I have always loved MLK Jr. Great man. Thanks for that quote CJD. I agree with it completely.

It is different with Antifa though, they are paid, some have said so. They are fascist supporters saying they are the exact opposite.

Happens a lot with the Left. They say they are Progressives while they are Regressives cause the Liberal word hurts them after 
showing what they really are. They just change their name to something new, happens over and over again. I have seen so called
environmentalists come here to Wyoming and throw huge parties and shit everywhere in the forests and leave it for everyone else
to clean up. Hypocrisy beyond imagination and it gets worse everyday.

Same with Antifa, they run around with masks, thinking people don't know who they are and threaten and actually attack vets,
hit innocent God loving Americans with pipes and harass people in Cities all over the country and people put up with it. Will never
understand this. I know there are good people in these protests but it does no good when they let Antifa take over and commit
violence.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-06-2020, 09:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In my uneducated opinion, I think police complaints are probably a lot like bad Yelp reviews. Some of them are spot on and some of them are complete BS. I think Chauvin was disciplined twice for complaints. Not sure how egregious the infractions were. So I don’t have enough information to judge if he should have already been kicked off the force.

Have you heard one protester support Antifa? Or violence?

The Buffalo police gave a 70-something protester a skull fracture for no good reason then lied about and claimed he tripped and fell. If it wasn’t for the video we wouldn’t know the pushed him causing the head injury.

You just don't march with people who are committing violence, pretty simple.

Show your outrage and speak out against Antifa who are evil bastids just like the cops that killed Floyd.

Sad I don't remember the black cop who was killed but I just remember Floyd's name.

(06-07-2020, 12:29 AM)samhain Wrote: It's fun to watch the right buy the ANTIFA narrative, hook, line, and sinker.  Meanwhile, actual federal law enforcement, aka the FBI continues to reiterate that there's little if any evidence to indicate major involvement by the POTUS's new boogeymen.  

It's a made up designation to throw red meat to the base, nothing more.  More proof that people will believe drivel if  they want it to be true.

Always liked you Sam, but Antifa is real and there are videos of these same people attacking innocent Americans all over YouTube.

Watch the Portland Antifa videos, same people over and over wearing masks attacking people with pipes, bats, knives for years.

A lot of these people are the same guys and girls. I have seen them, they are scum and should of been thrown in jail years ago.

Saw a guy in Portland call out one of them and they went out and fought fair and square and he beat the crap out of the Antifa 
dude and later got hit in the head with a pipe while his back was turned and the cops took the innocent dude to jail for his own 
safety instead of arresting the guilty party. Happens all the time in these Socialist ran cities.

[Circleville Guy]

(06-07-2020, 07:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't claim to be the wisest or most likable fellow, but I can say that I've actually left a debate with an altered point of view and/or new things to consider.  Discussion, debate, and disagreements are only as valuable as you want them to be, I suppose. 

All of us should want to learn and evolve. Too many people stick to their opinions like they are facts. I believe in freedom of the press but shouldn’t there also be accountability? I can’t remember seeing any national news stories of whites killed by police. If someone only sees stories in the media of only black people killed by cops then it gives the impression that they are the only ones getting killed. It just always feels to me that the media pushes division. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t believe that Mr. Floyd was murdered or that there are problems between the black community and law enforcement. That problem is very broad though and we’re not permitted to discuss the whole picture. We’re allowed to say that cops are killing blacks and that is it. There needs to be higher standards to becoming a P.O. and this bs of all cops backing each other regardless needs to end. Nothing good is ever gonna happen from resisting arrest though.... for anyone. I’m not saying that it justifies anything that comes after. I’m just saying that it’s never gonna lead to anything good. It does feel like half of the cops become cops because they get off on having power over others. I don’t know what the answer is but it’s a deep problem. I know that people say that we are all the same but cultures are different and races are different, I think that there will always be strife.


I read you loud and clear.  The thing is, we are socially and biologically programmed to align ourselves with "our side" and view "the other side" with knee-jerk decisions and labels.  Even acknowledging our bias towards being, well...biased, it's hard to get around and face the agony of possibly being wrong about something.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2020, 05:50 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I can’t remember seeing any national news stories of whites killed by police.

Does this one count?

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/city-of-columbus-looking-into-osu-grads-death-after-she-was-reportedly-sprayed-with-tear-gas-at-a-protest/

[samhain]

(06-07-2020, 08:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You just don't march with people who are committing violence, pretty simple.

Show your outrage and speak out against Antifa who are evil bastids just like the cops that killed Floyd.

Sad I don't remember the black cop who was killed but I just remember Floyd's name.



Always liked you Sam, but Antifa is real and there are videos of these same people attacking innocent Americans all over YouTube.

Watch the Portland Antifa videos, same people over and over wearing masks attacking people with pipes, bats, knives for years.

A lot of these people are the same guys and girls. I have seen them, they are scum and should of been thrown in jail years ago.

Saw a guy in Portland call out one of them and they went out and fought fair and square and he beat the crap out of the Antifa 
dude and later got hit in the head with a pipe while his back was turned and the cops took the innocent dude to jail for his own 
safety instead of arresting the guilty party. Happens all the time in these Socialist ran cities.

They are indeed real, but evidence for their involvement, according to federal law enforcement is scant at best.  It's made up to fire up the far-right base.  That's it.  I know youtube and social media far right talking heads probably have the inside scoop vs the FBI and the vast resources at their disposal, but I'm going to go ahead and believe the feds over the far right this time.

You possess views sympathetic to the far right philosophy, so the ANTIFA narrative is something that you gravitate to.  Simple as that.  If the feds or any real law enforcement agency tracking developments over the last couple of weeks provide real evidence that ANTIFA is a major player, then by all means go after them.  Until then, it's bullshit for Trumpers to get worked up about and nothing more.

EDIT:  
Another important point:  Since 9-11 white nationalists have been responsible to somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 killings in the US.  Other ethnic nationalist groups are responsible for I think 14, maybe 16.  ANTIFA is responsible for exactly zero.  None.  Not one documented killing.  Yet the white nationalists get a free pass from the right and an organization that only loosely exists becomes the new AL Quaeda.  It's a joke, really.

[Circleville Guy]

(06-07-2020, 08:52 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Does this one count?

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/city-of-columbus-looking-into-osu-grads-death-after-she-was-reportedly-sprayed-with-tear-gas-at-a-protest/

No it doesn’t. It actually says local news at the very top. I specifically said National news. Even if you can find one or two that got a little National play, are you seriously trying to say that it’s close to the same level of National play that is reported when a black dies by a cop? If almost twice as many whites in total number are killed by cops, shouldn’t twice as many make National news? Or at least equal? I’m just saying that the media runs with this to push the divide. They seem excited about the looting and destruction that they have also contributed to. I’m not defending cops, I’m just saying that most cops that are demented probably would treat a white as badly as they treat a black. You don’t have to be racist to be demented. Even the loser that murdered Mr. Floyd had complaints for beating up white people too.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2020, 09:07 PM)samhain Wrote: They are indeed real, but evidence for their involvement, according to federal law enforcement is scant at best.  It's made up to fire up the far-right base.  That's it.  I know youtube and social media far right talking heads probably have the inside scoop vs the FBI and the vast resources at their disposal, but I'm going to go ahead and believe the feds over the far right this time.

Social media and far right talking heads eh? Lol

Don't see many of them around or straight talking Feds lately ha ha.

Thanks for the laugh though broth. 

I saw vids of liberal women talking about how terrible Antifa was, it is not a left or right thing, it is a evil versus good thing.

Evil people attack people, good people peacefully protest. There is no middle ground.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2020, 09:12 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: No it doesn’t. It actually says local news at the very top. I specifically said National news. Even if you can find one or two that got a little National play, are you seriously trying to say that it’s close to the same level of National play that is reported when a black dies by a cop? If almost twice as many whites in total number are killed by cops, shouldn’t twice as many make National news? Or at least equal? I’m just saying that the media runs with this to push the divide. They seem excited about the looting and destruction that they have also contributed to. I’m not defending cops, I’m just saying that most cops that are demented probably would treat a white as badly as they treat a black. You don’t have to be racist to be demented. Even the loser that murdered Mr. Floyd had complaints for beating up white people too.

Yep.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2020, 09:07 PM)samhain Wrote: They are indeed real, but evidence for their involvement, according to federal law enforcement is scant at best.  It's made up to fire up the far-right base.  That's it.  I know youtube and social media far right talking heads probably have the inside scoop vs the FBI and the vast resources at their disposal, but I'm going to go ahead and believe the feds over the far right this time.

You possess views sympathetic to the far right philosophy, so the ANTIFA narrative is something that you gravitate to.  Simple as that.  If the feds or any real law enforcement agency tracking developments over the last couple of weeks provide real evidence that ANTIFA is a major player, then by all means go after them.  Until then, it's bullshit for Trumpers to get worked up about and nothing more.

EDIT:  
Another important point:  Since 9-11 white nationalists have been responsible to somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 killings in the US.  Other ethnic nationalist groups are responsible for I think 14, maybe 16.  ANTIFA is responsible for exactly zero.  None.  Not one documented killing.  Yet the white nationalists get a free pass from the right and an organization that only loosely exists becomes the new AL Quaeda.  It's a joke, really.

White Nationalists are scum too BTW.

Don't try and lump me in with them, major insult Samhain. Quit that stuff, you are above it.

[samhain]

(06-07-2020, 09:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Social media and far right talking heads eh? Lol

Don't see many of them around or straight talking Feds lately ha ha.

Thanks for the laugh though broth. 

I saw vids of liberal women talking about how terrible Antifa was, it is not a left or right thing, it is a evil versus good thing.

Evil people attack people, good people peacefully protest. There is no middle ground.

It's practically all manufactured.  The right can't effectively attack BLM anymore without real consequences in public perception, so they came up with a new scary group to rally against.  

Get some silver bullets and wooden stakes.  Maybe you can go after vampires and werewolves when you're done fighting other pretend bad guys.

[samhain]

(06-07-2020, 09:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: White Nationalists are scum too BTW.

Don't try and lump me in with them, major insult Samhain. Quit that stuff, you are above it.

I'm not lumping you in with anything.  I'm just pointing out the narrative about what groups should be described as threats to Americans.  People get mad about one that exists in rhetoric, but not the ones that actually are vocal about and semi-effective at killing Americans.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2020, 09:12 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: No it doesn’t. It actually says local news at the very top. I specifically said National news. Even if you can find one or two that got a little National play, are you seriously trying to say that it’s close to the same level of National play that is reported when a black dies by a cop? If almost twice as many whites in total number are killed by cops, shouldn’t twice as many make National news? Or at least equal? I’m just saying that the media runs with this to push the divide. They seem excited about the looting and destruction that they have also contributed to. I’m not defending cops, I’m just saying that most cops that are demented probably would treat a white as badly as they treat a black. You don’t have to be racist to be demented. Even the loser that murdered Mr. Floyd had complaints for beating up white people too.

Hmm you're right.  Im actually floored the liberal media isn't having a field day with a young female protestor being killed by the police. 

I know the old white guy in Buffalo having his head cracked open is big news, but this woman flat out dying isn't a big deal.  Weird. People are usually more inclined to care about white women being victimized.  

[*bfine32*]

Still proud?

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2020, 01:04 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’m with bfine, this has turned into a non-Junglenoise thread. It started with Joe but it’s so far off track...

I once got suspended because I posted a thread in JN asking was anyone interested in a baseball fantasy league; because I didn't "clear it". Yet here we are 17 pages in. 

[CJD]

(06-07-2020, 08:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I have always loved MLK Jr. Great man. Thanks for that quote CJD. I agree with it completely.

It is different with Antifa though, they are paid, some have said so. They are fascist supporters saying they are the exact opposite.

Happens a lot with the Left. They say they are Progressives while they are Regressives cause the Liberal word hurts them after 
showing what they really are. They just change their name to something new, happens over and over again. I have seen so called
environmentalists come here to Wyoming and throw huge parties and shit everywhere in the forests and leave it for everyone else
to clean up. Hypocrisy beyond imagination and it gets worse everyday.

Same with Antifa, they run around with masks, thinking people don't know who they are and threaten and actually attack vets,
hit innocent God loving Americans with pipes and harass people in Cities all over the country and people put up with it. Will never
understand this. I know there are good people in these protests but it does no good when they let Antifa take over and commit
violence.

I don't support Antifa, but I don't think they're fascists either. Fascism has a very specific definition that I don't think Antifa matches in any way. They aren't a nationalist "organization" (I put it in quotes because Antifa isn't even an organization. They're just a categorization of left wing groups that believe roughly the same thing that the ends justifies the means in stopping fascism). In fact, a wide variety of them are anarchists. They aren't in favor of authoritarianism or racial/religious hierarchies. They target almost exclusively white supremacists and Neo Nazis such as Richard Spencer (who was infamously punched mid interview by an Antifa member) and the Unite the Right rally, which was teeming with Neo Nazis and white supremacists. 

They are just violent extremists. Extremists who believe using violence to stop fascism and right wing authoritarianism (such as sicking the military and national guard on peaceful protesters) is justified. They don't subscribe to any ideology other than stopping fascists and white supremacists at all costs.

You could make the argument that they miss the mark, in that they identify too many people as white supremacists and Neo-Nazis. In fact, I'd agree with that argument.

But the idea that people who believe in dismantling white supremacy would intentionally try to de-legitimize protests against white supremacy by rioting and looting during those protests just doesn't pass the smell test. 

And, thus far, the evidence that they have been active participants in the vandalism and rioting is almost non-existent. This reeks of Trump looking for a scapegoat and being more than happy to blame a group that identifies with the far left rather than the far right.

I don't doubt that there are some Antifa among the protesters just like I don't doubt there are some right wing agitators among the crowd as well, but I think the majority of the vandalism and looting is simply opportunists and criminals.

As Time reported:

Quote:The Associated Press analyzed court records, employment histories, social media posts and other sources of information for 217 people arrested last weekend in Minneapolis and the District of Columbia, two cities at the epicenter of the protests across the United States.

Rather than outside agitators, more than 85% of those arrested by police were local residents. Of those charged with such offenses as curfew violations, rioting and failure to obey law enforcement, only a handful appeared to have any affiliation with organized groups.

Those charged with more serious offenses related to looting and property destruction – such as arson, burglary and theft – often had past criminal records. But they, too, were overwhelmingly local residents taking advantage of the chaos.

Social media posts indicate only a few of those arrested are left-leaning activists, including a self-described anarchist. But others had indications of being on the political right, including some Trump supporters.

https://time.com/5849592/antifa-far-right-violent-trump-protesters/

In addition, the protests have calmed WAY down this past weekend and I think they will continue to trend that way over time. The rioting and looting was reported widely because it was much more interesting than peaceful protests but it seems, by almost all accounts, it was in the minority in terms of action going on over the past 13 days.

Don't let the looting cloud your judgement. These peaceful protests are doing great things and should be lauded.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2020, 09:21 PM)samhain Wrote: It's practically all manufactured.  The right can't effectively attack BLM anymore without real consequences in public perception, so they came up with a new scary group to rally against.  

Get some silver bullets and wooden stakes.  Maybe you can go after vampires and werewolves when you're done fighting other pretend bad guys.

So all those people I watched getting attacked in Portland is all manufactured...

I guess when I was actually in Portland watching dudes get tazed on the street was also manufactured...

It is all pretend, wow.  

Go stick your head in the sand. I will fight for my country, the monsters are not vamps and werewolves they are Socialists.

Same as Hitler who they label Trump as even though he is the exact opposite. And I disliked Trump before he was elected.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2020, 09:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't support Antifa, but I don't think they're fascists either. Fascism has a very specific definition that I don't think Antifa matches in any way. They aren't a nationalist "organization" (I put it in quotes because Antifa isn't even an organization. They're just a categorization of left wing groups that believe roughly the same thing that the ends justifies the means in stopping fascism). In fact, a wide variety of them are anarchists. They aren't in favor of authoritarianism or racial/religious hierarchies. They target almost exclusively white supremacists and Neo Nazis such as Richard Spencer (who was infamously punched mid interview by an Antifa member) and the Unite the Right rally, which was teeming with Neo Nazis and white supremacists. 

They are just violent extremists. Extremists who believe using violence to stop fascism and right wing authoritarianism (such as sicking the military and national guard on peaceful protesters) is justified. They don't subscribe to any ideology other than stopping fascists and white supremacists at all costs.

You could make the argument that they miss the mark, in that they identify too many people as white supremacists and Neo-Nazis. In fact, I'd agree with that argument.

But the idea that people who believe in dismantling white supremacy would intentionally try to de-legitimize protests against white supremacy by rioting and looting during those protests just doesn't pass the smell test. 

And, thus far, the evidence that they have been active participants in the vandalism and rioting is scant at best. This reeks of Trump looking for a scapegoat and being more than happy to blame a group that identifies with the far left rather than the far right.

I don't doubt that there are some Antifa among the protesters just like I don't doubt there are some right wing agitators among the crowd as well, but I think the majority of the vandalism and looting is simply opportunists and criminals.

As Time reported:


https://time.com/5849592/antifa-far-right-violent-trump-protesters/

In addition, the protests have calmed WAY down this past weekend and I think they will continue to trend that way over time. The rioting and looting was reported widely because it was much more interesting than peaceful protests but it seems, by almost all accounts, it was in the minority in terms of action going on over the past 13 days.

Don't let the looting cloud your judgement. These peaceful protests are doing great things and should be lauded.

Hey CJD, love yah man. But George Soros is a real man who is a fascist and pays these people.

This is not conspiracy, it is fact.

Violence on either side is wrong but Antifa attacks black people and liberals the same as white people.

These people hate America and want chaos. They are cowards and I see them in different cities doing the same thing.

They have pipes, knives and are being trained. It is organized.

Peaceful protests should be lauded but these are anything but peaceful. Sorry.

[CJD]

(06-07-2020, 09:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So all those people I watched getting attacked in Portland is all manufactured...

I guess when I was actually in Portland watching dudes get tazed on the street was also manufactured...

It is all pretend, wow.  

Go stick your head in the sand. I will fight for my country, the monsters are not vamps and werewolves they are Socialists.

Same as Hitler who they label Trump as even though he is the exact opposite. And I disliked Trump before he was elected.

Hitler wasn't a socialist. The Nazi's called themselves the worker's party to attract the people to their cause of nationalism and racial/religious hierarchies. Just like you said Antifa call themselves progressives but are actually regressives, Hitler was an authoritarian militant who claimed to be a populist socialist in order to gain power. It's the same game.