Let's not sleep on Auden Tate in the WR mix

[fredtoast]

It amazes my how so many Bengal fans act like thye have never seen a WR over 6'4" before. Everytime some tall scrub shows up in training camp he is immediately a great red zone weapon. The fact is that big slow guys like Auden Tate are a dime a dozen. It takes A LOT MORE than just being tall to be an effective WR.

Tate put up numbers last year becasue our WR corps was shredded with injury. He will barely see the field this year unless we are hit hard with injuries again.

[impactplaya]

(06-03-2020, 09:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It amazes my how so many Bengal fans act like thye have never seen a WR over 6'4" before.  Everytime some tall scrub shows up in training camp he is immediately a great red zone weapon.  The fact is that big slow guys like Auden Tate are a dime a dozen.  It takes A LOT MORE than just being tall to be an effective WR.

Tate put up numbers last year becasue our WR corps was shredded with injury.  He will barely see the field this year unless we are hit hard with injuries again.

I've seen alot of 6'4 WRs come into NFL and are out of the league in 4 tears or at best 5th stringers,. James Hardy...Jake Kumerow...Tyrone Calico..Stephen Hill. 

Auden Tate by your estimation wasn't even supposed to make the final 53 last year 
I saw,by many that the great Cody Core was supposed to make the roster over Tate 

Your not a Auden Tate fan. To each his own.
But to say he only put up numbers cause of injuries is really shallow thinking 
You know what you would have said if Tate dropped everything .....
" we had injures last year and Tate had his chance to put up numbers but he failed 
To do so" 
Like it or not Auden produced last year and was one of the few guys on the offense that 
Didn't regress. 
If it was all about injuries and what not why hasn't Alex Erickson done more ? 
He's had a million chances to step up and be a difference maker.
Erickson gets all this love on here for not doing too much.

Auden Tate may never become a dominating WR but the fact remains he made plays last year when 
His number was dialed up.and having 2 very inconsistant QB last year 
One who panicked when the pocket closed and the other who has the arm of 7th grade backup 

[Whatever]

(06-03-2020, 02:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I've seen alot of 6'4 WRs come into NFL and are out of the league in 4 tears or at best 5th stringers,. James Hardy...Jake Kumerow...Tyrone Calico..Stephen Hill. 

Auden Tate by your estimation wasn't even supposed to make the final 53 last year 
I saw,by many that the great Cody Core was supposed to make the roster over Tate 

Your not a Auden Tate fan. To each his own.
But to say he only put up numbers cause of injuries is really shallow thinking 
You know what you would have said if Tate dropped everything .....
" we had injures last year and Tate had his chance to put up numbers but he failed 
To do so" 
Like it or not Auden produced last year and was one of the few guys on the offense that 
Didn't regress. 
If it was all about injuries and what not why hasn't Alex Erickson done more ? 
He's had a million chances to step up and be a difference maker.
Erickson gets all this love on here for not doing too much.

Auden Tate may never become a dominating WR but the fact remains he made plays last year when 
His number was dialed up.and having 2 very inconsistant QB last year 
One who panicked when the pocket closed and the other who has the arm of 7th grade backup 

Uh, Erickson had more catches and yards last year than he did in his first 3 years combined.  He actually had more catches and a higher catch % than Tate.  Ross also set career highs for catches and yards.  Boyd also set career highs for both catches and yards.  I don't see how you can argue that Tate was the only guy who showed progress.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-03-2020, 02:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I've seen alot of 6'4 WRs come into NFL and are out of the league in 4 tears or at best 5th stringers,. James Hardy...Jake Kumerow...Tyrone Calico..Stephen Hill. 

Auden Tate by your estimation wasn't even supposed to make the final 53 last year 
I saw,by many that the great Cody Core was supposed to make the roster over Tate 

Your not a Auden Tate fan. To each his own.
But to say he only put up numbers cause of injuries is really shallow thinking 
You know what you would have said if Tate dropped everything .....
" we had injures last year and Tate had his chance to put up numbers but he failed 
To do so" 
Like it or not Auden produced last year and was one of the few guys on the offense that 
Didn't regress. 
If it was all about injuries and what not why hasn't Alex Erickson done more ? 
He's had a million chances to step up and be a difference maker.
Erickson gets all this love on here for not doing too much.

Auden Tate may never become a dominating WR but the fact remains he made plays last year when 
His number was dialed up.and having 2 very inconsistant QB last year 
One who panicked when the pocket closed and the other who has the arm of 7th grade backup 

Do you mean to imply you still have to face the same defense no matter why you're playing ?   

This team has been one of the worst offenses in the red zone for the majority of their games the last couple seasons.  I guess they all suck because all they are is tall, lol.

Who knows what Tate will be able to do with Burrow and the new offense ? I doubt he's going to have everybody saying Jerry Rice who ? But that doesn't mean he can't be a contributor that's more a part of the solution than the problem.

[WhodeyRay]

(06-03-2020, 04:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Do you mean to imply you still have to face the same defense no matter why you're playing ?   

This team has been one of the worst offenses in the red zone for the majority of their games the last couple seasons.  I guess they all suck because all they are is tall, lol.

Who knows what Tate will be able to do with Burrow and the new offense ? I doubt he's going to have everybody saying Jerry Rice who ? But that doesn't mean he can't be a contributor that's more a part of the solution than the problem.

Funny you say Jerry Rice because Tate actually ran a faster 40 than Rice. He also ran a faster 40 than Anquan Bolden who I think he has a lot of similarities to. Not all receivers need to be be burning fast. They need to run good routes and use there body properly. Look at Gronk. Pats put him out wide a lot as a reciever and he is no Ussain Bolt. He used his size to match up on small corners and safeties. Tate could be a deadly weapon with a bright offensive mind calling plays. Kyle Shanahan would find a way to use this weapon for sure.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-02-2020, 02:16 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Saw Auden Tate really making some positive news
Over the weekend which was awesome to read
The drafting of Tee Higgins and AJ Greens
Return has added some juice and electricity
To the WR room.
I think forgeten about is how Auden Tate factor
In the scheme of things this year

Last year Tate had #2 CBs across from him at the LOS.
Despite all that he averaged 14.4 YPC and make great highlight
Reel grabs from bad QB most of the year
If the WR room stays healthy this year
I expect Tate to possibly get less targets but
More TDs this year
He will be facing the 4th CB on the depth chart at times
You figure Tate can win those battles downfield
I expect Tate to be a real factor in the red zone this year

Auden should be used in the Red Zone all the time IMO.

Definitely think he scores way more TD's than his lone one last year regardless if we use him this way.

And yeah, Auden doing that against #2 CB's last year should mean he can feast on #4's this year.

[Whatever]

(06-03-2020, 09:11 PM)WhodeyRay Wrote: Funny you say Jerry Rice because Tate actually ran a faster 40 than Rice. He also ran a faster 40 than Anquan Bolden who I think he has a lot of similarities to. Not all receivers need to be be burning fast. They need to run good routes and use there body properly. Look at Gronk. Pats put him out wide a lot as a reciever and he is no Ussain Bolt. He used his size to match up on small corners and safeties. Tate could be a deadly weapon with a bright offensive mind calling plays. Kyle Shanahan would find a way to use this weapon for sure.

Rice's 40 time has been reported to be as low as 4.45.  Bill Walsh reported it as 4.59 after the 9'ers drafted him.  Keep in mind that official combine numbers were not released in Rice's day, so any numbers that would have leaked would have been hand timed by teams.  He is generally credited as running 4.55-4.59.  Plus, that was over 30 years ago.  Athletes are faster and better trained for the combine drills than they were back then.

Boldin was considered a potential 1st round talent that fell into the 2nd because of a disastrous combine.  His film was miles better than Tate's and any speed concerns there were got erased when he was the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year.  They didn't linger til year 3.  He also had 6 40+ yard receptions as a rookie.  Tate has 0 through 2 seasons.  It's safe to say that had better football speed that Tate.

You don't necessarily have to be a burner to be a great NFL WR, but that doesn't mean every slow as molasses one tool player teams take a flyer on in the 7th is an All Time Great.  Teams have to at least respect you going deep.

[Whatever]

(06-03-2020, 09:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Auden should be used in the Red Zone all the time IMO.

Definitely think he scores way more TD's than his lone one last year regardless if we use him this way.

And yeah, Auden doing that against #2 CB's last year should mean he can feast on #4's this year.

Tate caught only 5 of 14 red zone targets last year, including 1 of 7 inside the 10.  He only caught 1 of 3 red zone targets as a rookie, making him 6 of 17 for his career.  He has one career TD.  In 2 years, he's been nothing but a liability inside the red zone.  With Green, Boyd, Ross, and Higgins in front of him, he's shown nothing to deserve more red zone looks.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-03-2020, 09:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It amazes my how so many Bengal fans act like thye have never seen a WR over 6'4" before.  Everytime some tall scrub shows up in training camp he is immediately a great red zone weapon.  The fact is that big slow guys like Auden Tate are a dime a dozen.  It takes A LOT MORE than just being tall to be an effective WR.

Tate put up numbers last year becasue our WR corps was shredded with injury.  He will barely see the field this year unless we are hit hard with injuries again.

Can we drop the "he's big and slow" narrative?  When you portray that, it's almost like you're attempt to paint him as some overweight, lumbering OL.. 

4.68 isn't slow, just means he's not as quick out of the blocks.  He's a long stride runner, and has as good of a top speed as any player on the field.  He can counter that lack of exceptional short are quickness, by working hard on running precise routes, and using his size and exceptional body control to win the battle for the ball.

If opposing DCs and DBs discount him as much as you do, I'd say that he'll have a productive season.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-04-2020, 07:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Can we drop the "he's big and slow" narrative?  When you portray that, it's almost like you're attempt to paint him as some overweight, lumbering OL.. 

4.68 isn't slow, just means he's not as quick out of the blocks.  He's a long stride runner, and has as good of a top speed as any player on the field.  He can counter that lack of exceptional short are quickness, by working hard on running precise routes, and using his size and exceptional body control to win the battle for the ball.

If opposing DCs and DBs discount him as much as you do, I'd say that he'll have a productive season.

Many people fall into the media hype trap. If WR X isn't a world class sprinter he isn't any good, can't get any separation, and it's a very false narrative.

Michael Thomas ran a 4.57 forty, slow by the talking heads evaluations, he's doing ok I believe. If you listed the top 25 WR's of all time a good chunk of them would be considered on the slow side.

There's way more to being an accomplished WR than just being able to out run a cheetah. There's a fellow on our team who will agree I'll bet.

[fredtoast]

(06-04-2020, 08:49 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Many people fall into the media hype trap. If WR X isn't a world class sprinter he isn't any good, can't get any separation, and it's a very false narrative.

And some people fall ionto the trap than any of the million or so young men taller than 6'4" can be a good NFL wide receiver.

There are dozens of different things that make a great WR.  Speed is not the only one, but when a player lacks speed he has to be exceptional at something else.  Tate is not exceptional at anything else.  

That is why he was not a great WR in college.  

That is why all 32 teams agreed he was no better than a 7th round pick.

He just is not that good of a WR, and it is absurd to claim that every tall WR taken in the 7th round can be turned into Rob Gronkowski with just the proper coaching.  If all it took was coaching I am sure the Patriots would have a new Gronk by now.

[impactplaya]

(06-04-2020, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And some people fall ionto the trap than any of the million or so young men taller than 6'4" can be a good NFL wide receiver.

There are dozens of different things that make a great WR.  Speed is not the only one, but when a player lacks speed he has to be exceptional at something else.  Tate is not exceptional at anything else.  

That is why he was not a great WR in college.  

That is why all 32 teams agreed he was no better than a 7th round pick.

He just is not that good of a WR, and it is absurd to claim that every tall WR taken in the 7th round can be turned into Rob Gronkowski with just the proper coaching.  If all it took was coaching I am sure the Patriots would have a new Gronk by now.

I'm gonna pull a Fred here and look up a stat 

Auden Tate was 26th in the NFL with averaging 14.4 YPC
you know who averaged less than him 
Speedsters such as 
Will Fuller
Brandon Cooks 
Deebo Samuel 
Phil Dorsett 
Marquis Brown 
Odell Beckham 

Tate was 2nd in the North behind James Washington 
And it's all the more accomplishment that Tate didnt run alot
Of vertical routes or deep posts 
And all those WRS I listed had better QBs than Tate had last 
Year 
So don't you tell me Auden Tate isn't a good WR sir. 
Does it really matter 31 teams passed on Tate ?
Totally stupid logic.
If Tate is so subpar as a WR then explain to me from the 
Rolling Hills of Tennessee how Tate averaged 14.4 YPC?
Quite a jump from his 2018 YPC. 

[*ochocincos*]

Auden Tate, John Ross, AJ Green, and Alex Erickson are all in a contract year.
The Bengals drafted Higgins high so they likely will find ways to get him involved, limiting Tate's, Ross's, and/or Erickson's snaps.
I'm willing to bet only 1-2 of those guys will be a Bengal beyond this year, as the Bengals won't pay all of them.
For Tate to stay a Bengal beyond this year, he will have to outperform both John Ross and Alex Erickson.

[GreenCornBengal]

(06-04-2020, 10:40 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm gonna pull a Fred here and look up a stat 

Auden Tate was 26th in the NFL with averaging 14.4 YPC
you know who averaged less than him 
Speedsters such as 
Will Fuller
Brandon Cooks 
Deebo Samuel 
Phil Dorsett 
Marquis Brown 
Odell Beckham 

Tate was 2nd in the North behind James Washington 
And it's all the more accomplishment that Tate didnt run alot
Of vertical routes or deep posts 
And all those WRS I listed had better QBs than Tate had last 
Year 
So don't you tell me Auden Tate isn't a good WR sir. 
Does it really matter 31 teams passed on Tate ?
Totally stupid logic.
If Tate is so subpar as a WR then explain to me from the 
Rolling Hills of Tennessee how Tate averaged 14.4 YPC?
Quite a jump from his 2018 YPC. 

One correction here, 32 teams actually passed on him...

[Whatever]

(06-04-2020, 07:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Can we drop the "he's big and slow" narrative?  When you portray that, it's almost like you're attempt to paint him as some overweight, lumbering OL.. 

4.68 isn't slow, just means he's not as quick out of the blocks.  He's a long stride runner, and has as good of a top speed as any player on the field.  He can counter that lack of exceptional short are quickness, by working hard on running precise routes, and using his size and exceptional body control to win the battle for the ball.

If opposing DCs and DBs discount him as much as you do, I'd say that he'll have a productive season.

https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Auden&l=Tate&i=28241

He doesn't have good top end speed, though.  When you look at Tate's percentiles by position, he's in the 21st percentile in the 10 yard split and the 14th percentile in the overall 40.  Now, those are both terrible numbers, but he's actually better at the start than he is running full speed.  Darrin Simmons has also acknowledged this, stating that he can't use him in roles you would typically use a WR on ST's in due to his lack of speed.  He's not a guy with build up speed.  He's just slow.

What's also interesting is he has 6 QB's in his list of 10 combine profiles that match him the closest and one of them is Carson Palmer.

[Whatever]

(06-04-2020, 10:40 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm gonna pull a Fred here and look up a stat 

Auden Tate was 26th in the NFL with averaging 14.4 YPC
you know who averaged less than him 
Speedsters such as 
Will Fuller
Brandon Cooks 
Deebo Samuel 
Phil Dorsett 
Marquis Brown 
Odell Beckham 

Tate was 2nd in the North behind James Washington 
And it's all the more accomplishment that Tate didnt run alot
Of vertical routes or deep posts 
And all those WRS I listed had better QBs than Tate had last 
Year 
So don't you tell me Auden Tate isn't a good WR sir. 
Does it really matter 31 teams passed on Tate ?
Totally stupid logic.
If Tate is so subpar as a WR then explain to me from the 
Rolling Hills of Tennessee how Tate averaged 14.4 YPC?
Quite a jump from his 2018 YPC. 

Because he doesn't have the short area quickness to run short routes and he's a liability in the red zone.  When you only get the ball on intermediate routes, you'll put up a good ypc average next to guys that are running the full route tree and can actually produce in the close quarters of the red zone.  

How many TD'S did those other guys have?  What was their catch %?  How many catches did they have?  How many yards?  Good in one cherry picked stats doesn't mean the player is good.

Besides, if it's all about ypc, then Ross's ypc blows Tate's out of the water.  

[fredtoast]

(06-04-2020, 10:40 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I'm gonna pull a Fred here and look up a stat 

Auden Tate was 26th in the NFL with averaging 14.4 YPC

You should have looked a little deeper.

Last year there were 77 WRs with at least 32 receptions.  Among those 77 Tate ranked
77th in catch percentage
71st in tds
61st in yards per target.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-03-2020, 10:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: Tate caught only 5 of 14 red zone targets last year, including 1 of 7 inside the 10.  He only caught 1 of 3 red zone targets as a rookie, making him 6 of 17 for his career.  He has one career TD.  In 2 years, he's been nothing but a liability inside the red zone.  With Green, Boyd, Ross, and Higgins in front of him, he's shown nothing to deserve more red zone looks.

How much of this was on the accuracy of the QB though? I saw Auden make some circus catches last year where the throw was just
terribly inaccurate. Plus AJ and Ross haven't been able to stay healthy which is where Auden gains his relevance here.

[Whatever]

(06-04-2020, 03:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: How much of this was on the accuracy of the QB though? I saw Auden make some circus catches last year where the throw was just
terribly inaccurate. Plus AJ and Ross haven't been able to stay healthy which is where Auden gains his relevance here.

Auden Tate was tied for the second lowest catch % on the Bengals last year.  Mind you, that's not just among WR's.  That's among all players that were targeted with passes.  The catch % for the entire team was 60.4%.  Tate's was 50%.  The only player with a worse catch % on the team was Stanley Morgan.

Tate catches passes at a rate over 10% worse than the team as a whole.  You can't blame the QB for a guy who's making catches at a less than average rate compared to his teammates.

The reality if you look at his highlights is that most of these spectacular grabs are back shoulder throws where Tate is smothered by the defender and the QB is forced to throw away from the defender.  They look more spectacular because he likes to jump and rotate in the air rather than break down and use his feet to adjust his body position.  But he's making highlight reel grabs because he can't get the separation to to make routine looking ones.

[Whatever]

(06-04-2020, 01:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You should have looked a little deeper.

Last year there were 77 WRs with at least 32 receptions.  Among those 77 Tate ranked
77th in catch percentage
71st in tds
61st in yards per target.

I hear he ranks 1st in off-season hype threads among WR's that have caught less than half of their career targets, though.