Bengal TE strategy

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-30-2020, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They don't walk on water.  They aren't perfect.  But anyone here who thinks he is as qualified as an NFL scout in judging talent is kidding himself.

Doesn't make them stupid either like you insinuate.

Lots of people on here watch a TON of film.

I sure have seen some stupid scouting and coaching in my time, don't know about you.

You defend nearly EVERY stupid scouting or coaching it seems.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-30-2020, 06:38 PM)EatonFan Wrote: Not sure about that.  Ross would be a good shallow cross option using his speed to outrun LBs and the CB across from him (if man to man).

Ever since I saw him slide on a play early in the year I have a sneaking suspension that the dude is scared to death to get hit.  If you run him underneath I have a feeling we'd see even more dropped balls, and even more injuries.

Personally, if he does see the field, I'd have what he does best.  Run deeps routes and keep the defense honest.  Hopefully he opens up the field a bit and you can't have others hit the seams.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-30-2020, 07:56 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Ever since I saw him slide on a play early in the year I have a sneaking suspension that the dude is scared to death to get hit.  If you run him underneath I have a feeling we'd see even more dropped balls, and even more injuries.

Personally, if he does see the field, I'd have what he does best.  Run deeps routes and keep the defense honest.  Hopefully he opens up the field a bit and you can't have others hit the seams.

Have been a Ross supporter from the beginning but have to agree.

Use him to scare Defenses and open up other Receivers and if they don't pay attention make them pay.

He has seemed mentally weak out there at times. Not the type to run routes over the middle taking hits.

[impactplaya]

The TE position has gone through a radical change over the past 15 years. TEs now coming
Out of college are pass catchers 1st and run blockers 2nd.
The days of the triple option wish bone or Veer attacks are relics . The Bengals could
Have drafted Sample in RD 4. No coach or OC was salivating over Sample cause he Block
Well except ZT. I'm sure Sample was surprised he went so high.
He was,never part of the passing game at Washington. Trust me WSU or Oregon coaches
Weren't losing sleep over Samples ability to manipulate secondaries with his pass catching
And route running

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-30-2020, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, I remember Margus Hunt.  Anyone can find a bad draft pick with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

I also remember that this year you had the 27th pick in the first round, Jordan Brooks, rated as a fourth rounder.

Want me to go back and check all your mocks from previous years to see if you are really smarter than NFL scouts?  

Like you wrote earlier, you have no idea how the other teams had them rated. Without knowing how all the teams had them rated you can’t judge how well or poorly SHRacerX’s evaluation were.

[J24]

While I agree that drafting Sample in the 2nd Rd was a bit suspicious. That doesn't mean he won't be a good player in the NFL. The thing that got him drafted was his blocking ability so his worth will never be truly appreciated if he becomes a good player.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-30-2020, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I apologize.  I had not idea you were interviewing college coaches and reviewing the medical records of these college prospects.


All I absolutely know to be 100% true is that you have no idea how actual NFL teams rank these players.  Your mock drafts prove that.  So you have no idea if Sample was rated as a fourth round pick by all the other NFL teams or not.

So when you say he was drafted two rounds too early you have no credibility.

And I am finished with this subject.

Glad you are done with the subject, but you are going to get my two cents...because you gave yours and although your debates tend to try and avoid a rebuttal, I will respond.

I have spoken to college coaches.  Many of them.  Not the Urban Meyer's of the world, mind you, but some smaller school coaches and assistants at higher levels.  Reviewing the medical records would be a HIPPA violation, so bringing that up is just dumb.   Scouting is a hobby of mine.  A passion.  I absolutely love watching a game that I have no dog in the fight but I am looking for hidden talent.  I try to focus more on rounds 3 and beyond because a lot of the round 1-2 talent is fairly consensus among teams.  Sure, within round 2 there will be teams that have player A rated above player B, but a lot of teams have the same round grades on players overall.

Players are given a grade of a round, and then they are stacked against each other in each round.  I had a fourth round grade on Sample.  Of course I had no idea if Sample was rated a fourth round pick by other teams....I never said I did?  I simply said he was drafted two rounds too early based on DRAFT EQUITY.  His grade (in my book) was mid-fourth round because of several factors:  He had minimal pass-catching experience, he played against a poor-defense conference, and the positional value of MY TEAM would place him mid-fourth round in my analysis.

If the only way to gain credibility in scouting is to know where other teams had him ranked, then NO ONE HAS ANY CREDIBILITY according to you.   And that is fine.  Sit alone on your hill and cast stones at anyone that has an opinion that differs from yours, but you tired accusations leave you as the one with no credibility.  

[fredtoast]

(07-31-2020, 01:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Like you wrote earlier, you have no idea how the other teams had them rated. Without knowing how all the teams had them rated you can’t judge how well or poorly SHRacerX’s evaluation were.

I am not the one claiming I know more about the draft than the Bengals.  So I don't have to prove that I do.

But I will point out that SHRacerX had the 27th pick of the first round rated as a fourth rounder.

Anyone can make any claim they want regarding their own evaluation.  SHRacerX is entitled to claim that he had Sample rated lower, but he can't say things like "The Bengals could have gotten Sample in the 4th round".

[fredtoast]

(07-31-2020, 10:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: If the only way to gain credibility in scouting is to know where other teams had him ranked, then NO ONE HAS ANY CREDIBILITY according to you.  

EXACTLY!  

That is why you will never here me claim that a player we took in the 2nd round would have still been available in the 4th.  None of us know how the other teams have players rated.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-31-2020, 01:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Like you wrote earlier, you have no idea how the other teams had them rated. Without knowing how all the teams had them rated you can’t judge how well or poorly SHRacerX’s evaluation were.

He also kindly forgot to mention that I was drafting him in Rd 4 because he was available then.  I had a second round grade on him.  He rated higher than the LB from Clemson in some matters according to PFF.  We were drafting at the beginning of Rd 4, and that was where I selected him multiple times.  I just had a higher rating on some of the WR class, and I consistently went for more offensive line help. 

He was the 27th overall pick, and I kept mocking him at pick 107.  Fred took that to mean that I had a fourth round grade on him.  It didn't.  It simply meant that at the fourth round selection, he was the highest rated player remaining that was a position of need.  As he repeatedly pointed out (as sage as water being wet) that I didn't know where other teams had him ranked.  He was a later round pick BY MANY before the combine and he shot up the charts.  The cool thing about SIMs is they use a previously submitted player ranking by someone like Bucky Brooks or some former NFL scout to stack up the players for the other teams.  Of course it is just a projection, that is why you never just say:  This is who I want in Rd 1, Rd 2, Rd 3, etc, because those players could very well be gone.  Who do you have fourth round grades on?  Can you get them a round later because a player from round 3 dropped?  That is the fun of the SIM.  

Sorry for the rant.  Just wanted to clarify the point of the evaluation of one's projections.  The only real way is to look at rankings vs career after four years.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-31-2020, 10:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: EXACTLY!  

That is why you will never here me claim that a player we took in the 2nd round would have still been available in the 4th.  None of us know how the other teams have players rated.

Hear, not here.  Again, that is not at all what I said.  My point was that I would not have used a 2nd round pick on Sample because I didn't feel he was worth that equity, but a lot of other players were.  If he wasn't there in the fourth round, that is not a problem.  And I have not been debating the fact that he would have been available then at all.  I have said, consistently, that MY ranking on his was mid-fourth round.  Got it yet?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-31-2020, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not the one claiming I know more about the draft than the Bengals.  So I don't have to prove that I do.

But I will point out that SHRacerX had the 27th pick of the first round rated as a fourth rounder.

Anyone can make any claim they want regarding their own evaluation.  SHRacerX is entitled to claim that he had Sample rated lower, but he can't say things like "The Bengals could have gotten Sample in the 4th round".

Please share where I have Brooks rated as a fourth rounder.

If I drafted him in a SIM at the top of Rd 4, it was because he was the highest rated player still remaining on the board at that time.  The SIM was just a projection using player rankings from different sources that were generally created before the combine.  Brooks killed the combine and shot up boards.  

[Sled21]

(07-30-2020, 07:56 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Ever since I saw him slide on a play early in the year I have a sneaking suspension that the dude is scared to death to get hit.  If you run him underneath I have a feeling we'd see even more dropped balls, and even more injuries.

Personally, if he does see the field, I'd have what he does best.  Run deeps routes and keep the defense honest.  Hopefully he opens up the field a bit and you can't have others hit the seams.

I don't think it's fear of getting hit. We have seen Ross make tremendous catches while getting blown up in the end zone and hang onto the ball, so I don't think it is so much about him being afraid to get hit. I think his troubles are that he is thinking too much about what he's going to do after he catches the ball instead of focusing on catching it. He is good in the end zone, he sucks mid field.

[fredtoast]

(07-31-2020, 10:30 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Please share where I have Brooks rated as a fourth rounder.

If I drafted him in a SIM at the top of Rd 4, it was because he was the highest rated player still remaining on the board at that time.  The SIM was just a projection using player rankings from different sources that were generally created before the combine.  Brooks killed the combine and shot up boards.  

Here

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-SHRacerX-I-lied-and-did-another-Mock?pid=858672&highlight=brooks#pid858672


No mention of a SIM.  Just a straight up mock draft with you selecting picks by "prioritizing them with similar grade talent".  And this mock was a full month AFTER Brooks  "shot up the boards" with his combine results.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-31-2020, 10:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-SHRacerX-I-lied-and-did-another-Mock?pid=858672&highlight=brooks#pid858672


No mention of a SIM.  Just a straight up mock draft with you selecting picks by "prioritizing them with similar grade talent".  And this mock was a full month AFTER Brooks  "shot up the boards" with his combine results.

It is CLEARLY a SIM.  Notice the grades by the draft site?  I don't waste time with "I'm selecting all first round picks in seven rounds".  Not realistic.  It was a SIM making him a steal in Rd 4.  And the evaluations that were done for the SIMs were (as previously stated) done months before the combine.  And I didn't call him a fourth rounder.  I selected him in the fourth (first pick of the fourth) because I couldn't pass him up after addressing the QB, WR, and offensive line.  I didn't see the need for a LB to be drafted before Rd 3 given the addition of Bynes and the ascension of Pratt.  I also am unsure if we had even lost Vigil at this point.  Get it yet?

Oh, and Burrow went #1 overall.  That was easy.

Denzel Mims went late in the 2nd round (#59 overall)

Robert Hunt went pick 39 of Rd 2,  and I had us taking him at the top of Rd 3 (because he was still available in the SIM) at pick 65

Tanner Muse went at pick #100 in Rd 4, and I had us taking him at pick 147 in Rd 5

Stephen Sullivan was drafted in Rd 7 by the Seahawks (trading with Miami for that pick) #251 overall and I had us taking him at #180 in Rd 6

James Smith-Williams was drafted by the Redskins in Rd 7 at # 229 overall and I had the Bengals taking him at #215 overall in Rd 7.

Doesn't look like my evaluations were that far off...

[fredtoast]

(07-31-2020, 12:54 PM)SHRacerX Wrote:   And the evaluations that were done for the SIMs

Doesn't look like my evaluations were that far off...

If the evaluations were done by the SIMS then they weren't your evaluations at all.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-31-2020, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the evaluations were done by the SIMS then they weren't your evaluations at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wmHVHTCKzw&ab_channel=BasGentleman

View at 1:12


I can't even try to explain any further.  Congrats.  I give up.  Can't believe a guy like yourself that seems to think he knows something about everything doesn't have a clue as to what a draft SIM is.  

[*ochocincos*]

(07-29-2020, 04:48 PM)pally Wrote: John Ross does not have the physicality for that position.  It is not even close.  Slot takes away his speed which is supposed to be his biggest weapon

I actually somewhat disagree with this.

Ross not only has elite deep field speed but he has elite agility, footwork, and burst to get open quickly. That is an asset for playing in the slot.

Why slot could also be useful at times for Ross is that typically you are going on shorter routes and getting the ball in your hands quicker. And it's been known that Ross is dangerous with the ball in his hands.
Not only that, you typically have less jump ball situations in the slot, of which Ross is not built for. Those 50-50 balls typically happen more for WRs on the outside.

Receivers also typically have a higher catch percentage when operating out of the slot because of the reasons above. While people have (justified) concerns with Ross's ability to catch the ball, it's worth noting that he dropped only 6 of 105 catchable balls in his last two seasons in college. https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-john-ross-wr-washington

Perhaps he will be more like he was in college if he is used by a more creative playcaller and with a more accurate QB.

[fredtoast]

(07-31-2020, 02:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I actually somewhat disagree with this.

Ross not only has elite deep field speed but he has elite agility, footwork, and burst to get open quickly. That is an asset for playing in the slot.

Why slot could also be useful at times for Ross is that typically you are going on shorter routes and getting the ball in your hands quicker. And it's been known that Ross is dangerous with the ball in his hands.
Not only that, you typically have less jump ball situations in the slot, of which Ross is not built for. Those 50-50 balls typically happen more for WRs on the outside.

This.

Andrew Hawkins had a really good season for us playing out of the slot.  He was only 5'2", but he had great change-of-direction and agility.

[*Synric*]

(07-31-2020, 02:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I actually somewhat disagree with this.

Ross not only has elite deep field speed but he has elite agility, footwork, and burst to get open quickly. That is an asset for playing in the slot.

Why slot could also be useful at times for Ross is that typically you are going on shorter routes and getting the ball in your hands quicker. And it's been known that Ross is dangerous with the ball in his hands.
Not only that, you typically have less jump ball situations in the slot, of which Ross is not built for. Those 50-50 balls typically happen more for WRs on the outside.

Receivers also typically have a higher catch percentage when operating out of the slot because of the reasons above. While people have (justified) concerns with Ross's ability to catch the ball, it's worth noting that he dropped only 6 of 105 catchable balls in his last two seasons in college. https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-john-ross-wr-washington

Perhaps he will be more like he was in college if he is used by a more creative playcaller and with a more accurate QB.

Agreed and even in the slot a WR will still chances at deep post and corner routes. John Ross's elite speed and agility would be a great combination with the slots 2-way go and set back from the line more often. 

Thing is while Boyd is one of the best slot receivers in football he doesn't have the greatest outside versatility and Auden Tate could really develop into that big slot role.